KalvinB Well no not really. God gives wisdom to understand His word. Unless you have God's wisdom you won't get it. It's not that hard to understand. It's not about being "stupid." Isn’t this a paradox? Isn’t the idea of reading and studying the bible the method by which one obtains God’s wisdom? But then how can one get started? If I need his wisdom before I can understand the bible, then I can never obtain that wisdom since I won’t be able to understand the bible at the start. Just because you're scientifically intelligent doesn't mean you're Philosophy or Bible smart. True but what’s your point? It is possible to be both. It's like the difference between school smart and street smart. Getting one doesn't mean you get the other. And again, your logic is invalid; you are trying to conclude that having one excludes the other. Cris
Kalvinb, These are the claims you posted concerning people with wisdom and intellect. because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: These statements imply that if one has wisdom and intellect then they cannot understand the bible. If one does not have wisdom or intellect then they are technically stupid. The conclusion is very simple; one must become stupid or be stupid in order to understand the bible. Please explain why you think I am wrong. Cris
This is why I don't bother with skeptic web-sites. Just forget it. My point has been proven. If you can't understand the difference between worldly and Godly wisdom then what authority do you have to debate more serious matters? Ben
Kalvinb, If you want to preach to the converted then indeed stay at theistic web sites. If you want a free debate then you should at least attempt to understand alternative, perhaps violently different points of view. But you need some patience, and a sense of humor as well. Don’t take things quite so seriously or become angry so easily. From my atheistic perspective Godly wisdom is meaningless, it has no factual basis, but from your perspective you think it is very real. I understand your point of view but you have no idea of mine. Try to recognize a tease when you see it. If you leave, then have fun wherever you go. Cris
*Originally posted by tiassa Especially in the Puritan scheme, it is why it is so difficult for a believer to address the issue: God loves you; that's why He condemns you to Hell.* It is the Catholic scheme you are talking about. Some Christians who have failed to read their Bibles also believe that. *Predestination creates evil* Nah... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV). *I would like to thank Rambler and Tony1* No prob. *Originally posted by dan1123 about predestination--I don't think it matters.* It can't. We don't know we we're predestined; only God knows that. *Originally posted by Cris Each of us is predestined to go to hell or heaven.* Aside from the fact that everyone goes to hell the grave, and no one goes to heaven, no one knows for themselves which it is. Thus it behooves one to make the right choice. Throwing in the towel and giving up pretty much "guarantees" that you were predestined for that. *Originally posted by Caleb I'm saved because I put my faith in Jesus as the sacrificial substitution for my sins.* You can't be because you haven't endured until the end... But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Matthew 24:13, KJV). Also, Christ hasn't appeared the second time yet... So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:28, KJV). What you have is faith that God will save you. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Hebrews 11:6, KJV). As atheists never cease to point out, correctly it seems, is that faith is not knowing. Of course, atheists get confused and think that not knowing is the same as knowing nothing. *Originally posted by tiassa should I attain God's heaven, I will be sharing it with mass murderers, misogynists, and others* It doesn't much matter where you go; you'll be sharing the place with such. *Originally posted by KalvinB ...the Bible. Simply because if it contains errors then you might as well burn it because it doesn't do you any good anyway. Well, it DOES contain errors, but that is no reason to burn it. God is perfect, Jesus is perfect, but a perfect Bible would lead to people worshipping the Bible, which would be a case of really missing the point. *Originally posted by Deadwood and KalvinB We can't order God around* I wonder why he says this...? Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. (Isaiah 45:11, KJV). *Originally posted by Deadwood The site is deceitful and doesn't actually reflect Christian views* Deceit being what it is, don't be deceived. Atheists have spent a lot of time identifying thousands of "contradictions" and various difficulties with the Bible. Those aren't the deceptions, seeing as they are there. The deception is in the conclusion they draw from those things, and the spin they put on them. It is not for nothing God said this... Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18, KJV). The atheists find something and stop. Your job is to reason. *Originally posted by Cris Just because you're scientifically intelligent doesn't mean you're Philosophy or Bible smart. True but what’s your point? It is possible to be both. * Of course it is. However, you don't get "Bible smart" by being "Science smart." Yet, how many people decide to become atheists or agnostics, or whatever, by looking at their IQ or their school marks and thinking that they have what it takes based on that to understand the meaning of life. "Science smart" really only means collecting a bunch of data. Good marks really only mean that you can regurgitate that data. High IQ really only means you can regurgitate rapidly. "Bible smart" means you know what to do with the data and what it means.
Hey Tony, why not print me up a list of all the errors in the Bible so I can roll it up and beat you over the head with it? That'd be great. "If the Bible were perfect we'd worship the Bible" Why not print that up a few thousand times so I can beat you with that to. Where do you come up with this stuff? If the Bible contains errors then when there's a "difficulty" one just says "we can't understand that" which is what cult churchs do constantly. They convince their members that the Bible is somehow difficult to understand so they become Bible stupid. They can't understand ANYTHING without a leader explaining it to them. This is how the church gains control. But because the members know a few verses on any given doctrine they think they know something. I call this being "ignorantly knowledgable" Cults thrive on this. This is why you should just burn the Bible because you have your own doctrinal agenda anyway which the Bible has no bearing on. If the Bible disagrees with you, you just ignore it as "difficult." The skeptics have thousands of "difficulties" because a) they're bible stupid b) they've never accepted any explaination offered by believers because they're too smart for that. Therefore the list never shrinks because their knowledge never grows. Ben
*Originally posted by KalvinB Hey Tony, why not print me up a list of all the errors in the Bible so I can roll it up and beat you over the head with it? That would take too long. Here are a couple. Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel. (2 Kings 8:26, KJV). Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri. (2 Chronicles 22:2, KJV). So how old was Ahaziah when he began to reign? Well, he wasn't older than his own father who was forty when Ahaziah began to reign, so he was twenty-two. And the thickness of it was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held three thousand baths. (2 Chronicles 4:5, KJV). And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths. (1 Kings 7:26, KJV). So, how big is the tub? I'll leave the resolution of that for you to figure out. *That'd be great.* Sorry, I didn't inspire the Bible. *"If the Bible were perfect we'd worship the Bible" Why not print that up a few thousand times so I can beat you with that to.* Easy dude, you aren't getting that out of the Bible. *Where do you come up with this stuff?* The Bible? Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, KJV). Can you speak in a language? Do you know anything? If the answer to either is "yes," then that which is perfect is not here yet. The Bible IS here, which means that it is not perfect. *If the Bible contains errors then when there's a "difficulty" one just says "we can't understand that" which is what cult churchs do constantly. They convince their members that the Bible is somehow difficult to understand so they become Bible stupid. They can't understand ANYTHING without a leader explaining it to them. This is how the church gains control.* Hmm. Interesting point. If we go down that road, the posts will get REALLY long. *This is why you should just burn the Bible because you have your own doctrinal agenda anyway which the Bible has no bearing on.* I'm guessing you disagree with Bible verses that I have posted. *If the Bible disagrees with you, you just ignore it as "difficult."* Sorry, bub. You'll be doing that long before I do. As a matter of fact, you are already doing that. *The skeptics have thousands of "difficulties" because a) they're bible stupid b) they've never accepted any explaination offered by believers because they're too smart for that. Therefore the list never shrinks because their knowledge never grows.* Actually, the skeptics have thousands of difficulties because they read the Bible themselves. Most explanations by believers are worse than what the skeptics come up with. Just check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church to see far astray one can go trying to explain difficulties without paying attention. A sidebar: just see how many Catholic doctrines you believe. "Hell" is just one example. "Eternal judgment" would be another example. The point is that the Word of God is spoken. Which means that you have to ask him, according to the following... If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (James 1:5, KJV). The Bible is written by prophets, which means that the following applies... And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. (1 Corinthians 14:32, KJV). Don't forget that for Jesus' disciples to understand the scriptures they needed something... Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:45, KJV). God also says this... Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18, KJV). Some reasoning is obviously required.
Who said I was Catholic or cared for the Catholic church? So there are errors in the numbers...explain to me how that's significant? "The Bible isn't perfect" According to the verses it's talking about the amount of prophecy. The Bible obviously doesn't contain all the prophecy. The church cut out much of it....wait shut up... What is perfect? "another challenge" The Bible is doctrinally perfect. Prove me wrong on that one. Give me a doctrinal "difficulty" from the skeptics. One and only one. I've run into people that have great difficulty in focusing not unlike ferrets. The Catholics are more intent on proving dogma than doctrine so I'd expect them to have a messed up catechism. I can believe that some Christians offer some messed up explainations. What in my last few days of posting would lead you to believe I would think otherwise? Ben
*Originally posted by KalvinB Who said I was Catholic or cared for the Catholic church?* Nobody I can think of said you were Catholic. However, where caring for the Catholic Church is concerned, that remains to be seen. Your views on hell appeared to be very close to Catholic doctrine, and there may be a lot (or not a lot) of your doctrine that is actually Catholic doctrine rather than Christian. But as I said, it remains to be seen. *So there are errors in the numbers...explain to me how that's significant?* It isn't to me. But for people who believe the Bible has no errors in it, it is significant, since there ARE errors. *According to the verses it's talking about the amount of prophecy. The Bible obviously doesn't contain all the prophecy. The church cut out much of it....wait shut up... What is perfect?* A unique point you are making there. Whatever "perfect" is, we will know it is here when all language ceases. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, KJV). That perfect is Jesus. We will know languages will cease, because... Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Revelation 1:7, KJV). And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:50, KJV). See? No speech, just wailing and gnashing of teeth. *The Bible is doctrinally perfect. Prove me wrong on that one.* What for? The Bible IS doctrinally perfect. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Timothy 3:16, KJV). *The Catholics are more intent on proving dogma than doctrine so I'd expect them to have a messed up catechism.* You don't know how messed up. Plus, you may find a whole pile of very familiar doctrines in it. *I can believe that some Christians offer some messed up explainations. What in my last few days of posting would lead you to believe I would think otherwise?* Seeing as you think some of mine is messed up, nothing.
I dunno about "a pile" According to belief.net I'm 100% conservative protestant. My view on hell is basically this a) The punishment is eternal. I know you quote the "burned into smoke" verse but how do you prove it's not talking about the physical body? Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. b) the damned are in the presence of God Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: c) Hell fire is symbolic of God's wrath John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire. Ezekiel 22:20-22 20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. 21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. 22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you. d) I also believe that Hell is perfect justice and heaven is perfect mercy. All the wicked are punished according to their works justly. In heaven all are perfectly forgiven so there is no discernment from one person to the next. Ben
*Originally posted by KalvinB I dunno about "a pile" According to belief.net I'm 100% conservative protestant. * Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, were we not 100% conservative protestant according to belief.net? (Matthew 7:22, paraphrased). *My view on hell is basically this* 100% Catholic. *a) The punishment is eternal. I know you quote the "burned into smoke" verse but how do you prove it's not talking about the physical body?* I don't have to; it IS talking about the physical body. *Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. * Great proof-text for ever-rising smoke; the same smoke as in... But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psalms 37:20, KJV). The "day nor night" is significant, too. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. (Revelation 21:25, KJV). And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 22:5, KJV). *b) the damned are in the presence of God* That is new doctrine if you mean they are there longer than it takes to destroy them. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. (Psalms 68:2, KJV). Oops, looks like they don't last long. *Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: * This creates a problem for your doctrine. The righteous are in the presence of God and so are the wicked, for ever, in your line of reasoning so far. That would mean your hell and heaven are the same place. *c) Hell fire is symbolic of God's wrath. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. * Are you saying that the sinners are walking around on fire NOW? *Ezekiel 22:20-22 20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. 21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. 22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you. * Of course, this is not talking about sinners since the section starts out with... And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. (Ezekiel 22:17,18, KJV). *d) I also believe that Hell is perfect justice and heaven is perfect mercy. All the wicked are punished according to their works justly. In heaven all are perfectly forgiven so there is no discernment from one person to the next.* Great summation, but the rest of your doctrine is not based on scripture, but on the Catholic Catechism. Turns out you aren't 100% protestant, but a significant portion Catholic and pagan Greek. You believe in the immortal soul theory just like Plato. Plato - Soul The soul is in the very likeness of the divine, and immortal, and intellectual, and uniform, and indissoluble, and unchangeable; and the body is in the very likeness of the human, and mortal, and unintellectual, and multiform, and dissoluble, and changeable. -- Phaedo 80b (Jowett) As I said, you will find a pile of familiar doctrines in the Catechism.
How does my view on hell make me "significantly" Catholic? "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Your version would seem to make sense then. Ben
*]Originally posted by KalvinB How does my view on hell make me "significantly" Catholic?* Because it is straight out of the Catechism? --The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. -- CCC, para.1035 *"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."* Is your definition of "destroy" the same as "not destroy?" For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23, KJV). Sinners aren't made of asbestos.
My view of hell makes me as significantly Catholic and my view of "nothing bad ever happens" makes me significantly Buddhist. My view of God probably makes me significantly Calvinist. My view of Baptism makes me significantly...I dunno...I think Lutheran. So apparently I'm significantly a lot of things. Apparently Lutherans are significantly Catholic as well seeing as they hold the same view of hell. In fact, I'm not sure what protestant branch teaches hell the way you do. So basically what it boils down is that having a few doctrines (if that) overlap doesn't qualify as "significant." It's not uncommon to find common ground in many churches. I get the impression you think I should also believe that praying to Saints and purgatory are somehow Biblical since I'm already "significantly" aligned with their doctrine of hell. After all, if I'm inclined to believe that I should be inclined to believe the rest of it. Or maybe...just maybe it's not significant at all and the fact I hold the same view of Catholics when it comes to hell. Did it cross your mind that before you brought it up I had no idea what one concept in the Catholic Catechism was? Did you think that maybe...just maybe I studied it out from the Bible and arrived at the conclusion all on my own? Having never consulted a catechism or any other writing in the process except for the KJV Bible? Did it ever cross your mind that maybe the ONLY catechism I've read is the Lutheran catechism? Of course not. You didn't ask. If you had read Mormon...no wait..."Outer Darkness" is probably closer to your view of hell...wait a second...you must be significantly Mormon. If you had read a Calvinist Catechism you would have said I was "significantly Calvinist." It's not significant in the least. Ben
Tony, are you saying that if someone believes any of the Catholic Catechism they are Catholic or non-Christian? Surely the catechism must contain some truth? Tony, the passage that you quote is talking about Spiritual gifts from my understanding. Therefore, what I think you are saying is that when Jesus comes back, language will cease, knowedge will(we won't know anything). I am sure you have heard of the gift of tounges, the gift of knowledge and the gift of prophecy mentioned in the latter of the passage. If you read this as it was written as a letter you just can't change contexts like that. I say that spiritual gifts will cease at that moment. Because spiritual gifts are for the edifying and building up of the church as well as our selves and for unbelievers. Once Jesus comes everything will be complete, therefore, this age would have come to an end and the church won't need building up nor the people nor the unbelievers, everything will be made perfect and this Earth will pass away.
Tony: <b><i> "John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, <u>neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.</u> John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and <u>no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand</u>." "1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 1 John 5:10 <u>He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself</u>: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 John 5:11 And <u>this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life</u>, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may <u>know</u> that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." "Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, <u>shall be able to separate us from the love of God</u>, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." "1 John 3:19 And hereby we <u>know</u> that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, <u>God is greater than our heart</u>, and knoweth all things. 1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1 John 3:23 <u>And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ</u>, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And <u>hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us</u>." "2 Cor 1:18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. 2 Cor 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 2 Cor 1:20 For <u>all the promises of God in him are yea</u>, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 2 Cor 1:21 Now <u>he which stablisheth us with you in Christ</u>, and hath anointed us, is God; 2 Cor 1:22 Who <u>hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.</u>" "Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, <u>ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, </u>Eph 1:14<u> Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.</u> Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;" </i></b>(All references KJV) Care to rethink that? ~Caleb
btw -- the doctrine that we can loose salvation is actually Catholic in origin, as I understand it. If you aren't sanctified properly just before death (last rights, I think they call it) then you are doomed to either Hell or Purgatory (I forgot which). In fact KalvinB's views of Hell (which I think I agree with so far) are <i>not</i> Catholic in origin, as Catholics have the view of Purgatory, which is certainly not Biblical. ~Caleb
Dazed dna Confused Hiya Cris, Thanks for your replies to KalvinB, I don`t always have the energy! I think the debate between KalvinB and tony1 is a clear indication of the confusion Biblical Christian doctrine creates amongst the Christian community itself, let alone the rest of us. I only wish I could recieve a really clear answer regarding the confusing and contradictory state of the Bible! Why God why? Take care
"I don`t always have the energy!" Getting old there Stretch? The old gray matter not what it used to be? "I only wish I could recieve a really clear answer regarding the confusing and contradictory state of the Bible" Um...I dunno...try reading it. There are two ways to study the Bible. The most common is to come up with a doctrine and then prove it. The other is to just read the Bible and go from there. I used a method I call Concordance Theology which works well if you know what you're doing. To start you have to reject everything you believe as wrong. Well, then there's your way. Go to a skeptics site and read the thousands of "contradictions" and just throw your hands up in the air. Way to think for yourself. Way to show that you really want to know what the Bible says. "Why Tony and I dissagree" Because contradictory to what you may believe Christians do have to think for themselves. There comes a point when a person should realize that you can't trust anyone to tell you the truth. It's not like distrusting a stranger. It's a respectful distrust. Acts 17:11 I suppose I should print that out for you. Wouldn't want to waste your energy by forcing you to look it up. I'm sure you can imagine what it says. Your skeptic friends have probably taught you well. Ben
