What is the truth? That's a tough question when talking about God. The answer can be yes, no, or maybe. Do people join religion because they know the truth? Well, most religious people think that way. Do people dislike religion because they know the truth? I think some non-religious people think that way. Do people join religion because they fear the truth? I think many of them joined just for in case. Do people dislike religion because they fear the truth? This one is really interesting. But isn't that disobeying is the sign of courage, not fear?
Good topic. I believe all genuinely thinking humans at some point in their lives are consumed by this thought. (In this day and age, it is particularly relevant because of all of the conflicting beliefs that are thrown around. Especially under the "New Age" umbrella of beliefs, which includes the buddhist belief of becoming one drop in a huge spirit ocean, and also the Hindu belief of many reincarnations until you work off your karma.) I believe the fundamental basis of God's existence is Truth. He put in His creatures the desire and longing to know the truth, however that may be expressed in any given life experience. That shouldn't surprise us since He is eternal, was here before anything existed to ask, "What is truth?". I'm not sure what you mean by this. Truth is absolute, in spite of what you hear from the majority of people, even Christians. Most people who seek out a religion are ultimately seeking truth. It's like music. When you just start learning to play the piano, you quickly feel very proficient, once you have "Lightly Row" down. It takes a great amount of knowledge to realize how much more there is to learn. I imagine Bach and Mozart felt in some ways less confident in their musical knowledge than a few hot-shot recitalists I've heard. I don't know anyone who attends church because they fear the truth initially. But then I don't go to a fire and brimstone type church either. Now this is interesting. I believe you're right. At least for some. Kinda like a person who's afraid to go to the doctor because he'll be diagnosed with a deadly disease. Ignore it and hope it will go away. So he doesn't have to change it lifestyle and habits.
There is a little difference between go to a doctor and go to God. The person can become a doctor himself to verify the diagnose, but can't become a god to verify the truth.
*Originally posted by daktaklakpak What is the truth? That's a tough question when talking about God. The answer can be yes, no, or maybe.* Let's see, yes is the truth, no is the truth, maybe is the truth? For, many as were the promises of God, in Christ is the 'Yes' that fulfils them. Therefore, through Christ again, let the 'Amen' rise, through us, to the glory of God. (2 Corinthians 1:20, TCNT). You may be on to something. *Do people dislike religion because they fear the truth? This one is really interesting. But isn't that disobeying is the sign of courage, not fear?* It may be a sign of foolhardiness, rashness or recklessness, which many confuse with courage. *The person can become a doctor himself to verify the diagnose, but can't become a god to verify the truth.* How one would go about diagnosing comatosis or death is open to question. As for verifying the truth, you WILL do that, regardless. Don't leave until it is too late to find out you made the wrong choice. After the resurrection, everyone will know the truth. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6, KJV). If Jesus is your Lord, the second death will have no power over you. If he isn't then... But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psalms 37:20, KJV). Just before you disappear in a puff of smoke, the heat would be a subtle clue that you made the wrong choice.
What does that have to do with anything? A) no one knows when he's comming and never will until he comes. B) How can one predict the number of days in their own life? Even if we did know when he was comming we couldn't place sure bets we'd live to see it. Ben
That's the beauty of waging a bet. You just can't predict the out come. So are you brave enough to bet or not?
Truth can be described as something that is verifiable, that is outside of the individual, but this leaves some problems. For instance, I could say that I am imagining a giant purple butterfly, and it may be true, but it is not verifiable. So is a new definition needed? Maybe an opposite approach would help: anything that isn't false, is true. This doesn't say anything though--I might as well say that anything that is true is the truth. Maybe you could base truth on experience: "Truth is something I have seen or at least something similar to what I have seen." This I think is what most people accept as truth. If something exists that lies outside their experience, they have to see it for themselves so that it then lies within their experience. This nicely includes my statement of (possible) truth about imagining a giant purple butterfly--it lies within most peoples' experience to imagine similar creatures. What about things that you will never experience then? For instance, most people will never experience a nice close-up of the surface of Pluto. What if someone told you there were flowing rivers of liquid nitrogen on Pluto's surface? There are ways to check to see if it is possible--like figure out the surface temperature to see if nitrogen would be liquid. The real question if that were true is, "Is it there?" If there is no nitrogen on Pluto, it doesn't matter if the conditions are perfect for it to be liquid. The question of "being there" is at its base an effort to try and separate existence from experience. I would argue that truth must be something that exists separate from experience. People can make up whatever they please, but in order to lie about something, it must be tied to the liar's experience. Without a liar, there can be no lie, but truth can stand on it's own. To bring this back to religion, the real question of God is, "Is He there?" If He isn't, then there is a bunch of pointless money wasted, time wasted, and lives wasted. However, if He is there, then He can basically do as He pleases and we can't argue whether it is fair or true or anything else--He is God, after all.
Very well put, Dan. I think that very few of the "moral relativists" who post regularly on this site are able to understand this very simple fact. Otherwise, they would realize that truth is independent of anything anybody thinks about it! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
"That's the beauty of waging a bet. You just can't predict the out come. So are you brave enough to bet or not?" What does being brave have to do with it? Say I do bet he comes in my life time and then he doesn't. What does that prove? That I'm a liar? That my religion is false? What does it prove? "Yeah, God, I made this bet that you'd show up BEFORE I died, and you didn't. What are you doing here? You obviously don't exist. Well...okay...seeing as you do, how can you condemn me for being a liar? You made me a liar! You could have just, ya know, ended the world a little sooner!" Read my sig. Ben
*Originally posted by daktaklakpak Do you want to bet that second coming won't happen in your life time? * What a pointless bet. If I'm dead when he comes, I'll be resurrected. *Originally posted by dan1123 Without a liar, there can be no lie, but truth can stand on it's own.* Sweet, and to the point.
Resurrected without a body? Or God is going to make you a new one? I wonder how many had died already since the beginning. And BTW, where in the Bible says that you will be resurrected without a body before the judgement? I wonder how truth can stand on it's own when an absolute truth can also has conditional strings attached to it, like "thou shall not kill/steal unless God says so."
God is real? I think that religious people and nonreligious people know equally well that no "god" exist at the innermost level. The distinction is really between those who can deal with it without fear and those who cannot. I do not look down upon or disrespect anyone of faith. There is SO much pain in the world and it is distrubited SO unevenly that it is a blessing that there are places for people to go when the truth becomes too much to bear. I see NYC and really wish that that there was a god. I really do. Truth hurts.
*Originally posted by daktaklakpak Resurrected without a body? Or God is going to make you a new one? I wonder how many had died already since the beginning. And BTW, where in the Bible says that you will be resurrected without a body before the judgement?* Nowhere, but then again, not everyone attacks a strawman as quickly as you can build one. *I wonder how truth can stand on it's own when an absolute truth can also has conditional strings attached to it, like "thou shall not kill/steal unless God says so." * "Unless" is only conditional for you. "Unless" for you means plan B is in effect. God is always on plan A. *Originally posted by machaon I think that religious people and nonreligious people know equally well that no "god" exist at the innermost level.* You'd be correct; they both equally agree that such a statement cannot be true. That's why the Bible says the following... The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. ... (Psalms 14:1, KJV). *The distinction is really between those who can deal with it without fear and those who cannot.* You can be one of those people who can deal with it without fear. Confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead.
