40 anniversary of JFK's assassination tomorrow

I'm aware of the use of that term

But what you don't seem to realize is that the term "High-Powered" is about as definitive as describing a boxer as hard hitting. All boxers are hard hitting, otherwise they wouldn't be boxers. But obviously as hard as Thomas Hearns hit people, he would have been utterly destroyed by Larry Holmes. You're relying on a report that took a completely subjective term and tried to make it empirical evidence.

 

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well

obviously some 'experts' (I use quotes cause They are not named) believe otherwise, and that 2000 fps is not high powered, but you must agree that's an important point.

 

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I think they missed the point

The point is simple: the mans head was blown apart by a bullet that most certainly did not come from the TSBD. What is the relevance of the speed of that bullet? I think you're getting bogged down in details.

 

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Re: I think they missed the point

I agree, the point is simple. However, the evidence is exculpatory, i.e. exclusional, and is considered the best evidence in murder cases. Who cares where the bullet came from, if Oswald and that Manlicher-Carcano didn't do it, then there's your conspiracy and government cover-up. Seems to me, that's the first thing one would look at. Is it really the murder weapon?

 

paulsamuel, I think either you or the "experts" you are refering to
have some details mixed up. First, the M91/38 Carcano shown by
the reports was a "short rifle," not a carbine. The M91/38TS was the
carbine version, 4 inches shorter and wood stocked to the end of the
barrel, 36 inches overall. The M91/38 was 40 inches overall ( a longer
barrel.) The stock military ball ammo (full metal jacket) had a muzzel
velocity of about 2045 fps from the carbine and about 2200 fps from
the short rifle. Both could easily blow the back of a man's head out,
BUT ONLY IF THE BULLET ENTERED FROM THE FRONT. Entrance wounds are small, about the bullet diameter, but exit wounds from
a skull hit are large, because of the pressures built up inside the
head and the fragile skull being blown outward. The bullet that traveled through JFK's back and neck and through the Governor
was most likely fired by Oswald. The bullet that blew the nearly
2 inch hole in the back of JFK's head, if that's where the hole was,
would have been fired from the front quartering angle. Two shooters,
in my opinion. And yes, I am very familar with firearms and cartridges,
having been a hand loader of ammo and an ex combat veteran.

 

The ongoing discussion about the rifle is all well and good, but they matched the bullet found in Connally to the rifle fpund in the TSBD. There were three shell cases. Almost all witnesses heard three shots (some were confused by the echo). Connally immediately trurns to his right and looks behind towards the TSBD when the first shot is fired (that missed).

The autopsy shows two entry wounds in Kennedy and two exit wounds. The shot that killed him did not blow the back of his head off - it was the area aroubnd the right temple. There is an entry wound in the back of his head (as the autopsy photographs show). JFK was bent down and leaning slightly to one side when the final killing shot struck. It is all perfectly consistent with the lone assassin theory - the correct one.

If you want to argue fro a conspiracy you need to show a faked autopsy, planted evidence, removed evidence and all done in minutes. It is a massive conspiracy you allege involving hundred if not thousands of people. Indeed, if the autopsy was faked you would actually have to argue that Jackie Kennedy was in on it because she selected the hospital for the autopsy! When asked she wanted to send the body to Bathesda becasue JFK 'was a navy man'.

And then you have to explain all the ther problems - such as the fact Oswald killed officer Tippet (with perfectly fine evidence in this case - this shooting can hardly be doubted). If he's innocent why was he the only one to flee from the TSBD? What about his earlier attempt to kill a local politician several months before with the same rifle? More planted evidence? Could a second shooter have fired the shot that struck Kennedy in the back of the neck? No? So then Oswald definitely is involved - but then whgy on earth would you have a guy liike as Oswald as part of your conspiracy?

The big picture just screams - Oswald acted alone to me. I come back to Occam's Razor - don't multiply entities beyond necessity. For all its many faults the Warren Commission saw this.

Oswald acted alone. Best conclusion we can come to.

 

Hey, Gendanken!

I'm afraid that was addressed to 15 of the 19, not tiassa. Being below it might have given that away.

On the other hand I agree with what you said about the JFK assassination and the gvt preffering quite stab in the dark stuff.

 

Thanks for your input. But, at the risk of offending anyone, I will continue to give credence to the questions raised about the weapon in the references I cited until I have other published references with which to compare.

In addition, according to Murder in Dealy Plaza (Fetzer, 2000), the bullets, which were standard copper jacketed WWII vintage military ammunition, could not have caused the explosive damage. The lateral cranial X-ray of the president's skull display a pattern of metallic debris as the impact of an exploding bullet, which could not have been caused by the ammunition Oswald allegedly used.

 

I don't believe they did, what is your reference? Bullet fragments in the limo were linked to the rifle, but this points to conspiracy because the 'magic bullet' is pristine.

This is out and out wrong and stated to mislead the reader (which I find dispicable). Most heard more than three shots, and those who were closest to the president's limo saw missiles hitting the pavement around the limo and suggest 7 to 8 shots, these witnesses include motorcade police officers!

Another statement with no purpose except to mislead the reader. Connally has ALWAYS contended that shots came from the grassy knoll area.

Again, these staements are not meant to inform, but to mislead. There is an 'official' autopsy photo, in the National Archives that shows the back of the president's skull blown out. In addition, EVERY doctor, at both Parkland and Bethesda, describe the same massive blowout to the back of the president's skull. Only the doctors who never saw Kennedy, i.e. those who only saw photos, e.g. the doctors on the Clark Panel and the specialists at HSCA, claim the back of president's skull was intact. Also, the supposed exit wound in the neck (which BTW was described as an entrance wound no less than three times by Dr. Malcolm Perry at the Parkland Hospital news conference on the day of the assassination) was never examined as a bullet wound (let alone an exit wound) at the autopsy because Drs. Boswell and Humes mistakenly thought that it was a tracheostomy incision wound. We see that Captain Canada has little or no knowledge in this matter and relys on his own opinions and not the evidence.

What are you talking about, they had hours before the autopsy, then months before any investigation.

Not necessarily, just a handful with a bunch of others willing to follow orders with no question.

Oswald couldn't have killed Tippet if he was where the Oswald accusers put him. Impossible, he didn't have the time.

Obviously, he knew he was being set-up.

Sure, why not a third or a fourth and a fifth. I bet there was at least 5.

Just a bunch of spoonfed crap to a naive public.

 

I am going to side with paulsamuel on this one. I have found the
autopsy photos and they don't reflect the "official" story. JFK was
NOT shot in the back of the neck. That bullet's trajectory was from
about 6 inches below his collar on his back to the bottom of his neck
on his front side, angled down from front to back. The autopsy photos
also show much of his skull was blown out in the back, with a smaller
entrance wound near his right eye/temple region. I have a link to
the photos, maybe not for everyone, as some are quite graphic.
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/Autopsy_photos/BE2_HI.JPG
The link above is a high res photo of the back of JFK's head, with
the scalp pulled to one side. Here is a link to all the autopsy photos
with links to others..
http://www.jfklancer.com/aphotos.html
If anyone wants detailed info on the Carcano rifles, including photos
of C2766, the one supposedly used to kill JFK, here is a link...
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~glibera1/carcano/

 

What I would like to know, did the pavement receive it's usual "maintenance" repairs shortly afterwards?

wouldn't that cover up any noticable damage made by any additional missiles hitting the pavement (if any)

 

Dear Captain Canada:

Better to be in such a T-shirt than a straightjacket.

You see, while the hysterical Canadian has been peeing in everyone’s ear and calling it logic, there is another compelling piece of evidence that has been overlooked. It is why the Warren Commission was FORCED to come up with the magic bullet theory. While the wuss from Canada claims the assassination could NOT have been a conspiracy because…..well, there really is no reason that he gives, he would, in effect, be stating that the witnesses at Dealey Plaza themselves have formed some sort of conspiracy. Yes, it seems the people that were actually there have gotten together symbiotically and decided to testify AGAINST the Warren Commission’s findings. Now you must give full credit to them, because they did so BEFORE even knowing what the Commission would find. That would give them the gift of prophecy as well!

The piece of evidence I am referring to is this.

http://www.altreel.com/conspiracy/JFK_Assassination_Trivia.html

"The Warren Commission thought they had an open-and-shut case. Three bullets, one assassin. But two unpredictable things happened that day that made it virtually impossible. One, the eight-millimeter home movie taken by Abraham Zapruder while standing by the grassy knoll. Two, the third wounded man, James Tague, who was knicked by a fragment, standing near the triple underpass. The time frame, five point six seconds, determined by the Zapruder film, left no possibility of a fourth shot. So the shot or fragment that left a superficial wound on Tague's cheek had to come from the three shots fired from the sixth floor depository. That leaves just two bullets. And we know one of them was the fatal head shot that killed Kennedy. So now a single bullet remains. A single bullet now has to account for the remaining seven wounds in Kennedy and Connelly. But rather than admit to a conspiracy or investigate further, the Warren Commission chose to endorse the theory put forth by an ambitious junior counselor, Arlen Spector, one of the grossest lies ever forced on the American people. We've come to know it as the 'Magic Bullet Theory.' This single-bullet explanation is the foundation of the Warren Commission's claim of a lone assassin. Once you conclude the magic bullet could not create all seven of those wounds, you'd have to conclude that there was a fourth shot and a second rifle. And if there was a second rifleman, then by definition, there had to be a conspiracy." --Jim Garrison, JFK [1991]

Now Tague himself has written a book on this subject obviously designed to throw us all off the scent of Oswald. Clever. Diabolically clever.


http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031110/phm007a_1.html

“This year's conference will include new interviews with doctors, medical personnel, FBI agents and witnesses such as James Tague, the man who was actually wounded by a missed shot fired in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963. Tague has recently finished a book recording his eyewitness account of the assassination and his experience with the delay, denial and incomplete investigation conducted by the Warren Commission. Tague was a friend of Harold Weisberg, one of the first individuals to sue the government under the Freedom of Information Act over unreleased F.B.I. documents. Many of the documents in Tague's book, TRUTH WITHHELD, were obtained by Mr. Weisberg and Tague documents the proof of evidence tampering in his book.”

And then we come to this website.

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/Witness/witnessMap/Tague.htm

Because we must ask ourselves was he actually there? Well, it seems he was because he was interviewed by FBI and what did they report?

FBI REPORT: December 14, 1963

He did not see the shots take effect and stated he could not furnish any information as to where the shots actually came from.

Odd wording to put into an FBI report because we can see what Mr. Tague actually said.

DEPOSITION: March 23, 1964

Mr. TAGUE. I thought they were coming from my left. [7H556]

Mr. TAGUE. I believe they [shots] came from up in here [knoll]. [7H557]
Mr. LIEBELER. Back in the area "C"? [CE354]
Mr. TAGUE. Right.

INTERVIEW, Mark Lane: March 1966. The film Rush To Judgment

LANE. At the time you first heard the shots what was your impression as to the origin of the shots?
TAGUE. My first impression was that they had come from the left of me.
LANE. Would you indicate on the picture where that would be?
TAGUE. Up in this area here towards the hill.
LANE. Where in relation to that wooden fence?
TAGUE. Somewhere towards the wooden fence.


Well, but it’s all talk isn’t it. By a man that is obviously in some sort of conspiracy to keep us thinking Oswald didn’t act alone. And then we come to this website. The mystery deepens and we see how far this conspiracy grows. Tague will stop at nothing!

http://grandsubversion.com/jfk_assassination/shots/shotspg1.htm

For if you go to that site you will clearly see a evidence of another bullet where Tague stood. (Everyone should go to this website for there is lots more including an audio tape of FOUR shots! It’s strange that these other shots didn’t have an “echo” attached to them!) Now how did Tague manage this? Read:

“THE SHOT THAT MISSED:

And that problem would come in the fact that a bystander James T. Tague who was Standing near the railroad overpass and across the medium was Stuck in the face by either cement particles or bullet fragments. when a bullet had struck the nearby curb,”

Were there even witnesses to this shot fired? Oh, yeah!

“< HSCA >
In testimony before the Warren commission on July 22, 1964, James Thomas Tague of Dallas stated that at the time of the Presidential motorcade, he was located near his car at the bridge abutment of the triple underpass.(328) Tague said that during the shots he felt something sting him on the cheek; after the shots, a policeman noticed that Tague had blood on his cheek.

Mrs. Virgie Baker (nee Rackley) testified before the Warren Commission of July 112, 1964. At that time, she stated that the object she believed to be a bullet hit the pavement in the street at the point of the Stemmons Freeway sigh on Elm Street.(316) She said it hit in the middle of the lane on the other side of the street, which would have been the left-hand lane going in the direction of the triple underpass.(317) At first Mrs. Baker said the bullet hit behind the President's car. Then she said she could not remember whether it hit to either side or behind the President's car.(318) Mrs. Baker said she was sure she saw the object hit before she heard the second shot.

On August 5, 1978, the committee received information from former Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis that Ellis had also seen a missile hit the ground in the area of the motorcade at the time of the assassination. Ellis said he rode on a motorcycle alongside the first car in the motorcade, approximately 100 to 125 feet in front of the car carrying President Kennedy.(351) Ellis said that just as he started down the hill of Elm Street, he looked back toward President Kennedy's car and saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb.(352) Ellis thought it was a fragment grenade.

In a sheriff's department notarized statement dated November 22, 19963, Royce Skelton stated that he also saw a bullet hit the [*PAGE 21 FOLLOWS*] pavement in the left or middle lane, to the rear of the President's car.

We saw the motorcade come around the corner and I heard something which I thought was fireworks. I saw something hit the pavement at the left rear of the car, then the car got in the right hand lane and I heard two more shots. I heard a woman said "Oh no" or something and grab a man inside the car. I then heard another shot and saw the bullet hit the pavement. The pavement was knocked to the south away from the car.

< END. >”

So now we have a “conspiracy” of strangers all telling the same story. A policeman even becomes involved. I wonder what magic Tague weaved on him to testify to a LIE! I mean why would Ellis LIE about seeing a something hit the pavement? Why would Skelton concur? And why would there be evidence of a bullet hole in that exact spot? Because that clearly puts Tague in the middle of this “hysterical conspiracy” because he actually shoots himself in the cheek to back up his story! And notice Connally is even in on this “conspiracy” because he says that IN HIS TESTIMONY THAT " THE FIRST SHOT DID NOT HIT ME." Yes, Connally is just another hysterical fruitcake. Is he perhaps performing some sort of parody by running around screaming like a little Canadian friend?

And look who else is in on this conspiracy! The House Select Committee! What a bunch of weenies! For they conclude that:

SOME OF THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS CONCLUSIONS.

< HSCA > (1979)
· The Warren Commission apparently had looked for evidence of conspiratorial association. Finding none on the face of the associations it investigated, it did not go further.

· The Warren Commission was incorrect in concluding that Oswald and Ruby had no significant associations, and its finding of no conspiracy was not reliable.

· The Warren Commission. and FBI’s investigation into the possibility of a conspiracy was seriously flawed.

· The FBI’s investigation was in all likelihood insufficient to have uncovered a conspiracy.

· The Warren Commission. failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President.

· There was a high probability that a second gunman, in fact, fried at the President.

· President Kennedy was probably killed as a result of a conspiracy.

< END. >

So truly there is a conspiracy! A conspiracy put together by Tague. Shameful! He must truly be a shaman to have seduced so many to go along with his ridiculous story.

Yes, but wait…then we have the mention of Ockham's razor. That would mean we have to choose the simplest, most logical answer as to why something occurred. So is it reasonable to conclude that ALL these people are wrong? No, not when there is physical evidence to the contrary. We have the wounding of Tague’s cheek and pictures of the bullet hole in the concrete. Is it reasonable to conclude that all these witnesses are involved in a conspiracy? No, because we have seen physical evidence that they are telling the truth. Therefore, is it logical to conclude that all these witnesses are telling the truth and that the evidence backs them up. Yes. But as to evidence of this fourth bullet. What have we here:

http://www.webcom.com/~lpease/collections/assassinations/jfk/icebulls.htm

Seems there was a back wound to the President. “Doctors” who were on the scene concluded this:

“Another wound was located near the right shoulder blade, more specifically just under the scapula and next to it. ... During the autopsy many X-rays and photographs were taken. The pathologists kept searching for the missile which entered the right shoulder, but could not locate it. ... I recall during the autopsy there was much use of metal probes trying to locate the passage of the bullet from the right shoulder entrance. I donot [sic] believe the actual passage was proven [emphasis as in the original] to have exited, at the site of the tracheotomy, i.e., by probing - due probably to deflection by bone structure. This was the reason for the whole body x-rays [sic] - in trying to ascertain if the missile was still present in the body.
...
And from Boyers handwritten notes:
...
Many X-rays were taken trying to locate the bullet which entered the president's [sic] right shoulder area.”
“Sibert said that it was his impression that Finck and Humes agreed that there was no exit wound on the bullet through the back and said he had no recollection of how far in the probe went.”

And so, the doctors probed and probed

“I recall the doctors looking for a bullet in the body and becoming frustrated during their search. They probed the wound with a finger and Dr. Finck probed it with a metal probe. The doctors concluded it only went so far and they couldn't find it.”

Note the FBI’s explanation:

“FBI agent O'Neill thought perhaps an "Ice" bullet had been used to explain the wound in the back that entered, but made no exit!”

So now we have Oswald firing ice bullets! Yes, Ockham would be proud!

But Captain Canada, keep eating that yellow snow and think it lemonade.

 

Did they also discover wich flavour made up the icebullet ? Strawberry fields forever?

 

Dear Vortexx:

I believe it was made from the same yellow snow that Captain Canada eats. Perhaps you should ask him?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Here is more information on this intriguing story of murder, mayhem, and cover-up at the highest levels.

www.jfkmurdersolved.com

Captain: Where do you get 8 seconds from...me thinks you need to look at the Zapruder film again. It isn't 8 seconds; it's under 6 seconds that those shots rang out. More Warren Commission spin on numbers you are quoting?

 

A Lot to Get Through

At last we are moving on a little bit. Even NEMESIS is apparently developing a degree a wit!

I have to admit that was quite good! Shame about the other quips, but much as I would expect. You see how lucid you can become when the medication take effect?

Nevertheless, while I am tiring of the insult-fest (which admittedly I did dive into rather whole-heartedly), at least NEMESIS was kind enough to back up his claims with some sourced information. Now we have something to work with. I would argue, by the way, that the burden of proof in this matter is with the conspiracy theorists given the 'accepted' account of the official investigations. But then with over 70% of Americans believing in a conspiracy, I guess it has become received opinion now. I shall once again stand up for truth in the face of this tyranical majority!

A lot of points there to get through - but I think I'll start with NEMESIS since he at least provided some structure and evidence. In between the ranting of course.

I'll get to the magic bullet theory and the odd Tague obsession later. For now I'll deal with the WITNESSES. By the way, why are we CAPITALISING everything? No matter...

I do not claim the witnesses are involved in any sort of conspiracy. Indeed, given the circumstances of the event, the trauma and the dificulty with correlating any witness statements at all, I don't place tremendous stock in them. I would expect different people to see and hear different things. But if you're going to claim witness statements in defence of your conspiracy claim then why not at least claim the majority of witness statements?

80.8% of witnesses claimed hearing three or fewer shots fired. A tiny 8.7% reported hearing four or more shots. Four witnesses out of 176 tabulated by the HSCA (more throrough than any other witness report) heard shots fired from more than one location. I'll even note these for you:

Hearings before the Subcommittee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy of the HSCA, House of Representatives, Vol. II, p. 122.

If we're going to believe witnesses, why not these witnesses?

Actually - I've got to come back to this. Sorry to finish in mid-stride, but there's much more fun to come!

 

I think CUBA is the issue that made the mob and the CIA have a common interest, it used to be gambling paradise moneymaker for the families until Castro casted a communist shadow towards America and messed up the gambling bussiness....

Also the crusade of robert kennedy, working at the justice department, against the mobsters was something that could have triggered a violent response.

But laying all the responsibillity with the mobsters is too easy because they are outside the law anyway, no somebody high up in the CIA and or the government must have been assisting....

 

Dear Captain Canada:

And how was your yellow snow cone today? Yummy? Good!

I see you have bespoilt the forum with yet another bowel movement. I thought before you worked on what would imagine to be a rebuttal, we should straighten out this statistical data issue. I also will note that it is a little late to be complaining about personal insults. You’ve done nothing else, but bash people. How kind of you to at least admit that truth. It’s a start anyways.

And as for thinking me a man, is this a compliment? I would think anyone who was arrogant enough to speak for Plato would know that Nemesis was all woman. I will forgive you this point as many, many people have assumed I am a man because of the way I write. I don't know why and it is yet another mystery for me to solve.

Now about these statistics, how were these figures tabulated? The way statistics usually are as in actually relying upon factual information, or fanciful musings as in making up things as you go. For we come to the example of my obsession, Mr. Tague. For if you notice in my previous post, he was reported by the FBI to say this:

FBI REPORT: December 14, 1963

“He did not see the shots take effect and stated he could not furnish any information as to where the shots actually came from.”

When he actually said:

DEPOSITION: March 23, 1964

“Mr. TAGUE. I thought they were coming from my left. [7H556]

Mr. TAGUE. I believe they [shots] came from up in here [knoll]. [7H557]
Mr. LIEBELER. Back in the area "C"? [CE354]
Mr. TAGUE. Right.

INTERVIEW, Mark Lane: March 1966. The film Rush To Judgment

LANE. At the time you first heard the shots what was your impression as to the origin of the shots?
TAGUE. My first impression was that they had come from the left of me.
LANE. Would you indicate on the picture where that would be?
TAGUE. Up in this area here towards the hill.
LANE. Where in relation to that wooden fence?
TAGUE. Somewhere towards the wooden fence.”

So how would his testimony have been entered if say one were trying to determine how many people thought the shots came from the grassy knoll? Would Mr. Tague have been entered as not having any information or rightfully entered as in believing the shots came from that direction? You see the problem here? You do see the problem, don’t you? I mean you are so lackluster in the intellectual department, I do wonder. Even caps used for emphasis seem to throw you off. One can only imagine what would happen if italics were thrown in the mix. You might well run screaming into the street about being attacked by slanted forms of unknown origin.

So please plow through all the original witness testimony and see what the eyewitnesses actually said. Then compile your statistics based on this and NOT (Caps! Just wanted to make sure you were awake. I don’t know what kind of test I could use to determine if you are lucid. You’ve failed all the ones used thus far) the testimony that was misstated. In terms of the HSCA, I’ve already stated what their conclusions were in regards to a conspiracy. So I will ask you the same type of question you are asking me. Why would the HSCA be believed in one respect and not the other? And further, why rely on any statistical data when you can listen with your own ears and determine for yourself how many shots were fired?

One more thing before you become engrossed in writing that juggernaut, please explain the bullet wound in Kennedy’s back. You know the one that the doctors documented. This would mean there had to have been another shot fired if even one from an ice gun. Unless, of course, you think the doctors had formed their own conspiracy. Because if what they documented is correct, that would leave the magic bullet one more task. That would be to swing around and hit Kennedy in the back. I tell you that bullet surely did get around. Also why was the bullet not there? They all agreed there was no exit wound. I know, I know, the ice melted. Perhaps it was Spumoni?

The conspiracy grows! It now includes earwigs from Canada!



NEMESIS

 

misleading data

everyone in the grassy knoll area and the open quad area south of the grassy knoll (on the south side of Elm street) heard shots come from the grassy knoll by the picket fence. It is apparent that this is the case in the Z-film and the Nix film where one can see a bunch of people, including police officers, go running up there to catch the shooter, as well as from the interviews with witnesses. Many more than the 4 Capt. Canada professes. Again, another example of selection and elimination of data, as well as reporting incorrect data, with the goal to mislead the reader.

 

Well, I am pleased at least ONE person in this world person takes the role as naysayer, stating that Oswald did it all by himself, otherwise we wouldn't have much of a debate.

The involvement and the motivation of the mob seems clear enough, but the most interesting question remains WHO on government level were coresponsible for this action? You know my idea on this, let's hear yours....