By this I mean, where do you end and everything else begin? Where is the boundry? At your skin? That doesn't seem to be a boundry at all, it is extremely porous. What is the difference between external and internal?
i am everywhere belonging nowhere and yet so lost in the here and the now wondering; should i and i shall
There can't be a boundary cause if there were a boundary then we would experiance nothingness. So how far can you imagine? There is no difference to us between the external and internal, it's all perceptions, everything we can experiance have been made by the brain (allthough using information of the "outside"). We only experiance the internal reflection of the external. No one knows where we are, we can only say where our physical body is, we don't know where the mind is that the brain reports back to. Sure we experiance the place we are at, as if we were there, but there is no way of telling where we actually are, since every perception is sent to us. In a way it's like putting on Virtual Reality glasses (which I've never tried, but would want to Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!). We can experiance another world, but we are not there.
what a question. . . right now i'm in a body. . or so my brain wants to tell me. yet i know that i run so much deeper than this body. . . the atoms that make up my body have been passed along from person to person for as long as humans have been on this planet, and most likely before that as well. as a living organism, i am an expression of consciousness. . . so i guess the question becomes where does consciousness begin and where does it end?
Or where does consciousness begin and physical start? Everything we can experiance are mental, we don't know anything about the physical, cause that has allways been interpreted by the mental. You've actually never experianced anything outside the brain. Your whole idea of the world is formed inside the brain, the whole idea of you and your place in that world is inside the brain. There is a "outside" though, but to get there would be a neverending journey, since in the mental sense, you are at no place, or at the same place all the time, it's the relative motion of the surroundings that makes it seem you are moving. The world is fed to you by your senses, you don't go through the world, the world goes through you.
Cypurium wrote: "You've actually never experianced anything outside the brain. Your whole idea of the world is formed inside the brain" My word! How do you know this? I could ask how you know any of the things you said, but you do not know me, and would probably think I was being a butt. Would you mind telling me how you know that we have never experienced anything outside the brain? In all due respect, that philosophy sounds really awful. Just to clarify, Cypurium, I believe that I was before I was ever in my mother's womb, and that after I leave this body (and brain). . . I will continue. I have lived on this earth for some time now, and have never lost sight of this belief. It seems that I have know this since I was a little girl, and no one has convinced me otherwise. It is contrary to the prevailing Christian belief, I know, and I do not mean to offend, but I like hearing what others think. Of course, I cannot prove the belief I just shared, but I do know what I believe and why I believe it. To justify, or prove it, is not my thing, nor would I ask you to prove your beliefs. I am simply asking how come you are so certain, because you seemed to present it as fact, right? Or, am I wrong? So, unless you were commenting 'tongue in cheek' I would like to know why you believe that we are simply globs of protoplasm stuck in something like a movie theatre. And, please do not tell me that you read it somewhere, or that you heard it from a college professor, preacher, or whatever. Whether you did or not, you must have your own reasons for believing it, and surely for seemingly "knowing" it, and your reasons are what interests me. ~Thanks, PMT
Ok, it may sound awful but it really isn't, I don't say that it doesn't exist a physical world, I'm just saying that we can't know anything about it (not the "physical truth") since everything has been interpreted from the perspective of the mental. Ok, I don't know how long I should go back in my explanation since I don't know what you know. First of all the image we see is made in the brain (not in it's actual form, but in patterns of some sort), the patterns are then recognized into the image that we see. So the image that we see is a illusion based on the physical reality. Colors only exist in the mental world, sounds too, every feeling, every experiance that we've ever had. Why I know this? Because everything is just a interpretation of what really exists and we can't know the whole truth from our perspective (unless we get a insight from something that goes beyond our understanding). Colors for example are simply different wavelengths of light, but we don't know what a wave is, we only know that the wave affects things to behave in a certain way. Sounds are pressure in air, even what we touch is simply the forcefield that holds the atoms together (and apart). We have never even touched the physical (it may be that you would go right through it if it weren't for the forcefield). The picture you see has to be "painted" onto something, and it either has to be larger than your brain, or you have to be smaller than the picture. Think about it for a while, there aren't any "dumb" or illogical answers in here. This is my belief, it's not something that I know 100%, the reason I state it as fact is because they are so obvious (to me). In the end any "knowledge" is a belief.
TO: Cyperium Thank you. You sound like a reasonable person. I know it can be harder than one would think to convey a message that is taken as intended. I was simply not sure what you meant, and I see nothing in your response with which to take issue. I am familiar with everything you said, and find science fascinating, -always have. We (meaning scientists who represent ours and other countries) are still off and on with some things, (like "strings"), and in the past "scientific " beliefs have gone from 'fact' to 'dispute' to "now we know," again and again over the years. Nonetheless, this does not take away from my regard for scientists; and yet, it does confirm again and again that we are not all-knowing . . . the search for truth has not ended. Thank you for your good response. PMT
You're welcome, I'd like to talk to you more about these issues, so where can we start? Do you believe in a higher being, God? I believe in God, but I've lost faith alot of times, so I understand those who doesn't believe, but when I really think about it the arguments for Him not to exist are often empty. But instead of explaining what we don't know we can come pretty far by explaining what we do know. One of the things I came to realize was that I know that one part of the universe is actually conscious about itself (me, can't tell if you are though Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!). If what's required for that consciousness is processes, patterns, or maybe harmony, then whatever is in the brain is everywhere. And I thought, that at some level everything may be conscious. Makes the people that have experianced the feeling of being "one with the universe" seem less crazy Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!.
Are you really concious of yourself? Or just some sensations? Are you concious of your gall bladder at this moment? or your spleen? or your lymph nodes? Perhaps conciousness=sensation/nerve impulses, which are always one step behind the thing that caused them, and also highly filtered. I think we have a distorted sense of self because of where our nerves end, because of our brain/ learned cultural filters and there is no real boundry between self and other. Thus we are one with everything at a very real physical level. Conciousness and self are delusions. The concept of God is our distorted sense of self as well as our patriarchal cultural values projected on the whole universe.
Cyperium: It is extremely difficult to prove a negative, but people keep trying. Since I was a little child, I have known that God is; so, I have no amazing story to tell about conversion. In fact, I have very few experiences to share that would be amazing to those who do not believe, so for the most part I keep them to myself. I cannot say that I have ever lost faith in God. It has just not happened. I am ever so cognizant of the possibility of spoiling one’s security, so to speak, and because of this, I tend to leave one’s beliefs between them and God, unless they ask, and even then, I am cautious. Perhaps where folks are in their philosophies--no matter how strange these may seem to me--is where they need to be to get where they need to go. This leaves me very few with whom I can share my thoughts. Quite a contrast to my social interaction in earlier years, (Church & Bible School). Even though I was a rebel then, I allowed myself no conclusions to my controversial questions, even temporary ones, because people scowled when I questioned things, and I did not wish to be disrespectful. Years of reasoning and soul searching have brought me to where I am, and I can tell you, the more I learn the more I am convinced that I know very little. This is the naked truth! The dilemma, -if there is a dilemma- is this: in philosophy, I seem to be a bit of a misfit, and this can be a little difficult at times. Nonetheless, I can truthfully say that I gave my full attention to concepts held by various denominations, but some of them are simply not conceivable by this wandering seeker of wisdom and truth. To be enlightened thrills me, because this is my hunger, -to learn. As I have stated previously History and Philosophy hold my interest. However, I do not care much for modern writers. Will Durant happens to be about the most recent author that gets me going, (of which I am aware). As for eternity: My body will die, for sure. Truth is, I think we make too much of hanging on to life. My spirit will not die, because, as I belong to God, it is God’s spirit, therefore, without a doubt, I am part of the universe. I say, why would we not be? If the earth is, and the planets are, and so forth, why would we not be? We are made of the same material. That which we cannot see exists and it is called energy, so why are folks so afraid to believe in something they cannot see, especially when they so often declare that much of what we do we see is an illusion? Yet, many who believe, and claim to take the Bible literally seem to take only their favorite, or most comfortable, parts literally. I know there are some errors in the Bible, and there are parts I do not take literally, but I want to share this: Spinoza, (God bless that dear -often misunderstood soul), made one of the most profound statements I have ever read or heard. He wrote that if -every Bible- on earth were burned or otherwise destroyed, we would still have the Word of God. That is quite a statement! What faith. He said this in conjunction with other comments regarding people (believers) who are downright (my words) superstitious about their physical Word of God, (Bible), insomuch as they fear having anyone dispute or find even obvious chronological errors in their holy (hand-chosen) collection of books called the Holy Bible. He says the Bible itself is simply paper and ink, written and put together by man, and is holy only to those who revere it, but not of itself. He also says that it is reasonable that anything involving man would be flawed, but the errors are not of such that should destroy, threaten, or hinder faith. It is still a wonderful book for believers, and contains words of the prophets and apostles, including those who walked on this earth with Jesus Christ. Whereas Spinoza never attested to the divinity of Christ insomuch as he could not conceive such a resurrection, he did state that Jesus was the only man who had the mind of God, and communicated with God mind to mind, rather than by visions, dreams and so forth. (Again, those are my words, and not direct quotes.) I am not sure that I know any Christians who would feel comfortable admitting that the Bible is simply paper and ink, or that would say, “If all the Bibles were destroyed we would still have the Word of God.” In fact, I was a bit stunned myself when I first read it. …I thought, “Wow, he’is so right,” then it became clear to me that the man had amazing faith. All these words I have typed to give you some insight into my thoughts, convictions, and even my favorite things. Spirituality, to me, is a continuous fact. I need go nowhere to find God. His spirit is with me and in me. How do I know? Because, I am breathing, -a fact, and because I feel His Spirit, -a conviction. When I die, I will be with Him. I fear no hell, and do not share some of the ideas about angels and heaven apparently supported by various groups. Do I believe anyone will be in everlasting torment? To believe such a thing seems totally unreasonable to me, and I have been –for some time- unable to accept such a doctrine. Of course, Cyperium, I am a work still in process. We know, for sure, that whether one believes or disbelieves does not make it so. The only thing I know for sure is that God is; . . . however, I believe many things. PMT
I remember when I was a child, I had so much faith, hope and love, I felt really in touch with God. One time I said to myself that I wouldn't swear anymore, and I stopped swearing for a year (that's a long time when allmost everyone around you swears), I said to myself that whatever I promise myself or others I would keep that promise. Then I had to swear one time (because I was reading loud to the class in the school) and after that I swore now and then, but allways with a great feeling of loss each time. I kept my faith in God, for several years until I was about 13-14 then I stopped believing in Him, I thought to myself that I would try to live a life more normal to the other persons that I knew (allthough I allways had the possibility and I allways defended the faith), I felt relieved that I could do so much more now that I didn't have faith in God and I didn't have to cope with everyone's disbelief. But slowly I began to believe again after trying to combine God and science since both are paths to the truth, I started to see more and more possibilities that God might exist after all. Me too, I'm very afraid of saying something that would lead someone in to the wrong track cause I know how easy it can be. I believe that you should share your thoughts (but I understand what you mean, I've had the same problem myself), cause we can't know what would happen if we didn't say something or what would happen if we say something. It might just be so arranged that what you say might be the next piece in his reasoning. I don't know but it seems right, we do what we are supposed to do in some way whatever we do. I believe though that there are ways we can do things so that we do things that are better than they could have been. I believe that as long as you have a good meaning by what you say, no one is going to get harmed by what you say. But that is, if they understand what you meant. That is much harder, somehow you've got to find a way to get your meaning through, I believe that we all have to find our own way to achieve that. I agree with you, but the problem for me is that I don't know exactly what happens afterwards and the difficulty of getting to where I belong. Life, I believe, must be for a reason, and I have a hunch that it might prepare us for death and what we will experiance there. I don't know why, it seems like they are saying something but aren't following what they say, or they fail to fully see the possibilities of what they are saying. I guess that everyone have their own view of how they should interpret the bible, I mostly interpret the bible by picturing what it say, and try to see if the picture wakes any memories so that I know what it means. The bible is a good guidence if you use it with care. I don't think the bible is completly necessary, so I think Spinoza was right when saying that, however I still think that it's very good that the bible exists, so that the people who don't believe can see that there are options. I believe the bible is a great book, gives inspirations and advice that holds to this day. I also like the books on wisdom. Especially Jesus Syraks wisdom that's in the Bible 2000 (at least in Sweden). I think so too. I appreciate it, it's allways nice to see someone else who really take belief seriously. I also think God is, I mean, why don't some people see the possibility even? They judge God together with Santa Claus. It's the idea that matters, and what that idea leads to, cause we can't know, we haven't seen Him, but we can allways believe.
CYPERIUM……………………………. Hello! Re: Swearing. ~You said that at one time you decided not to swear anymore. Whereas this is a nice goal, I cannot say that I do not swear. When I am really angry, I say very little, very quietly. I mostly swear when I hurt myself. Is that childish, or what. Not every time, but often enough that I am well aware of it. I will also confess to sometimes griping at other drivers. Not sure how feels, but there are things that bothers my spirit more than swearing. Hearing someone swear all the time is tiring, and sounds disruptive to better thoughts. I have known some very dear people who swear a lot. It seems I never get entirely accustomed to it; so much of it is hostile. This is the kind of swearing that bothers me the most, and in truth, I suppose if they were yelling without swearing, it would still tend to make me uncomfortable. I seems to me that sometimes making an effort to read, talk, think, good things is more productive than keeping the not-so-good things in mind, and trying not to do them. What do you think? You said that you believed I should share my thoughts. I agree, but when I commenced Bible School, I was only fourteen, (the next youngest was seventeen). This was in Kansas City, MO. We lived in California at the time, and my stepfather spoofed them, knowingly or unknowingly, I am not sure, but I was actually too young. It had been a long trip on the bus, and for whatever reason, they took me anyway. I was a serious youngster. It was a two-year course and a good thing for me at the time. I will ever be grateful for those two terms. This was a coed boarding school, (if you can believe that), and we had so much fun. The guys were on the third floor and we girls/women were on the second. Never the twain met. Mostly, we were all enthusiastic and dedicated; the ones who were not so intense seemingly respected those of us who were. Of course, one reason it was so fun for me, was that I was so young. I felt really grown up being with those older kids, and young adults. You said something about not knowing what happens “afterward.” Who does, really? Let me tell you: Once, when I had lunch with a friend, she shared with me that she had changed denominations, and told me which one she had joined. She said to me, “The soul dies, and only our memories go to God.” I nodded affirmatively, and said, “I respect your sincerity, but I do not believe that.” She asked, “What do you believe happens? What I told her was similar to what I told you. I said that I believed I was before I was born and would be after I died. She asked what made me believe that. I explained that I had always believed it, but had no proof, nor did I pretend to have all the answers, and then I added: “Those who do claim to have all the answers, scare me! She seemed to take me very seriously. I was serious! As for your next comment, about non-believers, where you said: ”….they fail to fully see what they are seeing.” I think I get what you mean. With folks who have an almost entirely different mind-set, I prefer to speak in person. In person, I can watch for signs of puzzlement, boredom, or other emotions, and back up if I need to. When you write, it is down and done. (With most things, however, I prefer to write.) You said that you did not think the Bible was completely necessary. I have to agree in the truest sense, but then perhaps I should ask, necessary for what? As for me, I would not want to be without it, because it is precious to me. I am familiar and attached to it, I suppose. I have studied the Bible since I was a child. I think my favorites are: The book of Acts (author, Luke), situated between the gospels and the Pauline epistles. Because Acts is in essence a story, it is easy to read. The stoning of Stephen gets me every time! I also like the thirteen books attributed to Apostle Paul, and the beautifully written, book of Hebrews. When I was fourteen, I memorized the first chapter of Hebrews –King James Version. That was a task. Can't quite do it now. Whether one is a Christian or no! the way the book of Hebrews commences (K. J.) is fantastic literature. It flows like honey. It is nice to have the other translations, because some of that first chapter is hard to understand (for some), but the others are not nearly as beautiful. I love literature, and might have King James to thank for my being comfortable reading that old English script. His boys made some errors and possibly took some liberties in interpretation, but I can almost forgive them, because it is really pretty in places. The fifty-hird chapter of Isaiah is a book that flows too. I read Psalms some, and like them, but they do not touch me like Isaiah, Acts and Paul’s epistles. I am sure that I have others too that I really like to read and/or study, but those are just great, in my humble opinion. The most ambiguous of Paul’s writings is probably in Romans, or maybe not. I’m getting tired. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You mentioned a Swedish Bible. Are you Swedish? -and do you know anything about Finland? (No, I am not Finnish, but I correspond there, and have a CD that I cherish, (by a couple of Finns). Finland is a very interesting country, and very pretty, it seems, with its sixty thousand lakes. I am also co-authoring a book with someone who grew up there. As for Santa: I have never believed in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny or the tooth Fairy. Do you suppose this is why I never grouped Jesus or God with them? Off the subject, do you like any of Lord Byron’s poems? Good night, Cyperium
Hi again! I believe that if you don't mean anything wrong with swearing it's ok, as I think swearing is just a way to express anger or pain (in lack of better words to explain the sensation). I think, as you, that swearing is disruptive to better thoughts, why not do something creative instead? You can mix alot of words, like Jabalahoolihey! when you hurt yourself! Nah, I guess that would seem strange though...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I agree with you, I've had a problem with that before, I was too afraid of doing something wrong, I still have the problem to some extent, but I've made alot of effort to find solutions and I think I've come a long way. It has to do with living in "now" and not thinking too much about the past and the troubles that may arise in the future (as in the bible, "tomorrow has enough of it's own troubles" (probably not that good translation from Swedish to English)). It's nice to have good memories of the past, they keep the light going. This is also good as a life-strategy; constantly make good memories so that you can enjoy thinking back on them later. When I was young me and my father (and later on my mother too) lived in a christian mansion with alot of people, me and my friends loved to explore the mansion cause it was so big. There was a big room which served as a passageway between two rooms, the room was very large and we used to turned off the lightswitch and walk through the dark to the other room because it was so frightning and exciting Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. When I was there, I really felt in touch with God, I guess it had to do with the christian atmosphere and the freedom to explore...and maybe the freedom to simply be free. I don't believe that either, but I guess it's a good belief since our lives then becomes like a guift to God, and that might make some of us live a better life. I don't know if they scare me but I usually get irritated when people think they know everything. Cause no one alive knows everything, that I know. I like to leave possibilities open when they haven't been proven for or against. People who think they know everything only seem to see what's right in front of them. Sure they can be quick thinkers (they only have to see one possibility) but then they can't use the other possibilities as a tool to discover the truth about something. Also I believe that in the end even things that contradict themselves should be able to join (in some ultimate truth). I feel more comfortable with writing, but that's just because I can think about the answer a while before answering. But in a way, it's more fun and interesting to talk in person and more challanging to get your meaning through. But that's something I have to get better at. Necessary because those who believe can find solutions to problems they might be having, also necessary because those who don't believe can sit back for a while and read the bible and see what all the fuzz is about. But it is, as you said, not completly necessary cause we will allways have a intuitive feeling of something greater than us. I'm pretty good at remembering the bible when I have to deal with situations that requires that kind of knowledge. But I can't remember that much at a time. I like the New Testament most, because it deals more with everyday situations and gives so much advice and insight. Can be fun to read the Old Testament once in a while though. The original bible in swedish also had a very old language-style, and some of the words are almost completly forgotten today so it can be hard to read it. But Bible 2000 has plain swedish so it's more fun to read. It's been a while since a read the books you mentioned so I don't remember them that well. Yep, I'm Swedish, I know three people from Finland but I don't know that much about Finland, only that they like to have a sauna often (and sometimes in connection with bathing outside when winter, not that common in Sweden). Maybe, I wouldn't find it totally unreasonable, when I was young I felt really disappointed when I realized that the world wasn't as magical as I thought it was and I almost dropped every belief, but then I thought that the world must be magical in some way so I kept the possibility alive. I didn't believe in Santa either, cause someone was allways away when Santa arrived so it was kinda obvious. I don't remember if I believed in the tooth-fairy though... I don't read poems that much and I've never heard of him so I don't know if I like them, do you have a link to any of his poems? Nice talking to you P. M. Thorne!
Re: 11/19/03 + Lord Byron websites Cyperium; Greetings! It has been a while since I received your last message, and I apologize for the many days it has taken me to get back with you. However, because of the nature of our exchanges, I prefer to write when I have sufficient time to think through what you wrote for a second time, and to give my utmost attention to my response. As I do not know you, I speculate that you deserve my being deliberate as to what I write. It is so easy to be misunderstood in this medium. I think I will take the last first. YOU SAID: "I don't read poems that much and I've never heard of him so I don't know if I like them, do you have a link to any of his poems?" Here is the first verse of “I Would I Were a Careless Child” “I would I were a careless child, Still dwelling in my Highland cave, Or roaming through the dusky wild, Or bounding o'er the dark blue wave; The cumbrous pomp of Saxon pride Accords not with the freeborn soul, Which loves the mountain's craggy side, And seeks the rocks where billows roll.” Another phrase from subsequent verses: “Few are my years, and yet I feel The world was ne'er designed for me:" [I can relate.] One more phrase: “Though pleasure stirs the maddening soul, The heart - the heart - is lonely still.” .......................................................................... God rest his soul. I do have a site for this poem, and provide this so that you may view the poem in full, if you so desire. www.englishhistory.net/byron/poems/child.html ................................................................................ My all-time, very favorite poem of Lord Byron's (or anyone’s) is, “The Prisoner of Chillon.” Following is the website, so that you may appreciate the length, the contents, the sensitivity of this prolific writer, cut off in his prime. faculty.southwest.tn.edu/bmcclure/links2/chillonprisoner.htm another site is: www.bartleby.com/41/479.html There is also on something on "The Sonnet of Chillon," and information related to the aforementioned poem. This website is: www.geocities.com/~bblair/chillon.htm … Sonnet on Chillon ......................... The Prisoner of Chillon, is a much more difficult poem to read than the first I mentioned. However, it is one of the most insightful and heart wrenching I have ever read. I cannot begin to tell you how many times I have read this poem. Byron, to my knowledge was never in prison, so my pain is not for him, but for those who lived in a time when man’s inhumanity to man was such that we today find it almost impossible to comprehend. ........................................................................... I am supposing that feelings aroused by this poem, and by Will Durant’s commentaries on Schopenhauer/19th Century in his book, “The Story of Philosophy,” and Spinoza’s plight . . . that led me to write a poem myself, called “Their Bones Lie Quiet Now.” Here is a short excerpt from the prologue to that poem, taken verbatim from the book: “It is, after all, their conclusions we scrutinize, not their motives! It is their words they left us, not their lifestyles.” I wrote these words after--and to go with-- other observations, in defense actually, of who/why they were, giving what they left for us the preeminence. From the poem itself, here is the final verse~ (speaking of their writings): “We guard these now for all to see what can be learned of their history. Yet, few of them could ere have guessed, (that long after they were laid to rest), their words would live to warmly attend hungry searchings of truths new friends.” That particular verse is more to the philosophers, but the inspiration for the poem was born in my empathy for those with a hunger to express themselves. Incidentally, I do not call myself a poet, but a writer that sometimes writes something resembling poetry. I will address the rest of your last message in another time (soon, I promise), because I have an engagement that I must keep. I hope there is something in this to opens yet another window of enjoyment for you. FYI: Lord Byron had a clubfoot, a rather j"poop" of a father, so far as I can determine, and his mother was deficient in motherly skills. Byron was well off, and yet despised much of what went with it, preferring nature, and it surely seems, a heart willing to give some contribution to the agony of humanity. Until later, PMT
Here is part 2 of my response... Cyperium: [Here is part 2 ...] Quoting you: “One of the things I came to realize was that I know that one part of the universe is actually conscious about itself (me, can't tell if you are though ). If what's required for that consciousness is processes, patterns, or maybe harmony, then whatever is in the brain is everywhere. And I thought, that at some level everything may be conscious. Makes the people that have experianced the feeling of being "one with the universe" seem less crazy .” I SAY: The above is from a previous message from you, and I would like to comment, especially about “whatever is in the brain is everywhere.” Even though this was interesting to me at the time, it is not always easy to keep track of things said, that Iwish to add my thoughts. Therefore, although I let it pass without comment, I will now attempt to share my thoughts on the matter. If we truly accept your comment that -what we carry with us- is everywhere, then it stands to reason that whatever opinions, reverence, hope, prejudices, priorities, etc. that we hold must needs be monitored by the Spirit of God that is within us, and on an ongoing basis. There is also the concept that what we do not feed dies, and why could this not be true? If it were true of the universe, then it would not be illogical to say that it is true of thoughts. I have no problem believing that our thoughts can affect things outside of us. We may walk into an empty house and feel either good, nothing in particular, or uneasy. I would guess that we possibly recognize feelings through a kind of sixth sense, with which we are familiar, (good or not so good). We also project feelings and leave feelings behind. Remember: “People may forget what we say, and they may even forget what we do, but they never forget how we made them feel.” Though this may be a bit of a stretch, mostly it is true. YOU SAID: “It has to do with living in "the now" and not thinking too much about the past and the troubles that may arise in the future.” Of course, we should not borrow problems, and I believe I have a good grasp of the passage to which you refer; notwithstanding, I must object to the trendy message the world is propagating in this time, on “living in the now.” They have taken a reasonable admonition to a most selfish and “live today; die tomorrow” foo foo concept. I am concerned about ramifications in the aftermath of such a hallow message, a message which discourages -by its very nature, our preparing ourselves as God would have us do. “Go with the flow,” is another good message, in itself, but when it commences to smell like, “Stand for nothing, just let things happen, and do not get too serious about anything,” then we have deterioration in the workings. One thing for which a person should responsible is a well-exercised spirit of discernment. If he has none, then he had best work on it, because this is what we use as our level, our compass, and our guide. So how can discernment be our guide? Discernment is primarily intuition, or knowledge with which we are so familiar that we own it. That is to say, it has become a part of us that we use almost without thinking. Discernment has connotation of deliberate use of our intuition, which includes strongly connecting with all the wisdom that is within us, and praying that we use it well. (Do not take that last statement literally, unless it fits, because some things cannot be explained in a flash.) Here is something good related to this subject that popped into my brain. Spinoza advocates that passion is a good motivator, but not a good guide; therefore, though passion may be our accelerator, (and it can truly get us going), wisdom must be what steers us. (Mostly my words, of course.) Every time we hear a cute little saying that sounds just so witty and wise, we must become acquainted with its relatives! When flowery words tickle our ears, we must reason, we must check our heart (intuition), and we must use discernment! This goes with the Biblical phrase: “Try the spirits…” We need to know if these newcomers are in harmony with the Spirit (our purpose) of God within us. Once we get away from that thing that stirred us so, or that initially seemed so wise, so blessed, or so all-knowing, and once we are out of that environment that impressed us so, or that made us feel quite good about how we compare with others, we must reflect with the tools I mentioned. To always be on guard, lest we be deceived is a responsibility that can serve us well. Therefore, God forbid that we carelessly swallow whatever we hear or read, and do so because it is easier than thinking so much, or because it has the “benefit” of placing responsibility for any unsatisfactory outcomes on the person(s) that intellectually or emotionally deceived us. ……………………………. I enjoyed your little story about the mansion. It is truly wonderful to have fellowship with enthusiastic believers, but now I have to ask, “Where are they?” Not sure if I told you this, but one Sunday evening after church was out, , as a group of us youngsters headed for hamburgers and milkshakes I joyfully commented once too often (I suppose), on how good the meeting had been. Finally, the driven turned around and sarcastically smiled, “Church is over,” he said. Indeed it was. What a shame, because, temporarily, my enthusiasm for all that we can be was over as well. I gave so much thought to that, because it seemed a puzzle to me why they even bothered going to church. YOU SAID: “. . . .guess it's a good belief since our lives then becomes like a guift to God, and that might make some of us live a better life.” Not sure where to start here, but I have to disagree. Here is one line of thinking that I do not share with much of Christendom. It seems to me that this, “Do something to make God happy, comes mostly from the way Christians tend to take the Old Testament. Let me give you a quote from a scholar of Jewish History and of the Jewish religion, [Spinoza]: “. . . .the Jews never make any mention or account of secondary, or particular causes, but in a spirit of religion, piety, and what is commonly called godliness, refer all things directly to the Deity. For instance, if they make money by a transaction, they say God gave it to them; if they desire anything, they say God had disposed their hearts towards it; if they think anything, they say, God told them. Hence we must not suppose that everything is prophecy or revelation which is described in Scripture as told by God to anyone, but only such things as are expressly announced as prophecy or revelation, or are plainly pointed to as such by the context.” Whereas the above may seem to have little to do with our subject here, it does give us cause to think about how we perceive the Old Testament. The reason Spinoza was treated so outrageously, insomuch as he was excommunicated, cursed and abused, was for the most part, …according to history, because the Jews in Holland, having been well treated and given refuge by the Christians there. It is then understandable that they feared that Spinoza’s words would alienate the Christians, provoke them, and in so doing would leave the Jewish community on shaky grounds. The Jews, as I understand it, were not really so offended with him as the Christians. Spinoza, after all, was at that time dealing primarily with issues to do with the Jews. I believe it was well after his excommunication that he studied Greek and the New Testament. Many times the religious leaders, just as political leaders, tell people exactly what they think they need to here that will keep their subjects in line. When a people believe that God will do damage to them if they disobey Him, they will, by all common sense, want God to be happy with them. God is my source. I believe that the closer I get to my fellowman, the closer I get to God. Conversely, I believe that the closer I get to God, the closer I get to my fellow man. I am little concerned about my conduct, except that it not be damaging. I am even less concerned about my doubts and mistakes as related to God’s judgment. I am flawed. God knew that, knows that, and is not surprised at that! I do good things, because it makes me feel good, and/or makes others feel good. I give, I love and I serve for the same reasons. I believe that God commands that we do what we do, because these are the things that will work for us, . . . work for us in performing our purpose on this earth. All has been done, and we need do is accept the results. We do not literally find God. This is a twister, because God is. Further, He is not with us only when we do good. Why would He be, He knows that it is temporary, and that soon we will be found lacking. He knows our battles, our struggles, because He is God. Why then would we ever try to fool Him, or make Him happy? It is not even my goal to be happy. Happiness is also something one cannot find, rather it comes with doing, with knowing, and when joy fills our soul. My goal . . . is to learn, to progress, to rid myself of destructive behavior, or other things that do not serve me well. My aim is to be kind, to be wise, to always be able to bend when strong winds come. So, I say, if my duty were to make God happy, I would not know where to start. But, if it is to uphold my fellowman, to lift those that sorrow, to put love above strife, to ease a load, to lay aside those things that would hinder me in following my good senses, then I have some idea how this journey is to be accomplished. …………………………………….. YOU SAID: “Sure they (speaking of religious experts) can be quick thinkers, they only have to see one possibility,” and then you comment to the effect that their --but, I know--attitude can prevent them from going any further toward truth. That is really good. I compliment you on such good reasoning. As for the Bible “not being necessary,” those were not my words, but in essence that is what one could possibly conclude from Spinoza’s words, which were to the effect that if all the Bibles were destroyed, we would still have the Word of God. This, to me, gives a bit of a different thought than had he said that the Bible was “not necessary.” Some believe it is, and I would not argue that to know certain things the Bible is necessary, but I also agree with the philosopher that even if the Bible ceased to exist, we would still have the Word of God. You, in commenting on the Swedish Bible, mentioned that some of the words in the old style are now forgotten. I understand what you are saying. I have to watch myself; I read so much old literature that I sometimes have to look up a word in a current dictionary to see if it is still considered a part of our language, rather than archaic. I trust this is not too cumbersome for your enjoyment. Until later. . . .PMT
