...to it's international conclusion. Let's re-shape the world exactly as it was 2500 years ago. Or maybe 2000. I'm hoping to learn either Celtic or Latin over here in the UK, but tracing my family back as far as I can I may be headed back to France. I guess we'll have a few borders to redraw. Lucky old native Americans! They get the USA and Canada! There'll be plenty of space. It's going to get pretty crowded over here in Europe though. Either way, if it works for the Israelis...
Very funny, but both feel they were given the land by their God. Americans used to believe the same for this continent, so now that many don't believe in God, do they all have to start packing? Anyway, here are some comments I made in another post, that I feel fit this post, maybe a little more seriously ( maybe not, depends on your POV):
Interesting points. As you say, the key justification of Israel is its religious 'right'. I think I would be correct in saying that it represents the only such case of a 'return' to a country previously inhabited by a particular group. There is, I believe, a similar example in Liberia as a home for freed slaves from the US. But the justification for Liberia was slightly different. North and South American countries were created through conquest in an imperial age when might was right and supreme cultural arrogance reigned. There was no UN, no conception of indigenous rights, no conception of a basic human equality to govern yourselves as you see fit. At least, this was not the consensus or majority view. I entirely agree with what you're saying about current attitudes towards immigration in the US - the contradiction between now and the basis on which the country was founded is stark. I think the point I'm trying to make, rather lightheartedly, is that as time passes so borders, people and attitudes change. There is no single justification for any group of people inhabiting any particular place beyond the fact that they are there. That's not to say that history should be ignored. it can't and it shouldn't for it leads to future conflict if supressed. It was right that North America belonged to native Americans in 1600 because they were there. Equally so for South America, Australia and all other colonial countries. But that is a retrospective standard, and it is difficult to judge actions from the past with context from the present. We cannot so easily shift our moral framework across history. But the present context shared, and espoused, throughout most of the world regarding self-determination, human rights etc. is a current issue nonetheless. And history stirs these feelings among people now, today. The dilemma is, do we ignore those who lost out once the rules changed (military might and annexation established US boundaries, but Iraq no longer has those same options with Kuwait). The fluid boundaries of the world stopped at some time, never to be changed again. Winners stay winners and losers stay losers without the ability to compete on equal terms. Somebody said lets end this poker game, and now those who find themselves down on their luck have no more chances to win their money back. Do we redistribute all, some, or none of the money? Israel is the exception to this. And law (or an international system) must be seen to be universal. This is the main reason why Israel has such difficulty justifying its existence.
Boundaries are still fluid around the world captain canada. Many people from quebec want a new country cause they dont like canada. Boundaries will no longer be fluid or negotiable until there is world peace. world peace which has not been attained yet. I'm saddened that you cannot see the whole picture. In my eyes and in the eyes of many people throughout the world, Israel's existence is just as justifiable as the UK is itself.
External boundaries are simply not fluid. The UN recognises the territorial integrity of all it's members. Under the UN charter, violations of these boundaries are to be met with sanctions, be they military or economic, by the other UN member states. There have been separatist movements - a quite different thing. The former Yugoslavia disintegrated internally from one state to five, but its external borders remained unchenged. Name a country that has annexed someone else's territory in the past 50 years. I can think of China and Tibet, but not many others. Borders are more fixed now than they have been at any time in human history. I do fail to see how Israel's existence is as justifiable as the UK's. Perhaps you can explain it. It seems to me that all I am ever offered by way of explanation is one rule for Israel, another for everyone else. Slightly off the point, but an article worth reading is this one: Imposing a Settlement It's always worth looking at an opposing view.
Israel & Palestine Thursday August 30, 2001 The Guardian Often the Israeli territorial appetite is disguised..... some commentators still write as though it were Palestine that occupies Israel and not the other way around..... The issue of democracy in Israel is often used as an argument..... thought which argues that Israel is indeed a democracy for its Jewish component.... There is nothing more morally disturbing than a democratic oppression supported by the informed consent of the voter and the citizen.... I was in London when Saddam Hussein invaded and occupied Kuwait, and was unequivocally vocal in condemning the occupation.... International law and the presence of oil were both invoked then as a justification for external intervention.... I have news for you. We too happen to have oil: olive oil. The Palestinians are desperate for international intervention and have appealed for it on numerous occasions.... Interesting stuff, each side has it's points and it does seem that there are 2 standards. Does Israel have the right to exist, vis-a-vis, that they had to uproot the current residents to do it? QUESTION:Does ancient occupation, translate to modern justification? If the answer is yes, then I guess all the Europeans, Asians & Africans have to go back to their ancestral homelands. And then, if we take this to it's logical conclusion, I guess Africa will be really crowded with all humanity there? QUESTION:What gives modern Israel the right to occupy any Palestinian land? If the answer is, 'that God gave it to Abraham', then why were the Romans able to oust them for 2 thousand years? QUESTION:Is modern Israel the creation of the West or the fulfillment of God's plan? If the answer is, 'of the West', then this Israel will fall one day. If it's 'of God', then no one can stand in it's way!
Ok captain canada and randolfo First off I'm curious what afif safieh means. And to adress your question captain canada Its that dispute about Ireland places like the falklands and countless other places you have tried to hang on to. By the way there are plenty of boundary disputes like Between Japan and Russia (north of Hokkaido, and uk argentina as pointed out earlier. I know there are lots more, not nearly as bloody as the israel palestinian one though. Randolfo: Its not just about ancient occupation to answer your first question. I think Israel was created as a sanctuary. All these jews in the area and many were poorly treated. I dont know if I have mentioned this story yet but a fellow from iran came to calgary. He escaped that place. They didnt want him immigrating. but when he was a child he snuck onto a plane with his brother because the rest of his family was intervened. People would throw rocks at him to and from synogogue. They werent even allowed to keep many traditions. I think this is very similar to palestine 50 years ago. Its like if we cant be treated right then well just have to settle this once and for all. resulting in war and then israel. second question. They were ousted from the land because of sins like many jews leaving for jesus even though told that when the messiah came he there would be world peace. And Jesus according to us was a fake messiah. Archeologists are finding good evidence he moved to france and had kids. All that stuff was in the prophecy of the bible. Lastly the bible does say that Israel would come again and heres the important part AS LONG AS THEY REMAINED LOYAL to G-d then they would be unstopable against even overwhelming odds. (I'm brought back to 1967). Who knows what the future holds. The west hardly played a role in israels creation. They only acknowledged it as a state. Its safe to say that Israel is the only true democracy in the middle east. Nowadays Iran is trying to be one but they have admitted it is not democracy. Lastly The US can only trust Israel in the Middle East. Most of the UAE dont like the west at all including places like Uk. If you still have questions or I didnt adress anything please let me know. I would like to settle this topic with a right or wrong.
Re: Ok captain canada and randolfo Randolfo: BY whom? And who had the right to take the Palestinians' land? What happened to the Palestinians' sanctuary? That's true, but people around the world are treated poorly, name a country and then look at it's minorities and see that this is true also. Most so-called christian countries never treated Jews as equal, I think the West is the closest now? But people are thrown rocks everywhere, I'm sure the Kurds, Assyrians, and Samarians would like their own countries too! Funny, Christians think that the Torah and the Prophets speak of Jesus, all throughout the Bible. It's considered prophecy! I guess we'll have to see at the end of time if that is true? Christians believe that near the end, most Jews will convert to Christianity. In this country, these archeologists would publish in the "National Inquirer". If you believe this weak stuff, I got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, real cheap $2000 American dollars!!! As a Christian I believe that, but it's hard to believe that this Israel is of God and not of man, it acts like the Nazis of Germany. Can I remind you that English is not a sacred language. Devote Jews may not pronounce God's name in Hebrew, but please, it looks so fake in English!! Anyway, as practiced, Judaism is a tribal religion, whose god is a totem god and therefore may not understand English. If HE is really the God of the Universe, He has to speak to ALL PEOPLE, not just his little tribe. So, is God the god of the Jews or God of the Universe? Man, is that what they teach in Israel? Next time, make sure that the US does not send any war supplies or dollars. Tell me, up until the Israelis started building their version of the French Mirage (the Kfir), what planes did Israel use? F-4's. What weapons systems did they use? I can't accept the 'Thanks' for the US, but you're welcome anyway. Israel is were the US was 50 years ago, with the way they treated blacks, Palestinians need a civil rights campaign. Tell me, are Palestinians looked at as equals to Jewish Israelis? Do they have the same rights? Do the courts treat both Jew & Muslim equally? Please, Israel only does what benefits itself. All countries do, why should we trust Israel more, than say the UK or Canada? Check out the 'USS Liberty' incident. Does this mean you, and only you know the answer? Please, what are your credentials? What scholarship have you done? What peer-reviewed journals have printed your research? If none? Then next time I need a lesson in history, I'll read a book or journal. What you have is called an opinion. I think I can tell right or wrong on my own, thank you!
Hold on Randolfo. Slow down the pms train for just a moment. first off I am not israeli, i'm canadian to your first paragraph: If there are different people jews and palestinians in 1 area and they cant get along, then there is war. After all the blood there are winners and loosers israel won formed a nation and thats how things work. Even the civil war in the us. the south wanted to break away right? The palestinians lost and left cause they knew they might poorly treated, although they were legally aloud to live there. to your second paragraph: Okay Japan, Morocco, Holland just to name a few. They are calling me to bed right now, its midnight. I'll adress the rest of this tomorrow.
Finishing off. second paragraph-- you couldnt imagine how things were. Just because other minorities around the world were treated bad doesnt mean that they had to accept it. for your third paragraph: Ya they should have their own countries too if they fight for em. And your right but I'm not centraling bad treatment because they were muslim. Its nothing to do with religion. All to do with attitude and culture. I know, your right. Eg spanish inquisition. fourth paragraph: Considered prophecy by who. i have nothing against you for believing he is the messiah. God said when the messiah would come he would bring world peace and true world peace isnt temporary or non existant. He said there would be times when It might be hard not to believe in a guy claiming to be the messiah. Thats why they were ousted from israel. Many christians from today had jewish ancestors. Fifth paragraph: really? wasnt it true that the christians said if you went too far you would fall off the earth. And by giving to the church you would get to heaven faster and reduce chances of going to hell. and wasnt it the christians who began the dark ages by not allowing people to learn. Sure I personally believe that many will convert as many are already. Those who are are still keeping many jewish beliefs though. ANd I'll tell when the end times come there is no way I would ever convert. I'm very happy with my religion. It seems that my religion can answer all of my questions with logical and scientifically sound reasoning. Like the universe could have been created in 6 days if you consider that particles were moving very fast therefore time would slow down. Dont get me wrong I have nothing against christians, most of my friends are christians. Good people come from all walks of life. I dont label someone based on their religion. Sixth paragraph. Do you consider discovery channel, tlc and many respected universitys across the globe less credible than the national inquirer?? Seventh You ever heard of the saying in the bible. 'I will bless thee, and I will bless those that blesseth thee, and curse those that curseth thee." If israel is a jewish state, and one that remains loyal to G-d, would it matter? Everything is a creation of G-d right? The only way they would ever fall is if they become much less loyal to G-d. Probably something with its best chance of happening around the coming of the second false messiah who is said to be much easier to believe of than the first. Eighth, Ya it does matter. These are my beliefs. I dont give a $*&# if you think its stupid. I think I would know more about my religion than you. It doesnt matter if the language is sacred or not. That doesnt make G-d less sacred than he is. G-d is the Everywhere and everything. He isnt just G-d of the jews but G-d of everyone and everything. He chose the jews to be special and speak THROUGH them to all people in the world. That doesnt mean people other than jews cant be special. We dont believe others are less than us. But let me remind you. We dont believe others are more than us. If I havent already told you I'm Canadian not Israeli. Plus the french had decieved israel. They were very good alies with the UAE. It was the cold war. The US needed Israel as a strategic allie. bin laden arafat hussein and the likes cant be trusted. They HATE the west for the most part. If anything Israel is 50 years ahead of the US. Children get way better PUBLIC educations. EVERYONE is treated equal. Its illegal not to do so. Everyone has the same rights. Their courts are among the most justice doing in the world. The US courts would not allow a recount of ballots in winter because they were republican. Do you call that justice??? You arent judged based upon your religion or anything as such. Do Palestinians vote on whether or not there should be a revolt. most of them are pressured into political situations. You ask them with nothing on the line (like respect friends family wellbeing) and see what they would rather have. Ya didnt the terrorists blow that thing up?? I didnt say you should trust em more than other allies. I said they are your allies way more than any UAE. The UAE harbour most of the terrorists who hate the US. I dont know of many israeli terrorists. I can tell you if your unintelligent enough to believe the likes of arafat and Sadam hussein are your allies you dont deserve an opinion. Lastly, I never said I was right. I said i wanted to debate this until we came up with a right and wrong opinion, and I think I've proved my opinion right. i said if you have any questions on MY opinions then ask. and by saying if I didnt adress anything I ment any integral part of the situation. You got a response. Cause if not I'll consider that a forfit.
Elbaz Isael is near the arabs and not near the skandinavin nations outissues with the arabs are not just on which side does one neda crack t eat a boiled egg in order to do it in the rigt way. we do not chose our foes. if we did i'm sure itis better to wage peace with the eskimos. and Elbaz jews belive that the entire world will be jewish by thier own free will when te messia comes. btw check my post in science&society Elbaz
Randolfo and Elbaz I think that Randolfo's considered and, I would say, unbiased post raised some issues that ELbaz really has failed to respons to. I think that Elbaz is unable to look beyond his own outlook to see an opposing point view and attempt to judge it on its merits. Perhaps it is somewhat shocking to have long held to beliefs challenged in an intelligent way. I suppose you could say that I am biased - my opinions are fairly fixed on the issue and I have yet to hear an argument that has altered my opinion. However, I think Elbaz, if you look at previous posts, you would find that Randolfo has a fairly impartial view on the matter and is open to reasoned debate. Also, I would suggest that we are actually capable of seeing the problem from Israel's perspective. I will leave out the religious dispute - the reason why Jews chose Palestine for their homeland - but with the country now established a smaller issue. I do think though that the idea that Jews do not place themselves above others is a little disingenuous. They are the 'children of God' and have a divine right to Palestine, the 'Holy land'. Sounds pretty special to me, especially when someone else was living there at the time! But putting the issue to one side, lets look towards how to resolve it. Try Elbaz, to offer a Palestinian strategy. Biased as I am, I can see that Israel is here to stay, and I wouldn't advocate its destruction despite my misgivings about its creation. We can't keep exiling people (my point about the Palestinians). But look at it from this angle Elbaz. Suppose Jews had been living happily in Palestine for hundreds of years, and after a terrible war the UN decided that, actually, it was the Palestinians who should be living there. Palestinians arrive carving the country in two, and the Jews, understandably angry to have been forced from their homes, fight a war - Palestinians win and expand. Eventually the Jews are driven into West Bank. However, the Palestinains expand beyond Israel and into the West Bank annexing the land. The Jews fight back and eventually the Palestinians offer 75% of the West Bank with strings attached that means you can't really govern yourselves - in terms of security, access to water and access to trade - as well as an archipeligo of a country with pockets of Palestinians residing in fortified complexes backed by a massive military presence. Maybe you disagree with the picture, but you get the idea. How DO the Palestinians respond? From their perspective? Ignored by the international community that won't intervene. Should they abandon hope of returning to their homes their families inhabited for centuries while Russians, Poles and Americans come to farm the land, without any compensation? Should they just accept Israeli domination of their security, water and economy? Should they think, oh bad luck, didn't know the family farm was only lased to us by God's chosen ones? Honestly, what should they do? This is a serious and pragmatic question because Israel can only lose in the long-term unless they reach a JUST setlement. A settlement through imposition will only lead to violence later.
My opinion I agree with Randolfo,no one can claim a divine right only given to them to do what is forbidden to others,more if it involves torture and executions;for if the law is not settled on an equal,objective basis,then every one would like to be the "chosen one",and if the only way to prove God s will is force,then no debate is useful,just brutality,which is the opposite of justice.
I know you guys have dont really have anything against Israel but just the fact you are biased. Almost the whole world is. I mean look at that racism conference in south africa. The US left, israel left and canada is thinking of leaving. Why because there is no debate about how to resolve the issue, but most are just pointing fingers. Things are only going to get worse before they get better. The Israelis have offered and tried to deal, but lets face it, they want 100%. I dont know if that includes all Jerusalem or Just some of our holy sites. They've already offered what I consider a very fair offer, at camp david. And dont compare it to the Kuwait Iraq thing. Israel is a free country which is secure economically and if not for the violence then very politically stable. Sharon isnt like Saddam and Israel is not like 'Evil' iraq. Lets face it, the only way this thing is going to end is through war. If you want peace then its alright to protest but doing things like throwing stones and suicide bombing is bullshit. Anyone who does that doesnt want peace. And by the way, G-d allways gives people what they deserve. So if it turns out to be war then fine. I really dont care anymore. Nobody is stopping palestinians from living there. They just want Jerusalem because they thing it should be purely muslim.
Elbaz, this is from a different post, if you are really 15, well 'cool', I like it that you are willing to throw your ideas and thoughts out into cyberspace. This was obvious, from your mixing the 'Yom Kippur War' & the 'Six Day War'. My only problem with your point of view, is that if you really are 15, I wish you would use 'spell check', you are not on an internet game, with only 2 seconds to get your point across before the 'Bzzoids' k-bomb your base camp. Type your stuff on Word, then copy it onto Sciforums. You don't have to misspell words to prove your '15'. Unless, your really '51' & playing games??????? You are not old enough to know this, unless you have grown up in a non-western country, well maybe. The answer, unfortunately is, whoever has the big guns has the power. That's the problem, we always end up fighting. No justice, no peace. What happens to the Palestinians?????????? Do they have to fight for it??????? Isn't that how the problem started???? As a Mexican, I won't defend the Spanish; just remind you that the English, French, Arabs, US, Mexicans, etc, etc…. did & do the same still……. I think they were ousted from Israel, because the Jews revolted one to many times against Rome. Bar Kochba led one revolt, look it up. SoKay Those are NOT academically rigorous centers, they are entertainment channels first & foremost, with a little research thrown in. If you saw that Tarot cards were true on those channels, would it be true? If it was on PBS, yes maybe, SA & SI are good starts. Also, remember that Mormons fund archeology in North America & the Holy Land, they want to prove their point of view. Does your 'Mommy' know you use these words?????????? Let me answer with your quote: Yes, if HE is the God of the Universe, not just of Jews or of Arabs. Sorry Elbaz, but your spelling is atrocious, I thought English was your second language!!! If that is how you spell & what you learned about world history, you owe the Canadian government some money back, & your parents an apology!!! Use spell check, OK? Take your time in writing your responses. Don't worry, we'll still be here. Are you sure about Israel?????????? OKay, you got me on Florida, it's a banana republic, I admit it!!! I don't trust Arafat, the Chinese, the French or the US either. Re-read your quote that follows: You tell me what that means??????? What??? Are we playing chess????? Tag????? This is a debate, a forum of ideas; you may win on ideas, thoughts, sometimes logic. But it's mostly a chat room, to share info, ideas, etc.... This shouldn't be a war of words; whose the quickest, most witty, sharpest tongue!!!!
Randolfo. I usually dont think when I write. I just write the first thing that pops into my head. This is debate ofcoarse, but this debate is going nowhere. Thats where the sharper tongue comes in. Plus, I have to agree with you on many points, but they are still mostly wrong on the general view like saying the arabs deserve 100% of the land. What kind of a compromise is that? Anyway, I swear I'm not lying when I say that I'm 15. Sometimes I sound 50 sometimes I sound 5, but I never lie about my age. If you dont believe me, I was born 9:37pm february 14, 1986 in the foothills hospital in calgary. Ask them and they will tell you. I never lie about my age. Infact I'm proud of my age. Anyway, I gtg because I have a ton of homework. They stuck me in some IB program where I'm given more work to do as if I wouldnt get enough or I enjoy doing it???!?!?
That's OK, but some adults may snag you on facts, dates, etc.., just be ready. And even if, it's your opinion, so state it & see if it flies anyway!? Why, nowhere? An exchange of ideas, thoughts, is ok too? Isn't it? Anyway, read Martin Luther King, Jr's, "I have a dream" speech, sure they're just words, but there are some deep thoughts behind them. It's not compromise, you're right. But lets say it was the reverse situation; that Jews, after 2 thousand years of living on the land, are ousted by the prior residents, that claim their god gave them this land for all eternity to their Forefather Ibrahim. Would it be right, if the shoe was on the other foot? What would you do? What would you expect them to do? Who would be justified? SoKay That's fine, so study what you have to & play when you have time. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
About that compromise thing......... Did you see the post about egypt and what they did. It had nothing to do with peace or nothing, they just dont want Jews going there. Unlike them Israel would not supress people as palestine would. ANYONE can live freely in Israel without persecution. Something I cannot say palestine would do if it existed in place of Israel. If Palestine existed nowadays then it would justify many offenses toward minorities such as Jews. I think a comprimise is a very fair thing. If they cant learn to peacefully coexist, oh well, like I said in some other post, there would be no option but war.
OK guys, now we find out if the US means business?!? It's too bad that for some people the only answer is violence!?! As a superpower, we may start doing stuff just like the Israelis, undercover guards on all flights. Maybe start with no carry-on luggage, etc. I heard that the weapons used were easily passed. I have a conspiracy-buff friend that is sure that the US has a DNA sniffing satellite( he says some guy he knows was killed after they developed the technology, I find it hard to believe, no evidence of its use earlier against Osama bin Laden), well if its true now is the time to use it!?! Now we find out what happens when you kick a hornets nest!?! Let's see what happens?!?
