More killing of wounded Iraqis by US forces

Discussion in 'World Events' started by EI_Sparks, Jan 18, 2004.

  1. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    I didn't notice that. When this plays on AL-Jazeera the anti-occupation resistance is going to rally.
     
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  3. Spyke Registered Senior Member

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    Well, in the tape I'm viewing one Iraqi is standing right there by the weapon when the helo fires on the Iraqi between the tractor and the truck, and is in the process of picking it up and unwrapping it before the helo swings it 30mm on to him. And you can't be sure where there was one RPG there was not another. Those pilots had no idea what could be in the back of the truck. That 3rd Iraqi by the truck could have quickly grabbed a weapon out of the back. With you as my co-pilot I could easily wind up dead.

    Becaue contrary to your biased opinion, they aren't murderers.

    And you know that because...?

    If they're running around with weapons they are.

    One, you have no idea if the weapon wasn't already armed, and two, you have no idea if there weren't other weapons on the scene, particularly in the truck. Assuming that there aren't when you approach gets you killed.



    In a war zone it is.
     
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  5. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    I would be one nervous farmer, or freedom fighter, bouncing through a field in a truck loaded with clattering ready-to-fire RPGs.

    One word for those making the pathetic unsubstantiated attempt to suggest that the persons killed had weapons:

    Secondaries.

    "In a war zone..."

    This is not a war zone. The Arabian Gulf was not a war zone when the USS Vincens took out an Airbus full of innocent civilians, whose pilots communicated and were issued flight plans and clearance, who reported handoffs on open frequency in English per worldwide routine.

    This is an occupation. If you behave with "war zone" Rules of Engagement, you inevitably lose the minimum of popular local, regional, and international support that is necessary to persist and prevail. You ultimately go home in palpable shame, if you live to go home at all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2004
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  7. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    Then you're watching a different video. The dumped object is about fifty yards or so in front of the tractor and to it's left in the other field. The three Iraqis are at the tractor, walking between tractor and truck, and at the truck.

    He's not unwrapping anything, that's his clothing. You'll note he's not wearing jeans and a shirt...

    I can, however, be sure that those three men didn't have an RPG loaded and in their hands and thus the Apache had the drop on them. They were easily capturable.

    Which is not a reason to fire, it's a reason not to fire.

    Firstly, that 3rd Iraqi is already wounded, and secondly, he's not hiding behind the pickup where the object came from (and which we still don't know is an RPG), and thirdly, the Apache is over three times the maximum range of the RPG away.

    There was, in other words, no threat.

    And yet, that's exactly what the tape shows them to be.

    I have more evidence to show that they're farmers than the Apache crew had to show that they're insurgents.

    Prove it's a weapon. I say it's not and you have no evidence to prove me wrong. The thing is too long to be an empty RPG-7 launcher, too light to be a loaded one and too light and not bulky enough to be a stinger.


    Except that I do. It's too heavy to carry one-handed and run without leaning a little to the side - and you don't throw an armed RPG-7 on the ground because the grenade has a fuse that goes off on impact.

    Not when you're riding in an Apache whose cockpit is designed to withstand 23mm cannon fire and whose cockpit glass is designed to withstand 12mm cannon fire, and not when I've got a 30mm cannon slaved to my helmet-mounted aiming system and not when I'm over three times the maximum range of the RPG away.
    I can approach at my leisure and challange them - and should they produce a weapon, I can kill them with ease. Nor can they flee, because my aircraft has a cruise speed of 150mph.


    Actually, in a war zone, those men were protected by the Geneva Convention and so it's a war crime. And those are classed as murder.
     
  8. 15ofthe19 35 year old virgin Registered Senior Member

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    There you go again...

    He's picking something up off the ground and trying to unwrap it, whatever it is. That's plain as day.
     
  9. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Really? Then obviously, he and all around him deserve to be shredded alive.

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  10. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    Actually, it's as plain as day that he's wearing a dishadasha or a kameez (which are long loose robes) and a shora (the normal arabic headdress). Ever crouch in one of those?
     
  11. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    And where the hell is he supposed to have gotten something to unwrap anyway? There's nowhere on that tractor to hide anything - are you saying he's carrying a loaded RPG-7 under his clothes?

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  12. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Since the Apache crew did not positively identify the "things" that those Iraqi's were carrying then it is a violation of the Geneva conventions is it not?
     
  13. Spyke Registered Senior Member

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    There are enemy combatatants, technicalities aside, and attempting to re-direct to the Airbus incident, which is irrelevant to this, not withstanding.

    I know where the 3 Iraqis are, and the object is right behind the tractor and the one Iraqi bends down and grabs it and starts pulling the wrap off when the man in the field is hit.

    I know my eyes aren't that bad, and 15 is apparently seeing what I'm seeing.

    The only way they could have been captured was for the helo to have exposed itself by coming much closer. It took around 30 seconds for the helo to lock on at take out all 3 men, more than enough time for the helo to have been hit.

    But they knew that they had at least one weapon, so they had every reason to fire.

    What are you talking about. First, the Iraqi behind the 2 1/2 ton was not already wounded. He was the 3rd one hit, second, the pilot believed it to be a weapon and you don't know any different, and third, we were talking if the helo had approached the 3 to attempt to capture them. The RPG-7 has a range of 500km on stationary targets.

    No direct threat, but they presented a threat if the helo apporached, or if they had let them preceed they posed a threat to other US forces.

    Oh yes, right. Because they're in a field.

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    Prove it's not. I say it is and you have no evidence to prove it isn't.

    ridiculous.

    It's not too heavy. It only weighs roughly 15 lbs. I don't know about you, but I can carry one one-handed, and most rocket-propelled launchers, while you might not want to slam one down too hard, nevertheless generally have automatic arming systems, either from the propulsion or in the spin of the rocket once launched.

    Gosh, if it was that easy the US would have as yet to have lost an Apache to hostile fire, but we know that's not so, don't we?

    No, in a war zone, men acting suspiciously with weapons genrally are classed as targets.
     
  14. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    "attempting to re-direct to the Airbus incident, which is irrelevant to this..."

    Absolutely not. This video will be interpreted by Iraqis and many others just as they interpreted the destruction of the Iran Air Airbus: They have a rogue superpower in their midst, who will destroy many lives and peoples if not exorcised.

    War zone rules do not apply to the conditions of maintaining an occupation.
     
  15. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    That's simply incorrect. Look at the video again. The man drops whatever that object is in the field well to the left and in front of the tractor.

    *sigh*
    Watch the video. Watch the men walk about. Look at their clothing and the way that it moves. They are wearing robes and things that look like robes. And the man who is crouching behind the tractor has a long headdress - you can see it moving and swaying about as he runs around before they're shot at.

    Really? The gunship was a kilometre away and wasn't ever seen. They were in fact so far away that they had trouble ranging to their target initially. And they took their time shooting. That's why it took 30 seconds. Not because it was a difficult task. Your explanation doesn't hold water.


    They did not know anything of the sort. And neither do we. Whatever that thing is, it's wrapped up and we never see it directly. We do know it's not long enough to be an unloaded RPG-7 and not bulky enough to be a Stinger, and we're rather sure noone throws loaded RPG-7s around like that.
    All that means that it's less likely to be a weapon than it is to be something else.


    You need to re-read my posts above. I've even given a screenshot highlighting where he's first wounded.

    I do know, however, that he had no proof it was a weapon, and that looking at the video doesn't support the premise that it is one.

    500m. On a stationary target. Not a moving one. And that assumes that you can actually get to one and aim it without the target shredding you with 30mm cannon fire.

    What a load of hogwash. Are you trying to tell me that the apache was powerless to defend itself? Pah.

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    They're unarmed, in a field, ploughing.
    Now I don't know about you, but when I see a man ploughing a field on a tractor, I think "farmer" not "terrorist"...

    I have the evidence that they don't treat it like a weapon and it doesn't look like one.
    And last time I checked, if you kill a man because you think he's armed,
    1) You have to prove he was armed; and
    2) You have to prove he was actually able to be a threat.

    In other words, a wrapped bundle of sticks a hundred yards away is not a valid reason to open fire.

    Really? Well, I'm basing this on fact, so it ought to be easy enough to disprove. Go look up how long an RPG-7 is, and what a Stinger looks like, then watch the video again.

    And has anyone seen an after-action report yet?

    I could carry that much. I wouldn't run with it the way he's running with it though, and I'm not a slender lad.

    So basicly, you wouldn't throw a loaded RPG-7 on the ground, then?

    What weapons???
     
  16. Undecided Banned Banned

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    I think this picture should help with weapon identification:

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    In comparison to the mans body, and

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    Simply on the ground.

    As for the only other weapon they could have been carrying a SA-7 Grail (Pakistani version shown):

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    That doesn't look like either one to me...
     
  17. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    I saw nothing unusual in the video. If someone even appears to unwrap a weapon when they see you coming, you have to assume they will use it, and take first action. This is not LA, it's Iraq, it's a freaking WAR! If it turns out they were only unloading a bunch of baseball bats, well, it's was just not their lucky day, must be the will of Allah.
     
  18. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    It was a Nimbus 2000, he was going to hop on it and knock down the Apache with the Quiddich.
     
  19. Spyke Registered Senior Member

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    Bottom line, if I'm the pilot and I perceive someone to be a hostile threat, particularly if I'm in the same zone the day after the bloodiest day since April, it doesn't matter whether I believe they are a direct threat to my Apache but to my comrades in arms at a later date, I'm taking them out and letting armchair critics on Internet message boards bitch about it all they want.
     
  20. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Git some, then: But understand, it won't change anything but you, and someday you'll wish you could go back and not do it.
     
  21. Spyke Registered Senior Member

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    Actually, I agree with you there.
     
  22. Stokes Pennwalt Nuke them from orbit. Registered Senior Member

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    Why is it that some of you feel the need to judge soldiers so harshly? Being as ignorance and idiotic speculation seem to be the basis for this judgment, why do some of you adhere so strongly to these half-baked convictions?

    Don't agree with the war in Iraq? Don't agree with "war" in general? That is fine. They could care less what you think about the necessity or morality of war...they're just there to do a job. But what makes YOUR opinion so special that the nation's scope of morality should be based off of it? The majority of Americans were in favor of the war in Iraq. The vast majority of people aren't ignorant enough to think that war isn't sometimes a necessary evil. And, whether you like it or not, their opinions count just as much as yours does. To pass judgment on a soldier because you are so arrogant as to think the spectrum of morality stops at your doorstep is beyond reprehensible.

    Most of the soldiers who go into combat are very young. They are UNIVERSALLY terrified. The last place in the world they want to be is where they are, and the last thing they want to do is to take the life of another person. This is an absolute fact. No soldier WANTS to kill. However, these soldiers made a decision that they would give of themselves, sacrifice their own safety, their own comfort and their own aversion to killing so that others would not have to. They signed up so no others will be sent in their place. They took up the mantle of defending the world's democracies, and in doing so they WILL sacrifice.

    So, feel free to shuttle yourself from home to work and back again, to sit in your cubicles or at your computer at home, living a life of comfort and boredom. Feel free to sloth away at your computer, pecking out judgments based on half-truths and incorrect speculations. You have that right, of course. However, keep in mind that your right to do so is contingent upon the willingness of young men and women to give of themselves to defend your freedom. Your right to criticize them is something they would die to defend.

    Maybe you think that means they deserve your "support". Maybe it doesn't. They will gladly take on the physical and mental challenges, the responsibilities of military leadership, the dangers and the fear that are implicit in soldiering. They'll do this so that you'll never have to. They do it so you'll probably never have to be forcibly removed from your comfortable, sedate suburban existance and be dragged kicking and screaming to the draft office, where you'll fumble through a half dozen ways of weasling out of service before you'll finally just run off to Canada.

    All things considered, Americans have it pretty good. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that the efforts of the American military don't play a part in mantaining that lifestyle. All they ask from you in exchange for their efforts is a little bit of understanding, a little bit of compassion, and some tax money. If that is just too much for you to bear, you're an astonishingly self-centered person.

    Flame away.
     
  23. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

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    Stokes, that doesn't fly. All the US armed forces are volunteers.
    And being scared does not give you leave to murder people.
     

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