Pss.22 [1] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? [2] O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. [3] But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. [4] Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. [5] They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. [6] But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. [7] All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying, [8] He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. [9] But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. [10] I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. [11] Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. [12] Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. [13] They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. [14] I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. [15] My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. [16] For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. [17] I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. [18] They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. [19] But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. [20] Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. [21] Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. [22] I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. [23] Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. [24] For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. [25] My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. [26] The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. [27] All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. [28] For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations. [29] All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. [30] A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. [31] They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this. _________________________________________________ the question is who is the man speaking those words and who is the entity being referred to as THEE. To the christians on this board...By what ounce of imagination do you take these words to imply that Jesus is god himself...I know that if I was as down as the man above that I would use similar or even stronger words to plea my desperate case...
Christians don't use psalm 22 to prove that Jesus is God. Since Jesus said on the cross "my, my God why have you forsaken me" it is against claims that the Father forsake Jesus. Of course Muslims don't believe that the Father would ever forsake Jesus but they deny the entire crucification. Jesus does not need to plea his case. The Father is God of Jesus yet both share in one divinity.
Precisely, Christians pick and chose the verses that they use to proof that Jesus is god, do you know why???? because Jesus is not god and never claimed to be one...and they sure ignore much and adopt less and less of their bible every day. And by the way, god forsake Jesus as a messanger and an apostle to Israel....God never forsake Jesus to be take his place and steal the worship and glory of god to himself.
blah blah blah. So, Flores, when are you going to turn your razor sharp intellect on your own religion?
Are you implying that because he uses the phrase Thee, that Jesus is not God? Perhaps he was, and didn't realize it until later. God can do anything, can't he? Even play hide-and-seek with himself in the form of mortal beings. Your argument is weak. The bible is poetry, which is a kind of language that can express more subtle concepts than the language of scientific thought and logic.
I hate to break it to you but Christians through the holy Spirit chose what books to canonize in the bible. Psalm22 is a generic pslam probably recited by the Isrealites everyday and it's somewhat a leap that Jesus indentifies of himself in this pslam. Jesus never claimed to be God but the Son of God. We recognize the Son of God to share in one divinity of God because Jesus was not created. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Don't muslims believe that Jesus was perfect in following the will of God? Jesus did not steal the glory of the Father. In his own words he said that he came to glorify the Father. Similarly, Jesus says that those who glorify the Son glorify the Father.
Personally I am one Christian who has never said jesus was God himself (as far as I know anyway). Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Just what I said. Through the holy Spirit and Tradition the Church choose books representative of her teachings. I don't quite get the point you are making. I am who I am has always existed and was not created. Jesus was begotten from the father but eternally begotten from the Father. Not made because there exists no time or place when Jesus did not exists. When Jesus assumed human nature, we speak of the incarnation. But Jesus existed before the incarnation because he said "before Abraham, I AM". I don't quite get your theology on this. Are we in heaven? There is no savior but God(Isaiah). Our death and rebirth surely cannot save us. Only God can. We are not justified by our life but our faith in God, His life within us. I won' question hypothetically what Jesus taught. But as is contained in the gospel accounts, Jesus said "no one is good but God". We don't have goodness. Jesus also said that he does nothing without his Father approval. Far short of claiming that we are god. If we are god then is Jesus god too? Jesus said that no one enters into His father's kingdom unless if they enter through him because he is the gate.
I believe what Jesus said said. The holy Spirit will guide you to all truth and that the Church will prevail against the gates of hell. This is not to say that every book in the canon has the same weight as the four gospel accounts by no means. Moreoever, I think some of the books were chosen by Tradition and the conventual logical means of discovering truth. The holy Spirit would only have to impede if a book that taught falsehood was going to be chosen. In this case, the holy Spirit would reveal that book as being false. Jesus assumed human nature in the incarnation. Although God is infinite, Jesus bonded with the human nature in a hypostatic union. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm When I said not created, I meant that Jesus existed before birth. I really can't explain any deeper than this. When Mary asked how it could be so, she was given a sort of vague response as well. We are all begotten by God insofar as we follow Him and have not been rejected. We are not, however, eternally begotten by God. This expresses more of a relationship that Jesus plays in the godhead rather than a specific time when that relationship was formed. I do not believe in eternal spirits but some early chrisitans such as Origen did and latter day Mormons. You are mortal and have existed since conception. Your spirit is not imortal although it appears so because in God's mercy he does not vanish a soul into non-existance. From what I've read on this, the Catholic church does not really believe in a duality between spirit and body. We believe that while living, the body and soul are inextricably linked. This passage does not really concern the Septuagint, which usually refers to the old testament. I do not think that greek as the same sort of trouble that english has with "God" stemming from "good" but in the context of that passage it is clear what Jesus meant. He said "why do you call me good?" and then "no one is good but God". A further explanation is given below what Jesus said. We are only good insofar as we have the grace of God. In some ways I think you are refering to the anti-christ who I believe is the face of all evil on earth. If there is anything that I'm sure of, I'm sure that I am not God. I do not quite understand why you are so adamant about being God. Does this make God have 10 billion persons in one divine nature? What are your requirements for being God and what are the attribitutes of God? I'm quite certain that I have been created, that I am not omnipresent, that I'm not omnipotent, and that I've never really created anything(conservation of matter and energy).
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! That was amazing genius spidergoat.. so full of logic... Who are YOU accusing of weak arguments?
And what religion would that be??? Please be precise in your answer....perhaps use a paragraph to describe MY religion....A one word answer is not acceptable.
And may you explain to me the meaning of the word son as used to describe the relationship of Jesus to god...Is it a biological sonship..obviously not, Is it a spiritual sonship...perhaps...but still what does that mean???Son relationships generally mean a production or continuation of an original design intended to take over...If the original design is complete on it's on, which I believe god is, rich of wants, then a son is not needed....Is Jesus a minigod who will one day grow to be a god?...or is Jesus a baby that will never grow?...Could the word son as used in the bible perhaps imply "servant of" or "follower of". I think so..At the least consider the fact that jesus was called the "son of david"..and the "son of man"..In addition, all christians believe that they are children of god..so what is the real meaning behind these words. No, Muslims refrain from judging humans that includes Muhammed, jesus, ect...We believe that these guys delivered the word of god and were strengthened by the holly spirit, but we don't know the hearts of the apostles and god shall judge them based on what they gained or lost in their lives. Muslims also filter the Quran with their hearts. Our filters are all different and thus every muslim have a different believe than the other, and to god is our return and judgement, and we submit to god. You completely missed my point. You must understand the meaning of the term glory to even understand what Jesus was saying...Jesus as an apostle of god has a specific function of delivering the message...When some people completely miss the message and start calling Jesus god and such, Jesus is not glorified, but ashamed...Just like he said above. [7] All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying, [8] He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. Those people who scorn Jesus are as bad as those that make a god out of Jesus...Both parties missed the point...It it enough for jesus that people trust in god, and that in turns glorifies Jesus in reaffirming that Jesus brought the truth. By denying the truth and god, you're calling Jesus a liar, and not glorifying him. I don't know about you guys, but to glorify me is to simply agree with my believe or place me in the correct light and the correct context...If Ms. Flores comes up with this idea out of the blue that she totally believed in it, my reward wouldn't be money or even being appointed as Queen, but it would be confirmation that I had the truth and true application of the truth that I brought...The most thing you can do to hurt me is to corrupt my ideas by twisting it and adding to it and still claim it to be mine....Nothing can hurt an idealist, which Jesus was, more than changing the idea....It's like telling Einstien that he invented quantum..Einstien hates quantum and never believed it, and even though you are thinking that you are glorifying Einstein by attributing to him a great theory, you are really insulting him..I believe Jesus means the same thing when speaking of glory and shame. Seeing Jesus in the correct light is the most glory that can be given to jesus, but many think of glory as parrot worshiping and blowing an object out of proportion, and it's nothing of the sort.
Someone who is christian must trust the knowledge recieved by the Holy Scriptures. If Jesus was important in God's plan, then God will have made sure that what is written about him testifies truthfully. Jesus claimed to be the truth, the way, and the life. Depends on context. Sometimes it includes protestant brethen other times it is inclusive of Catholics only. This is really just terminolgy for the sake of clarification and does not convey any doctrin. It's the middle area between hell and heaven. It is sort of a wasteland typified by exodus. Arkward sentance. Intercede is not the right word either. What I mean is that the holy Spirit would forbid that kind of fallacy to enter into the Church. They were not apostles. They did not proclaim new doctrin. However, they were entrusted with preserving the Church. It's my belief that they had help from God. Jesus has a complely human nature and completly divine nature. These were united in the incarnation. Were not a divine part of the godhead. Are you claiming that when Dinos were around you existed? Since you do not seem to believe in heaven, where exactly did you exist? The Septuagint means of 70 schollars or something like that. It's a Greek old testament text before the Talmud. It contains the books that are in the Catholic canon plus a few others. But the actual books in it varies. It's older than the Massoretic hebrew text, and although the Septuagint has some short fallings, there are supposed to be known corruptions within the Massoretic text. The Septuagint is what most of the new testament quotes from. I think the position of duality is against certain protestant groups that see themselves have two natures: the flesh and the spirit. While the gospel given by Paul uses this metaphore, they are not really two separate natures, I think. I've heard other christians say they do not sin but their flesh nature sins. I don't think the 3rd one counts. Since you do not seem to believe in anyway to percieve this divine statement aside from these rules, there is no way to know that these rules are truthful or that these rules are corrected. Definition 2 is recursive. For the sake of argument, where was God when there was no humans?
Children of God is a term that is used in the old testament in Deuteronomy where Moses gives the Isrealites the song of the Rock. At one point He says, "have you forgotten the Rock that begotten you." Jesus uses the term Son of God because he is the heir to His Father's kingdom and he does whatever the Father asks of him and everything that he asks from the Father he recieves. The son of Man is a term used by the prophet Ezekiel. But the context that Jesus uses the term is similar to the book of Enoch. In this book, the Son of Man is the firstborn of God's creation but it is not clear whether the Son of Man is God or not. Perhaps this was in a hadith. I think the Quran says that the all the revelations from the prophets were perfect. I don't think this implies perfection though. The end of Mathew shows his disciples worshiping him. Since Jesus claims that he is the light, I cannot see him differently.
It would be helpful if you told us. I was refering in particular to that thread discussing the origins of the Quran. Are you a muslim, or a hybrid, or pagan or what?
