Boring KalvinB, Is there any way you can simply answer the question, in a mature rational manner ... WHY IS THE BIBLE CONFUSING AND CONTRADICTORY? WHY IS CHRISTIANITY DIVERSE AND DISSECTED, SPLIT INTO HUNDREDS OF FACTIONS AND CULTS? Quote Stretch "I only wish I could recieve a really clear answer regarding the confusing and contradictory state of the Bible" Quote KalvinB "Um...I dunno...try reading it. There are two ways to study the Bible. The most common is to come up with a doctrine and then prove it. The other is to just read the Bible and go from there. I used a method I call Concordance Theology which works well if you know what you're doing. To start you have to reject everything you believe as wrong. Well, then there's your way. Go to a skeptics site and read the thousands of "contradictions" and just throw your hands up in the air. Way to think for yourself. Way to show that you really want to know what the Bible says. "Why Tony and I dissagree" Because contradictory to what you may believe Christians do have to think for themselves. There comes a point when a person should realize that you can't trust anyone to tell you the truth. It's not like distrusting a stranger. It's a respectful distrust. Acts 17:11 I suppose I should print that out for you. Wouldn't want to waste your energy by forcing you to look it up. I'm sure you can imagine what it says. Your skeptic friends have probably taught you well." I`ve studied religion and the Bible for 24 years. Why did your omnipotent god create such a confusing tome as his "LIVING WORD"? Face the facts. It does contradict itself. And it causes diversion amongs Christians. Simply answer the question in a simple fashion. Take care
24 years...where are your studies? Give me a doctrinal contradiction from the Bible. There are splits (as many as there are) because people are gullible. They'll believe anything they want to hear and have no intent of actually studying the Bible for themselves. Splits are not limited to Christianity. Every religion has many splinter groups. Ben
*Originally posted byKalvinB Apparently Lutherans are significantly Catholic as well seeing as they hold the same view of hell. In fact, I'm not sure what protestant branch teaches hell the way you do.* Oh oh, you may have identified a problem. Of course, the Bible is where I get my doctrine. The RC Catechism is where the standard doctrine comes from. You decide which is accurate. *It's not uncommon to find common ground in many churches.* True enough, but when that "common ground" is false doctrine, that is a bad thing. *I get the impression you think I should also believe that praying to Saints and purgatory are somehow Biblical since I'm already "significantly" aligned with their doctrine of hell. After all, if I'm inclined to believe that I should be inclined to believe the rest of it.* Nope. But you should consider where you get your doctrine from. *Or maybe...just maybe it's not significant at all and the fact I hold the same view of Catholics when it comes to hell.* It is significant. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9, KJV). If the Catholic hell is true then there is no death, just people relocating. If there is no death, then Jesus didn't die; he just went somewhere else. If Jesus didn't die, then he wasn't resurrected. If he wasn't resurrected, you're toast. Rethink your position. *Did it cross your mind that before you brought it up I had no idea what one concept in the Catholic Catechism was?* It did more than cross my mind; I was sure you didn't know it. I also know that while you believe in the catholic concept of hell, you have no scripture to back you up. *Did you think that maybe...just maybe I studied it out from the Bible and arrived at the conclusion all on my own?* No chance. You have completely underestimated 1700 years of Catholic propaganda and also this... In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. (2 Corinthians 4:4, KJV). Millions of people who aren't saved believe the Catholic doctrine of hell, yet (or perhaps because of it) their minds are blinded. *Did it ever cross your mind that maybe the ONLY catechism I've read is the Lutheran catechism?* I wonder if there is some similarity between that and the Catholic one? Wasn't Luther Catholic? And didn't he say he didn't want to leave the Catholic Church? *Of course not. You didn't ask. If you had read Mormon...no wait..."Outer Darkness" is probably closer to your view of hell...wait a second...you must be significantly Mormon.* How you get "outer darkness" out of anything I said is beyond me. *If you had read a Calvinist Catechism you would have said I was "significantly Calvinist."* I'd still have said you were significantly Catholic. *Originally posted byDeadwood if someone believes any of the Catholic Catechism they are Catholic or non-Christian? Surely the catechism must contain some truth? * I've noticed that the RC Catechism has not been able to distort the meaning of the word "the." Although, I do stand ready to be corrected on that point. *the passage that you quote is talking about Spiritual gifts from my understanding. Therefore, what I think you are saying is that when Jesus comes back, language will cease, knowedge will(we won't know anything).* Sort of. However, as I recall, the issue of perfection was being discussed. Thus, while we have languages, that which is perfect is not here. The Bible is here. *Originally posted byCaleb Care to rethink that? * OK. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6, KJV). Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12, KJV). Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (Romans 11:20,21, KJV). Further to the verse which says that we have been given eternal life is this... For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye MIGHT receive the promise. (Hebrews 10:36, KJV). We have been given it, but we haven't received it yet. And what would you need patience for? Enduring until the end. *the doctrine that we can loose salvation is actually Catholic in origin, as I understand it.* Read up on salvation from the Catholic POV and you'll see that they have no clue. They don't have it, which is why they can neither lose it nor gain it, which is why they invented purgatory. *In fact KalvinB's views of Hell (which I think I agree with so far) are not Catholic in origin,* It sure is. --The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. --- CCC, para. 1035 *Originally posted byStretch I think the debate between KalvinB and tony1 is a clear indication of the confusion Biblical Christian doctrine creates amongst the Christian community itself* It isn't the Biblical doctrine which creates the confusion. You are overlooking the fact that life is a pretty high-stakes game, one bet and your life, at that. As a result, the game is muddied up by a lot of deception on the part of someone who has lost already, and doesn't want anyone else to win, namely the devil. Jesus, speaking to the Pharisees, said... Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44, KJV). *I`ve studied religion and the Bible for 24 years.* I'm guessing that you've tried to hold Catholic, Lutheran, etc. doctrine in your head at the same as you read something in the Bible. No wonder it's so contradictory. To expand on what KalvinB said, I rejected everything I knew and started with the Bible. What a difference. Contradictions disappeared. Trying to hold even such as thing as the concept of Catholic hell and reading the Bible IS contradictory. On one hand, there are no verses to back the RCs and on the other, you have piles of verses telling you the opposite. Trying to hold on to both IS contradictory. Some choose to trash the Bible. I chose to trash Catholic doctrine which is tough since there is so much of it.
Forgetting everything I learned is exactly what I did as well. After I was getting nowhere studing the LDS view of things vs the Bible I went strictly to the Bible. First I organized the four gospels then went from there. The LDS church crumbled in one week when I studied the issue of godhood. The reason we differ on hell is because you went for the grave and I just did a concordance on the word hell. Here's a couple more verses to attempt to pursuade you: Matthew 25:45-46 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Everlasting punishment...hmm Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. worm not dieing, fire not quenched, what's that all about? "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." So all you quote about being consumed wouldn't it make sense that it's taking about the body and in hell the dead never recieve a new body and that's their punishment? Is the spirit without the body dead? I can understand the body being burned up but can the soul be torched into oblivion as well? I still think you're going nuts over this catholic thing and it's a little annoying. No. It's really annoying. You're obsessing. Just stay on topic which is currently what hell is. Forget the catholics, forget every catechism just stick to the relevant scriptures concerning hell and punishment. Ben
*Originally posted by KalvinB The reason we differ on hell is because you went for the grave and I just did a concordance on the word hell.* Perhaps you didn't see the post where I gave the definitions for all of the words that are translated "hell." *Everlasting punishment...hmm* Let me guess, you see "punishment" and right away, you think "torture." Why? Isn't the second death everlasting punishment enough? Or, do you feel that people have to be tortured after not just the first death, but the second also? In any case, you still have to account for the verse you quoted yourself... The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (Revelation 14:10, KJV). Since the torment takes place in the presence of the Lamb, and the righteous will also be in the presence of the Lamb, that would make heaven kind of a strange place, indistinguishable from hell in the standard doctrine. Of course, for this torture to take place forever, those sinners would have to be alive in contradiction to... For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23, KJV). Not only that, there is the issue of what kind of fire can't burn mere flesh even in an eternity. Perhaps sinners are converted into asbestos when they die. *Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. worm not dieing, fire not quenched, what's that all about?* Did you see the word "carcasses?" Worms eat carcasses. The fire can't be quenched, but that doesn't mean the carcasses in the fire last for ever. They turn into smoke and ashes... But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psalms 37:20, KJV). And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 4:3, KJV). "In the day" doesn't sound like forever. *I can understand the body being burned up but can the soul be torched into oblivion as well?* And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (1067, gehenna, the lake of fire). (Matthew 10:28, KJV). *I still think you're going nuts over this catholic thing and it's a little annoying. No. It's really annoying. You're obsessing. Just stay on topic which is currently what hell is. Forget the catholics, forget every catechism just stick to the relevant scriptures concerning hell and punishment.* No doubt, but what did Jesus actually say about things like that? How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. (Matthew 16:11,12, KJV). It is quite clear that Jesus says to beware of doctrines. What would you be wary of, if you don't know what false doctrines are?
`K Quote KalvinB "Give me a doctrinal contradiction from the Bible." Which Bible are you reffering to? Quote KalvinB "There are splits (as many as there are) because people are gullible. They'll believe anything they want to hear and have no intent of actually studying the Bible for themselves. Splits are not limited to Christianity. Every religion has many splinter groups." Yes, yes by the vary nature of blind faith religions develop sects. But please answer my question - WHY HAS YOUR OMNIPOTENT GOD IN HIS LOVING QUEST TO WIN THE SOULS OF MANKIND ... EVEN AFTER SACRIFICING HIS ONLY SON, ALLOWED THE BIBLE ... THE WORD OF GOD ... TO APPEAR CONFUSING AND CONTRADICTORY? If I give my son advice, I dont confuse or hide it. Take care
What Bible?! What Bible do you think? What did you supposedly study for 24 years? There aren't splits because the Bible is confusing. There are some splits because leaders willfully distort the doctrines of the Bible and people are gullible enough to believe it. There are some splits just because people want to act out rituals and worship a little differently. We all hold the same core doctrines that really matter. We just worship differently. In those 24 years have you ever examined WHY churches split? Or do you just assume? The Bible is not hard to understand at all. People believe it is because that's what they're told. It's such a long book. Skeptics present thousands of "contradictions" because people look at them and go "I can't deal with that!" It's people's perception not reality that makes they Bible difficult for them to understand. If people really want to believe the Bible is hard to understand God will let them and they'll never know the truth. I didn't deal with the contradictions head on. I studied pure doctrine and now I can just read them and laugh at how ignorant those people are. Some of them take some thought but for the most part they're just ignorant of anything the Bible has to say. You keep telling me the Bible is difficult to understand but it's not a universal thing. There are many people who actually can understand the Bible. Ben
You're over thinking this Tony Sheep and Goats. Sheep on the right, Goats on the left. Hell is to the left of God and Heaven is to the right of God. Why does that make heaven and hell indistinguishable? One is on the left and one is on the right. Unless direction is confused in heaven, I dunno. One one side you have people praising God and on the other bitching. Why is that verse an issue? Look at the story of Job. His wife; that's a person in hell. Complaining about God non stop. "Everlasting punishment" Jesus said it. What do you think he meant by it? Whatever the punishment is, it's going to last forever. Since when does a soul turn to ashes? You keep quoting about the bodily destruction. So? What does it mean to destroy the soul? What is spiritual death? The seperation of God from you. That is what hell is. It's the eternal seperation of you from God. Why did Moses have to hide behind a rock at the burning bush incident? Sinners cannot stand in the presence of God. When they're forced to it's not a pleasant experience. It's as being in a fire. Except with the glory of God even your soul feels it. I think you've had some issues with the Catholic church. When some LDS leave the church the reject everything as lies because the church was a lie. Including the Bible, God, the idea of Christ. To say the Catholic church has no truth in it because you found some lies is absurd. You need to stop being so afraid of the catholic church that you can't read the Bible straight. You say you have to not believe anything if you want to understand the Bible. I think you need to lose your Catholic doctrines as well. "It can't be true because the Catholics believe it" is rediculous. Ben
2 Thesselonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" So the punishment is everlasting destruction. Ben
*Originally posted by KalvinB You're over thinking this Tony* I'd say you were underthinking this. You forgot about what kind of fire it would have to be to not burn anything. You forgot about what destruction in the presence of the Lamb would entail over the long term, say forever. You forgot that destruction that takes forever isn't destruction; it is the opposite of destruction. *Why does that make heaven and hell indistinguishable? One is on the left and one is on the right. Unless direction is confused in heaven, I dunno.* The direction isn't indistinguishable. You're forgetting that there is no heaven or hell at the time people are getting tossed into the lake of fire. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Revelation 20:11, KJV). And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:14, KJV). After the earth, heaven, death and hell are gone, then people get tossed into the lake of fire. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15, KJV). *Why is that verse an issue? * It isn't for me. It creates serious problems for you, whether you see it or not. You'll note that your response was "heaven on the right and hell on the left" even though neither exist at the time. *"Everlasting punishment" Jesus said it. What do you think he meant by it? Whatever the punishment is, it's going to last forever. Since when does a soul turn to ashes? You keep quoting about the bodily destruction. So? What does it mean to destroy the soul?* It takes place in the fire... And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (1067, gehenna, the lake of fire). (Matthew 10:28, KJV). *What is spiritual death? The seperation of God from you. That is what hell is. It's the eternal seperation of you from God. * What is this "spiritual death?" It is never mentioned in the Bible. It has only been invented to deal with the defective concept of eternal judgment that's been floating around for centuries. It does a poor job of that and it creates more problems, not counting that it isn't in the Bible. That "separation from God" doctrine is one of the hokiest Catholic inventions ever. ---The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. --- CCC, para. 1035 Where exactly would this magical place be where you could be separated from God? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (Psalms 139:8, KJV). *Why did Moses have to hide behind a rock at the burning bush incident?* I think I see where you're going with this. You think you can be separated from God by hiding behind a rock. *I think you've had some issues with the Catholic church. ... To say the Catholic church has no truth in it because you found some lies is absurd.* Some lies? Every single thing in the Bible is contradicted by the Catholics. Christians believe Jesus is Lord. Catholics believe that, too, but if you don't like a full-grown man, they have baby Jesuses all over the place. If you don't like healthy babies, why, they have sick, blind Jesuses. If you don't like baby Jesuses, you can have sickly, pale Jesuses or strong Jesuses. If you don't like bare heads, you can have Jesuses wearing flat, gold hats. If you don't like living Jesuses, you can have dead ones. If you don't like men, they have Mary as another redeemer and mediator (although they are sensitive to political correctness; they call her mediatrix). If you don't like Mary from the Bible, why, you can have a Yugoslavian Mary or a South American Mary, or an oil slick or a blob on a wall. Besides, I've never been Catholic. I simply wondered why people such as yourself persistently believe that which is not in the Bible and deny that which is in the Bible. I picked up a copy of the Catechism out of curiosity and lo! and behold! I found all the crap that people believe in one book. Interestingly, based on what I've seen at this forum alone, I can see that most antireligious people are actually anti-Catholic. For good reason, too, since one of Pope's names is actually Antichrist (Vicarius Christi). You can pretty much trust anyone who calls himself Antichrist, that they are, in fact, antichrist. *I think you need to lose your Catholic doctrines as well.* I wondered about the picture of a slavering wolf on your website. I think I see why it is there.
What wolf? I have the white rabbit from American McGee's Alice on the front page because I know just how wacked out some of my fictional papers are as many people have read them. I have a "Hi I'm Jesus" picture as a backdrop to one of my stories (Book of Ben - Justification for It's Existance) which is a mockery of the Joseph Smith story but what wolf? I know I'm evil, but come on, do you really think I'd be so obvious about it? oh...wait. Did you seriously not understand what the point of the Moses thing was? Or are you just twisting my words on purpose? No heaven or hell at the time of the tossing. Interesting. I seem to recall Satan being cast out of heaven long ago. Where are the dead wicked now? Where are their souls? Purgatory? If you're right and those in hell cease to exist after a period of time how is the punishment eternal? How is the destruction eternal? I understand that the wicked will be cast into a lake of fire. You can calm down on that one. Seriously, get over the Catholics. Let's just stick to the Bible. It's all that matters anyway. Leave the personal attacks alone as well you twit. It's not relevant to the discussion. <mocking tone> "You have a wolf on your page...hmmm isn't that interesting?" </mocking tone> What the hell? You are one very paranoid individual. Ben
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Tormented for ever and ever? What's that all about? Ben
Don't exist? So, Tony1 ... when did they come into existence? Seems heaven existed when Jesus talked about it. When didn't heaven exist? It seems to me like heaven has been around for a while. And, gee, since I can anticipate the, It's the Kingdom, it's not Heaven response, consider carefully that you'll be called upon to explain in detail that which you seem to think is so simple that it requires only vagaries. It really is amazing what you'll say in order to convey the points you find legitimate; a separation from God requires no "where". It would, in a Universe endowed fully with God's presence, imply the nonexistence of the soul. The withdrawal of God's presence--the "separation"--results in the cessation of the soul. What, does God cease to exist when a given soul does? Even I'll admit that such an idea is "Catholic", but then again, you've never really established what's wrong with that outside the realm of your opinion. So in the end, your rampant anti-Catholocism only speaks to the failure of the Christian mission; of course, it's up to you how you wish to carry out God's instructions to you. You can either learn about people beyond their classifications, and thus better understand the world God has presented to you; or you can carry on with your zealous enactment of the unforgivable. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
*Originally posted by [KalvinB I know I'm evil, but come on, do you really think I'd be so obvious about it?* What answer can I give? *Did you seriously not understand what the point of the Moses thing was? Or are you just twisting my words on purpose? * Well, let me see. There was the hiding behind a rock. On the other hand, there was this burning bush. So, the only conclusion a person can jump to would be that God was eternally tormenting the bush? *No heaven or hell at the time of the tossing. Interesting.* I repeat, "at the time of the tossing." And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Revelation 20:14-21:1, KJV). *I seem to recall Satan being cast out of heaven long ago.* I repeat, "at the time of the tossing." *Where are the dead wicked now?* Graves? *Where are their souls? Purgatory? Gone. They're dead, remember? *If you're right and those in hell cease to exist after a period of time how is the punishment eternal? How is the destruction eternal?* Well, duh. Eternal destruction means destroyed forever. *Seriously, get over the Catholics. Let's just stick to the Bible. It's all that matters anyway.* If it is all that matters to you then why the "purgatory" comment? *"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Tormented for ever and ever? What's that all about? * I see three creatures in that verse, the devil, the beast and the false prophet. You see a lot more, why? I also see "day and night" in that verse. Later, I see... And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 22:5, KJV). Thus, day and night ends when there is no night. "Forever" is an English term, not a Greek term. Being related to time, it ends when time ends... And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: (Revelation 10:6, KJV). Note the term "should be." When that becomes "is" would be somewhere around the time night ceases to exist. *Originally posted by tiassa So, Tony1 ... when did they come into existence?* I'll repeat it for you, too, "at the time of the tossing." *consider carefully that you'll be called upon to explain in detail that which you seem to think is so simple that it requires only vagaries.* I'll repeat it for you, again, "at the time of the tossing." *It really is amazing what you'll say in order to convey the points you find legitimate; a separation from God requires no "where". It would, in a Universe endowed fully with God's presence, imply the nonexistence of the soul. The withdrawal of God's presence--the "separation"--results in the cessation of the soul.* Thank you. Although I doubt you can see it, that is my point.
Tony1, you missed. I refer you again to the citations I posted, in which Jesus refers to heaven as already existing. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Aah, tiassa, it does require the ability to read *Originally posted by tiassa I refer you again to the citations I posted, in which Jesus refers to heaven as already existing.* Let's try this again. Yes, tiassa, there really is a heaven which exists now. No, tiassa, there really is no heaven nor hell at the time the wicked are cast into the lake of fire. Why, you ask, is there no heaven nor hell at the time the wicked are cast into the lake of fire? Because... But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10, KJV). And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Revelation 20:11, KJV). And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:14, KJV). See how the heavens and the earth and death and hell are gone? After all of that, THEN we get the following... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15, KJV). It requires only the ability to read.
So heaven is outer space? I believe the "heavens" of 2 Peter you've cited, and also the "heaven" of Revelations you've cited both refer to the celestial unknown, which we've come to call outer space. Planets, galaxies ... However, your version is not without its merits; one of these days you might justify them if you ever develop a cohesive theology to document your neurotic assertions. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
*Originally posted by tiassa I believe the "heavens" of 2 Peter you've cited, and also the "heaven" of Revelations you've cited both refer to the celestial unknown, which we've come to call outer space. Planets, galaxies ...* A step in the right direction. You believe, and it's related to something in the Bible.
That was pointless, Tony1 But thank you for the worthless digression. One more of those is just what we need. And since it's your inaccurate digression to begin with, why take a tangent off it? As the purpose of your citation has been undermined, would you not care to comment either on how you reconcile that breach, or at least explain your sloppy, thoughtless theology? Didn't think so. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
*Originally posted by tiassa As the purpose of your citation has been undermined, would you not care to comment either on how you reconcile that breach, or at least explain your sloppy, thoughtless theology?* Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. (Nehemiah 9:6, KJV). What's this "heaven of heavens?" You pointed out that "heavens" in 2 Pet. 3:10 meant the planets, galaxies, etc., yet the same God who inspired that inspired Neh. 9:6.
