I have no idea... It must be a lot however, and new ones are being born all the time...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Or more specifically: Religions which base salvation at least partly on works Religions which base salvation completely on faith. Ben
*Originally posted by KalvinB Religions which base salvation at least partly on works Religions which base salvation completely on faith.* Are you listing both of those in the false category or are you listing both of those in the true category? *Originally posted by Stretch Would that one true religion be the Roman Catholic faith? * Not likely, given the fact that they can't decide how many Jesuses there are, and that they can't decide who the redeemer is.
Whoops Tony1 Roman Catholismn is the oldest surviving Christian denomination. The Biblical canon (divine word of god) was voted in by their council. All present mainstream Christian denominations (Eastern Orhodox, Protestant and Lutheran and other) are ofshoots of the original Catholic Church. Who then, if all these denominations worship the same god, is the keeper of the true flame? And why? Take care.
One is true one is false. "who carries the flame" Every individual believer. The Catholic church uses a different Bible than the rest of the Christian church. Ben
Well, that's obvious .... It seems that the "rest of the Christian church" simply took the Catholic Bible and crossed out a few words here and there, mostly in the form of entire books of said Bible. What I don't recall ever hearing about is any effort to double-check those books suppressed by Catholics for legitimacy, and I find that interesting. Perhaps it's time for the "rest of the Christian church" to take up all relevant writings, sit down, and argue with each other about which is which and what's legitimate and what's not. The only rule here, of course, since we're observing the Catholic/Christian dichotomy, is like the game Boggle: if anyone else has come to the same conclusion, you have to cross it out. By the time y'all get done, you'll have a library much like the Catholic body of works philosophical, and maybe then we can put this stupid Christian/Catholic schism to rest. Let me know when the Big Project starts. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
You mean start the "big project" *again*. Just because the Catholics didn't adhere to the findings the first time around doesn't mean we need to do it all over again. All the books considered for the canon are freely available on the net. The apocrypha is what I was refering to. The Catholics kept it in their Bible hundreds of years ago despite the fact a council dismissed it as non scriptural. You can also find original manuscripts if you'd like to go through them and see what was originally written. Why not study the first time the "big project" was undertaken before claiming we need to do it again just because some power hungry church didn't accept the results? Ben
*Originally posted by Stretch Roman Catholismn is the oldest surviving Christian denomination.* The Catholic church is the oldest surviving counterfeit of Christianity. *The Biblical canon (divine word of god) was voted in by their council.* Nobody gets to vote on the word of God. When Jesus referred to "scripture," he was talking about the writings which existed long before the Catholic church ever did. *All present mainstream Christian denominations (Eastern Orhodox, Protestant and Lutheran and other) are ofshoots of the original Catholic Church. Who then, if all these denominations worship the same god, is the keeper of the true flame? And why?* The key to the answer is in the phrase, "if all these denominations worship the same god." 1. They don't all worship the same God. 2. If they are offshoots of the RCC and teach the same things, then they are counterfeits, also. 3. The true church consists of people, not organizations or buildings. 4. Those people are those who, like Peter, realize that Jesus is the son of the living God. And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 16:16,17, KJV).
Consistency? Integrity? Because the whole Catholic/Christian split is stupid and pure-grade horsepucky. It's only important for those who, like Tony1 and others, cannot express what their faith is and therefore must express what it is not. Since the most complete composite of Christian faith extant is Catholocism, it is the natural target for these nay-faithers. If there is a sincere Catholic/Christian split then it does not do well to hold the Catholic canon less a few books; the canon should be rebuilt, free of Catholic considerations. It's merely a matter of consistency. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
What about other religions? Other than christianity, as hinduism for example , do you think that is totally nonsense, or can you see any value in that too? Because the basic thought in every religion is in essence the same.
*Originally posted by tiassa Because the whole Catholic/Christian split is stupid and pure-grade horsepucky.* It's too bad it's real. You can't come up with any real arguments against anything, because you have finely honed your attacks against Catholicism. Since that turned out to be like tilting at windmills, you're stuck with weapons but no target. BTW, why do you think the Catholic Church was invented? Hint: it was to sidetrack people like you who can't tell real from counterfeit. *Since the most complete composite of Christian faith extant is Catholocism, it is the natural target for these nay-faithers. If there is a sincere Catholic/Christian split then it does not do well to hold the Catholic canon less a few books; the canon should be rebuilt, free of Catholic considerations.* The books aren't counterfeits, the religion is. The books exist independently of Catholicism. And regardless of the intentions of the Catholics, if God wants the book a certain way, he gets it a certain way. Even the Catholics understand that. Read their statements on fallibility. *Originally posted by Bebelina hinduism for example , do you think that is totally nonsense, or can you see any value in that too? Because the basic thought in every religion is in essence the same. * The basic thought in every counterfeit religion is the same, for sure. Do you see any value in your life? Do you consider counterfeit currency as having the same value as the real? Hinduism is specifically designed to create demon-possession in people. It works well for that, which is why the concept of reincarnation popped up in India. With Hinduism as the main religion there, demons simply got to announce, "free room and board available here." Human beings somehow get "reincarnation" out if that.
[/]Hinduism is specifically designed to create demon-possession in people.[/i] That is a very broad statement tony1. First of all 'hinduism' is not a religion as such, 'hindu' describes the people of a certain vacinity. The term hindu came about from the time of the Arab invation of India, they described the people who lived across the river 'sindu' as 'sindus', but the way they articulated the 's' made it sound like 'h', hence the word 'hindus. The proper religion of India, in fact, the world at one time is called 'sanatam dharma', the, souls, eternal occupation. The people were/are called viashnavs. Could you state how you came to this conclusion of demon possesion. It works well for that, which is why the concept of reincarnation popped up in India. Reincarnation did not 'pop up' as you say, it is a part of Gods (material) nature. It is a very integral part, that is why religious scripture, including the Bible has been edited. If people understood perfectly what 'karma and reincarnation' was about, it would be very bad for buisness. As the embodied soul, continuosly passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. Bhagavad Gita. 2:13 And the Lord formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed life into his nostrils: and man became a living soul Genisis. 3:7 Here it is said clearly that man was made before God breathed life into him. He made man out of the dust mixed with water (clay), it wasn't until God breathed life into him he became alive. So man is part matter and part spirit. As God is the Supreme Spirit we, who are alive are part and parcel of the Supreme. God is eternal, therefore we must also be eternal. So when we have used up our bodies, we must accept another body. With Hinduism as the main religion there, demons simply got to announce, "free room and board available here." Human beings somehow get "reincarnation" out if that. Are you saying that only hindus suffer from demonic possession? You must try and understand what 'demon' means. Love. Jan Ardena.
*Originally posted by Jan Ardena That is a very broad statement tony1. First of all 'hinduism' is not a religion as such,* Sort of true, but hinduism is yoga, and yoga is hinduism. The biggest missionary organization in the world is called Vishva Hindu Parishad and somehow I don't think they are preaching that people should change their ethnicity. *Could you state how you came to this conclusion of demon possesion.* I studied yoga at one time. *If people understood perfectly what 'karma and reincarnation' was about, it would be very bad for buisness. * LOL!!! No kidding! If people knew that reincarnation was only for demons and couldn't possibly be for people, it would be "bad for business," alright. Yoga schools would shut down. Hinduism, the religion, would disappear. Entire publishing companies would go under. *As the embodied soul, continuosly passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. Bhagavad Gita. 2:13* Major confusion as to what a soul is. The word should be "spirit." And, of course the spirits that the Gita is talking about, do go into another body at death. Nobody who believes in yoga ever casts out any demons, so they stay there until the host dies. In other areas of the world, where Christianity exists, demons get cast out, so they don't always get to stick around until the death of the host. *So man is part matter and part spirit. As God is the Supreme Spirit we, who are alive are part and parcel of the Supreme. God is eternal, therefore we must also be eternal. So when we have used up our bodies, we must accept another body.* Not really. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7, KJV). And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27, KJV). *Are you saying that only hindus suffer from demonic possession?* Far from it. The religion of hinduism seems to be one of the earliest organized efforts to get people demon possessed en masse. There are plenty of other demonized people around. And since some ethnic Hindus are Christians, plenty of Hindus are not possessed at all. Simply read some of the posts on this forum. You'll notice demonic manifestations quite regularly. The ones here don't completely incapacitate people, since those people can still operate their computers, in a way.
Ehmm... but Tony... Tony1 Quote Tony1 "The Catholic church is the oldest surviving counterfeit of Christianity." Are you privy to evidence of the non-counterfeit situation before Constantine (circa 300 CE) proclaimed Christianity the official Roman faith, which subsequently grew into the predominant faith of the Western world? Please share your historic documentation with me. Remember, according to the historical record, before the Roman Catholic Church was established, there was no such thing as an universal "Christian Church". Protestantism and Lutherismn is a "direct" offshoot of Roman Catholismn. Please provide evidence of your statement above. Take care.
Various ... So if I have you correctly, I'm a Catholic who has finely honed my attacks against Catholocism? To what have you sacrificed your intellect, Tony1? That assertion actually is funny, Tony1 ... too bad I don't like laughing at people's natural stupidity; oh, wait, you choose to be a Christian, so I can laugh at your elected stupidity. To the other, I just caught the Gorillaz Rock da House video last night, and there's nothing you can say for the next week that will keep me laughing as Murdoch smacking cannon-launched billiard balls around the room with his g-string codpiece. This is probably true; the most part of Christianity seems to distract people--Christian and infidel alike--from the important things in life. You're accurate in your statement, albeit a little too narrowly. Right. God wants the book that way. That's why he gave it to the Catholics to figure out. All the Protestants have done is cross out some words; they've never undertaken a wholesale reconstruction of the Word of God. It seems lazy at best, ignorant and shortsighted at worst. That's why they're not Protestants, and why they're not solitaries like yourself. Re: Hindu I'm actually more inclined toward American post-Hinduism; while there have been attempts to break the caste system in India, Hindu ideas in the US have had more success in breaking those traditional confines. Part of this is because the leaders of that movement "understood" (in their minds) certain things about their faith. A friend of mine went on a (classical) Hindu kick for a while; despite the intricate imagery, the layers of enigma, and the general delight of the puzzle, it led back to a system which supports unsatisfactory expressions of the godhead, and insofar as I can tell, this is why American Hindu systems are in the states they are in. Charlatans abound, supposed gurus who are no better than the televangelists who beg people for money and favors, justified by their mission from God. The most prominent Hindu outlets in the US are not, in fact, Hindu, but something unique to the west. I might say, of my friend, that he is in much better shape across the board since he abandoned Hindu for Buddhism. (He was much better off as a Hindu than he was as an embittered atheist, and better off as an embittered atheist than he was as a Seventh-Day Adventist; bottom line, there seems to be some progress involved, so I'm not inclined to worry about it; he's a good friend and a fun guy to smoke with.) The American Hindu operations are generally low-key; the most prominent, such as the Self-Realization Fellowship, are not necessarily Hindu, as the founding guru rarely if ever referred to himself as Hindu. Even among groups like the SRF, there is still a tendency to attempt to control historical information; "fair" biographies of Yogananda usually come from outside the SRF, for instance. You'll find a number of odd ideas among the post-Hindu movement in the US; for instance, Swami A. C. Bhaktivedanta (something-or-another whose name I can't recall entirely), part of the "Krishna consciousness" movement, maintains the old-school edict that a woman is truly free only when bound to her husband. But in general, it seems that accepting Hindu as a religion in any form requires a change of conscious patterns that is quite fundamental and seems strange to xenophobic Americans. Some of it even makes sense, such as the time Yogananda advised a disciple that he should not have opened a door for a woman burdened with parcels; a better respect arose from the trust that people are capable of taking care of themselves. (It is most likely that Y was hounding after the sexism of the act: would the disciple have opened the door for a man burdened with packages? Courtesy must ensure that it does not manifest as prejudice.) So that's my two cents on Hinduism. I'll even plug a book for this one: Trout, Polly. Eastern Seeds, Western Soil: Three Gurus in America. Mayfair, 2001. Really, it's a good book ... I promise. thanx all, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
*Originally posted by Stretch Are you privy to evidence of the non-counterfeit situation before Constantine (circa 300 CE) proclaimed Christianity the official Roman faith, which subsequently grew into the predominant faith of the Western world? Please share your historic documentation with me.* The Bible. *Remember, according to the historical record, before the Roman Catholic Church was established, there was no such thing as an universal "Christian Church".* And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (Colossians 1:18, KJV). The body is the church. The RCC is just some religious organization. *Protestantism and Lutherismn is a "direct" offshoot of Roman Catholismn. Please provide evidence of your statement above.* Luther was indeed a member of the RCC. He did protest against it. Other than that, what does the RCC and "direct offshoots" of it have to do with Christianity? *Originally posted by tiassa So if I have you correctly, I'm a Catholic who has finely honed my attacks against Catholocism?* From what I've seen, that's the most common kind. And, it is funny, but in a sad sort of way. *Charlatans abound* Really? *He was much better off as a Hindu than he was as an embittered atheist, and better off as an embittered atheist than he was as a Seventh-Day Adventist; bottom line, there seems to be some progress involved* I guess, in some strange way some demons are "better" than others.
Toni1 There is no mention of the word 'Hindu' in the Vedas, or any of the commentries on the Vedas, along with the point that hindus differ in their beliefs, I cannot see how you can regard hinduism as a religion. The word soul, in vedic scripture is translated as 'Atma' the eternal self, 'spirit' is the nature of the soul. Even though the body is made up of material elements, you would regard it as 'human' instead of 'matter'. Yoga means to 'link' with the Supreme Being. Are you perhaps mixing yoga with meditation. Nowadays, yoga means just bodily exercise. I can see how you come to the conclusion, that yoga allows demons to possess you, but you are mixing 'yoga' with Buddist meditation, which teaches you that you can control the mind and senses by concentrating on a void, thereby forcing them to be subdued, allowing your body open to possession, when in trance. That is not 'yoga'. Yoga teaches you how to control the senses and mind practically, by offering everything to God, thereby releiving you of karmic debt, even though that is not the ultimate goal. It is no different in the Christian faith where Jesus accepts all sins of people who put thier faith, words and deeds in him. The only trouble with christianity nowadays, is that people take Jesus for granted, they take part in sin, and then pray to Jesus to save them, by accepting their sinful activities. Rather like an elephant who, after washing himself clean in the river, immediately goes and muddy himself up again. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
