A new approach to mental illness

I reread my post, and it does sound like I'm saying you're an atheist. I often think metaphorically. And I use the metaphorical comparisons in writing. This creates problems when others try to interpret what I'm saying, if they don't look at what I'm "trying" to say. In other words, they focus on part of the metaphor, and miss the point.

My intent was to use the idea that atheists don't believe in God, metaphorically, to compare some things you have said. For example:

"Almost every church service I have attended , some guy was saying , God had talked to them or God answered their prayers , etc...Do you think this is all said as some metaphorical statement ? From my experience , these type of things do not occur, nor have any supernatural events ever occured ."

You do not BELIEVE they occurred. (the atheist comparison) Does that make it "not so?" You and I differ on this point, Abnak. I feel that if a person believes in something, it is true for them.

You can't go around telling people, "I don't believe in that, so you're full of ****!" A lot of people do, but all it does is piss others off.

"These behaviors and statements are encouraged by authority figures . In other words , people are taught to personalize and expound on " programing " they have received . Being rewarded with a sense of belonging to a group might compel alot of people , except the stubborn individualists , to be led along like sheep ."

I think there are other factors involved in hallucinations and delusional thinking than "programming" "by authority figures." There are a lot more factors.

Creating a villian - a scapegoat - out of authority figures, getting angry, and going after that person, leaves out all of the other factors, and will most likely do worlds more harm than has already been done.

The worst "programming" is the kind our media perpetuates - good guys and bad guys. Cowboys and Indians. Cops and Bad Boys. God and Satan. Dichotomous thinking - black and white.

There is another way of thinking, but most of us have forgotten it. It is an all-inclusive way. The good of all involved. Resist the black and white stuff, or you are just as guilty as the villian - and think. Brainstorm. The right answer is the one that makes everyone happy.

 

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Abnak has asked "How I would use delusion to combat delusion" or something to that effect. ( I haven't learnt copy and paste on this notebook pc yet)

Voylady has used the example of persons delusded in thinking they are God, the typical God complex that seems so common among sufferers.
How would I approach this problem?

Firstly I may add that this has not been tried in clinical or other settings so in the main it is purely hypothetical.

I would approach the issue by firstly confirming that this is what the person believes. I woudl ask questions to identify what sort of God he thinks he is.
Say he replies that he is the God the one and only God. I woudl ask him what leads him to believe this without any attempt to discredit him.

He may say that he can read minds and influence people for example. I would ask him whether he thought God was only limited to mindreading and influencing people.
I would ask him to describe instances of the above.

I would then suggest to him that everyone has some capacity to influence people and mind read after all my wife does it all the time ( on both counts ha)
He would probably say at this point that his ability exceeds what he would consider normal. I would suggest that what is considered normal is a very grey area. I would go on to suggest that possibly he was aware more so than most of abilitiers we al;l take for granted and that may be he has certain ability that may be considered above average.
I would go on to ask him if he can consider his ability to be consistant and if so can he show me.
In most cases he will be unable to show any proof of ability to which I woudl rely that this also is quite common and that ability of this type is incredibly hard to master.

After the patient has managed to comprehend all this I would suggest that we learn how to control these abilities in a way that becomes productive.

Many sales people are really good at influencing people. Many people show great mind reading or anticipation abilities as well but I would ask does this make them "The God"

I would suggest that he has an above average sensitivity to his environment and with his conscent I would start to work with him so that he achieves a greater degree of comfort with his abilities.
At no time woudl I suggest that he was deluded except that he may be misuderstanding his mental state and provide him with a reference to wich he can work with.

Once the patient is grounded a little other abilities can be worked on such as life skills etc. The patient being much more receptive and less confrontational.

Voices? I hear you ask. ( did I say hear? )
I would ask him to describe avery thing they said and every thing he said I would ask him to take comprehensive notes even use a dictaphone I woudl take all of it seriously and pose questions that he should ask I would work with him in his communications, I woudl apply logic and reason to the whole issue and never deny their existence. I woudl assume that he was in fact talking to something whether it be a subconscious persona or his own or even one of some one elses I would get him to study and learne everthing he could and most of all I would inspire him to doubt the motivation of those voices and question everything that doesn't make sense.
I would work with him on all those questions etc.

I wouldl not send him out into society until an established regeim of question and answer was established and that he was able to avoid acting on the content of those voices. But most of all I would take it all very seriously never calling them delusion but only misunderstanding.

I would think that after about 2-3 months of intensive support the patient will be better equiped to deal with his issues.

During this time I would be helping to train his senses better etc etc and so on

 

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..."when others try to interpret what I'm saying... they don't look at what I'm "trying" to say."

Lady , I have only your words to interpret and can not read your mind as to your actual intent . If you did not articulate a thought sufficiently ( I have done that many times ), thanks for taking the time to clarify .

"You can't go around telling people, "I don't believe in that, so you're full of ****!"

When did I ever say that ? Opinions should be arrived at though a reasoning process involving experience and evaluating facts . You responses to me include many inaccuracies . It's like you are trying to read between the lines , then arriving at a conclusion that is really only faulty conjecture .
That said , over all , Lady , you do have some excellent points that I will consider .

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QQ, have you ever considered writing fiction novels ? Talk about an imaginary construct . It is interesting that the very thing levied against so called delusional people , is also utilized by the mental health "experts" ...ie: just making stuff up , then trying to convince others that it's real .

Good comment about that Quack though :

 

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Abnak, I obviously have failed in the first premise by assuming that we all can accept that metal health issues exist in the first place.

Abnak Can I ask you a fundamental question?

Do you believe that insanity exists or is a figment of our imagination that it does?

Do you believe that mental illness is a reality in this world of ours or do you think that it is all made up?u

 

Until I was about 17-18, I seemed to mess up in any social situation. My view of the right thing to say or do was out in left field, and I often made an ass of myself. I was good at almost everything else: Studies (especially math & physics), sports, using tools, et cetera. If I had not been a good athlete, I probably would have been a complete outcast with no friends and zilch social life.

My life changed when I stopped paying attention to what I thought was the right comment or action in social situations, and started imitating the behavior of those who did not make asses of themselves. At some point I decided to imitate successful social behavior even though it seemed weird to me.

Lo & behold, it worked. I stopped embarassing myself.

My advice to people with mental disorders is to mimic the behavior of those considered sane.

If saying that you are Napoleon gets you in trouble, lie and say you are John Smith or whatever people call you.

If you get in trouble every time you do what god tells you to do, ignore him.

If need be, go to a theatical school and apply what they teach you to the task of acting like a normal person, even though you know that normal people are unfeeling idiots with no idea of the real truth. Knowing the real truth can be painful if it is not accepted as the real truth by a large majority.

Decide to be wrong and be allowed to live free or be right and live in a straight jacket in a padded room, or in jail.

 

Dinosaur, you speak of great wisdom and I agree very much with what you have suggested.
One ability we often forget about is our ability to lie. and act or mimic our environment. This ability is one that could be nurtured within a schizophrenic for instance, sort of like "Hey man so you are god, big deal, look around you, do you think it matters whether you are or not, what matters is being able to feed yourself, communicate with people normally etc etc....."

Learn to keep a secret with comfort in mind.

Thanks Dinosaur for your imput, some may find great value in what you have suggested.

 

I know I keep piping in with the bi-polar situation, so please forgive, but that is what I know. In a depressed swing of the cycle you don't have the choice to "act" like someone else. You can barely survive waking, living, sleeping. The more severe part of the manic side, no one or his brother could ever convince you that anything is wrong with you, so "acting" wouldn't work there either. In a situation like Dinosaur described, it seems more of a social inability (I'm not judging here). Isn't this in fact how society really emerges: one person or group of people do certain things and the rest of us (sheep to the slaughter) follow? That is what children do when they start school. It seems to me that it just took Dinosaur awhile to pick up on what most learn younger.

 

fair comment, and of course it goes without saying that there is no "one fits all" approach.
Bi polar in my understanding is a collection of abilities that if looked at as such may shed some light. One ability in particular comes to mind and that is "sensory amplification"

 

" Do you believe that insanity exists or is a figment of our imagination that it does?"

Yes , detachment from reality exists . It can be a permanent disorder for some people , it can also be manufactured . Hypnosis is real . Individuals can be induced to behave in all manner of strange and illogical ways . Many mental health professionals use manipulative techniques to fudge diagnosis in favor of producing their desired result . People in distress are particularly susceptible to being led to respond in a certain way .

" Abnak, I obviously have failed in the first premise by assuming that we all can accept that metal health issues exist in the first place."

This would be a misunderstanding on your part ...and by using your own criteria for what constitutes delusion ...you are suffering from a mental disorder .

 

I am prepared to accept that I MAY be suffering from a mental disorder are you?

 

I was kidding QQ. Misunderstandings and the other items from your list for delusional behavior are normal occurrences for all human beings at some time during their lives .

Manipulation techniques by mental health professionals have a major effect on patient responses . This could be , and I believe is used ( knowingly and unknowingly ) to increase the likelihood of obtaining life long customers . This is influencing and dissimulation for profit - fraud .


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Am I willing to admit that I may be suffering a mental disorder? No, but I would not claim to be entirely sane and rational at all times.

I view mental illness to be an exaggeration of normal survival behavior.

If you do not expect anyone to ever cheat or harm you, you are too trusting and likely to be taken by scam artists and sucker punched by some would be bully when you turn your back on him. If you think there is a major conspiracy with you as the target, you are paranoid. At one end of a scale of 0 to 100, your life will be miserable because you are too trusting. At the other end of the scale, your life will be miserable because you spend too much time, emotional resources, and perhaps physical resources protecting yourself from an imaginary conspiracy.

Similarly for the manic depressive disorder. At zero on the scale, you have got to be the most bored and boring person imaginable. Never happy over the good things, never upset about the bad. No expectation of doing something useful with your life or abilities. No negative responses to failures. You cannot fail because you do not have the ambition to try anything a bit unusual. Up high on the scale in your manic stage, you think are Einstein, Michael Jordan, and Casanova. Nothing is impossible, and you are going out to do at least five incredible feats before lunch and impress the world with your skills. In the depressive stage, you are an unlovable, incompetent, worthless piece of dog doo, and might not survive your next suicide attempt.

Without a bit of the manic stage in your pesonality, you might not be willing to try to get a job, find a girl friend, et cetera. Without a bit of the depressive stage, you might have no critical judgment abilities to tone you down a bit. Can you go thorugh life with no mood swings at all?

As long as your position on each of the various scales allows you to function reasonablely well and have more happy moments than sad ones, I do not think you have a mental disorder, even though you might be suspicious enough of others to be classed as mildly paranoid, and/or have mood swings which might get you classified as manic depressive.

How many of you saw the movie in which Jack Nicholson played an obsessive compulsive? As disturbed as he seemed to be, he coped with life. He lived well and enjoyed himself. When the waitress quitting her job interfered with his rigorously scheduled life, he had the financial, intellectual, and emotional resources to take action. When circumstances indicates he might be happier taking a altered view of those around him, he modified his behavior slightly and improved his life. I would not call his mentally disturbed, merely very strange.

 

Correct and this is exactly what I am refering to as abilities that are at work that exceed that which allows for "normal" fiunction.

The abilities demonstarated by the mentally ill are just abilities we all take for granted and use "normally" It is when thoise abilitiess exceed the "Norm" and cripple the user that I would consider the peroson to be suffering a disorder.

People go to school for many years of their lives to learn ability and all I am suggesting is that because of the extremes involved the patient just basically go back to school and learn some more.

As Dinasaur has suggested the main criteria for diagnosis is whether the person can function in society even at a survival level. It is not about treating strangness but about treating and helping a patient survive better in society.

For most patients it is not just about getting a job but being able to pick up a telephone and making a call...to any one. It's about being able to watch Tv to fill in time. It's about being able to communicate at rudamnetary level, it's about getting through the day with out being picked up by police and taken to a hospital because he can't resist abusing other people etc etc etc.

Normal abilities out of control and at extreme states.

Learn to control and manage thoses abilities is what I am about with this proposal.

 

Abnak and others a good example of extreme beliefs and thinking could be a thread as linked here
Alien Jesus

Give it a read and let me know what you think, ( no you don't have to read all of it )

The person comcerned may be at presemt harmless but because of his precarious state could very well become dangerous to himself and others

 

"The person comcerned may be at presemt harmless but because of his precarious state could very well become dangerous to himself and others"

And how do you know this ? How do you know this person is on the level and not just pulling all our legs ? It's your imagination working overtime QQ .

You conjure up and extend . This is called science ? True, the ridiculousness of this persons statements invoke a derisive response , but why is his absurdity such a concern to you ? I think it is because you wish to control others .

Stephen King writes horror stories , with all manner of blood and guts and veins in teeth subject matter ; would you propose isolating him because his work is offensive to you . Why do you keep placing yourself in the position of spokesperson for "society" . I think it is because you wish to empower yourself .

The reality is QQ, not every one is as intelligent as you are .

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A follow up on the University of Pennsylvania shenanigans ...

This young women and others are being watched in their homes , through the use of hidden cameras . Judith Rodin reportedly is aware of this , even to the point of participation . This girl was raped , her "illness" induced , now she is some little plaything for some medical megalomaniac . If this was done to my child , I would......

 

Racket :

(1) An illegal endeavor (such as extortion or fraud or drug peddling ) carried on for profit .

 

Quack , plain and simply , you are a medical fabricator ,

Just so there is no misunderstanding on your part ...

If you fuck with me , my family or our property , I'll consider taking your eyes out with a spoon and forcing them down your throat .

 

Abnak, there is no where for you to hide..... You have no defense against me.....

Because I am your friend and not your enemy.....your fear of me is your fear of your self.

 

I never said you were my "enemy" . I am just stating facts as to your inventiveness and equivocating style .

I would also consider shaking your hand , yet this also is unlikely .

It would however , be an indication of your illogical mind and grotesque ambitiousness if you were to consider others your subhuman stepping stones .

Self defence is a natural right . Try as you may to twist and distort , you can not escape this truth . Rapists will be confronted .

 

Abnak,

This thread was posted as an attempt to offer an alternative approach to the issue of mental illness therapies. It is only an alternative and I might add only a suggestion which is why it is here.

It is unfortunate that this thread has degenerated in to an issue of fear, your fears and I might suggest that this is what my suggested approach wants to deal with...that being fear and how our imaginations react to it.

Your reponse quoted above reeks of a fear based reaction that is not founded in any way except by you and your own fear based self justifications.

On one hand you talk of plucking my eye balls out and shoving them down my throat and then tell me you are not my enemy.......What does this tell me do you think...?

You say that sef defence is a right but I ask you what or who are you defending your self from?
Me?
Not likely for I am not attacking you......so what are you so scared of? Or more importantly why are you imagining an enemy when there is none?

Mental disorder is primarilly about fear and how we react to fear and in the most part fear of ourselves and whilst you will claim that this is not demonstrated in your posts to this forum I suggest that if you have the courage you read your postings and have a look at them with the question in mind...."What am I fearing?"

If you wish we can talk of forum but this is up to you........