Iraq is the Arabic Word for Vietnam !

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Proud_Syrian, Nov 2, 2003.

  1. nico Banned Banned

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    Hooray for inaccurate historical parallels

    Surely you could point them out, I am intrigued. I'll be waiting.

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  3. Spyke Registered Senior Member

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    Meaning that none have been found to date, which probably means that he got rid of them in some fashion at some time between December '98 and March '03. I had no trouble with inspections continuing longer, although not indefinitely, if Iraq had allowed the inspectors full freedom, and if the inspectors had looked into every nook and cranny, been able to talk to all scientists, and not just going into factories and warehouses. I would have liked to avoid this war.
     
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  5. nico Banned Banned

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    Do you think that 3 months was enough to search Iraq? Anyways it really dosen't negate the fact that Bush said that he had proof that Iraq had WMD and it was so compelling that it would be un-deniable... do we deny this? How about Cheney's assertion that Iraq was developing nuclear weapons

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    (yet we question NK ablity) , with Iraq having 98% of her WMD infrastructure destroyed, according to the UN in 1998! I am sorry, but it completely ridiculous that the US went to war with no concrete evidence to support these "threats" I am certain that if there was a threat that was SO compelling so overt, then the French and Russians would have easily gotten on. Is this making any sense to you... because it surely dosen't to me. There was no threat, the inspectors didn't have enough time, and the American imperialistic war was just that...imperialistic. But well shouldn't dwell on the past for too long on this subject, or start a new thread. This thread is about what again...?

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  7. Stokes Pennwalt Nuke them from orbit. Registered Senior Member

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    Actually, you somewhat did this for me on page 1.
     
  8. tempusme Registered Senior Member

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    8 months into this and Iraq is already a 10 year standstill in southeast asia. i love logic.
     
  9. nico Banned Banned

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    8 months into this and Iraq is already a 10 year standstill in southeast asia. i love logic.

    No there is logic in that statement, how? The situation in the ME is much more volatile then in SE Asia. The anti-Americanism in the region is widespread, and the anger is as well. America doesn’t have a real friend in Iraq, at the very least in Vietnam the S.Vietnamese were fighting along the Americans. Here the US is "shock and awing" its way to failure. I am literally never not in a state of "shock and awe" with the US these days. The tech war of today has made the wars go MUCH faster then those of the Vietnam era. Also the media today is much more apt to pick up attacks and death, almost instantaneously. The situation in Iraq is much more volatile then Vietnam ever was, I mean who was really effected by the fall of Saigon? If Baghdad falls, you'll never hear the end of it. Also unlike in Vietnam the US can't fail in Iraq, otherwise, well 9/11's would be rampant.
     
  10. Captain Canada Stranger in Town Registered Senior Member

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    How about this:

    Iraq is not the next Vietnam but the first Iraq.

    Why do we have to put each event into a specific historical box? Probably because it makes argument easier. History requires perspective and time permits a degree of consensus. So most Americans accept that Vietnam was a mistake and a waste of human life. Therefore if those who oppose the war make this look more and more like Vietnam they will rally the consensus that it's a bad idea.

    Well I'm against the war and always have been, but I would not pretend that this conflict is anything like Vietnam. It is in the sense that the US is involved in a conflict on foreign soil - and to me that's where it ends.

    Each historical event has its own dynamic - this war in Iraq is not about a divided state or even ideology (as such). It is not in defense of an existing (if pathetic) government. It is not even a civil war (yet). Why should we blind ourselves (and I would argue that opponents of the war who make the Vietnam analogy are blind) to understanding the particulars of THIS conflict rtaher than wheeling out a previous one?

    I now see the worrying signs of the 'Vietnamisation' of opposition. They call for withdrawal - get the troops out! Well in Vietnam that was the solution - the people in that country were much happier as a unified country under communist rule. Good luck to them. There was an able administration waiting to take over and a people happy to lay down arms and call it reunification.

    It's not the same in Iraq. If the US left tomorrow they would essentially have spent $90bn creating Lebanon on a much bigger scale, bang in the middle of the world's largest source of oil. Great. They owe it to the Iraqis to pump money into the country and fix what they have broken. They owe it to them to provide security and a framework for self-detemrination - no, not democracy but self-determination. You can't just pick up your ball when the opposition starts scoring and not play anymore.

    All those sudden opponents of the war were pretty damned quiet in the build-up and it sickens me. I am now finding myself siding with the pro-war lobby because I think they are the only ones who understand the repsonsibility the fickle US people have to Iraq. It is going to cost a fortune and you should expect to be taxed to pay in cash, and possibly drafted to pay in blood. It's what you asked for - so stick with it.

    I hold the US people responsible for this fiasco and demand that they stay the course and finish the job in a way that grants the Iraqi people a future of their own choosing. Don't tell me 80% of America were lied to - they just didn't pay attnetion. They believed what made them happy in the short-term. Now it's not so exciting anymore. But it is the repsonsibility of the US people - not the media, not the politicians but the people. They say they were lied to - we all heard the same lies didn't we? I wasn't convinced, so why should they be?

    The US people try to absolve responsibility at all times - their government is not them. Well it is. And maybe when they realise that they will see why terrorists attack the 'innocent' population which puts up the money for weapons and then votes for a man willing to use them. You don't have to pull the trigger to bear responsibility for death.

    Well that was a bit of a rant wasn't it?
     
  11. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    What I think

    I believe that the US, having learned the Vietnam lesson, will attempt to replace their own forces with Iraqi or "Coalition" forces.
    Of course this is purely a facade. They will be in control and pretending the Iraqi's and 'Coalition forces' are now fighting the "forces of evil" on their own; bleeding on behalf of American interests, as it were.
    If they cannot create a viable alternative army, to their own, then they will be in a new Vietnam with dire consequences to the American delusion. Once again.
    If they will, then they will sit back reap the oil rewards and pretend that they brought 'Democracy' to the middle-east. They will have parades and Hollywood movies will portray the American glorious victory in ‘Rambo’ terms, making US males feel so macho and females so proud.
    Democracy is an Orwellian term meaning open markets, open markets in turn means American dominated markets, since the US, in essence, does not have open markets to foreign interests. They call 'open' or 'free' any environment that they control and benefit from. To be more precise that the US elite benefits from.
    The question arises:
    Where are the American people?
    Well besides the few protesting, the rest are quietly sitting in front of TV screens, munching saturated fats and wondering who so-and-so is fucking this week or if that couple broke up or if the Red Wings have a chance at winning the cup this year.
    They will be convinced that they life in freedom that their Media is free, even if liberally biased, and that their nation is a benevolent force of goodness and justice in the world.
    They will be going to school thinking they are getting educated, when all they are doing in specializing in an area of knowledge and learning what to think not how to think.
    Then one day some ‘evil’ entity will strike back at their obscene indifference and oblivious decadence and they will wonder why everyone hates them so much when they are so ‘good’ and ‘just’.
    Their government will tell them it’s because everyone is envious of their ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ and that ‘god’ is on their side, so obviously the devil is on theirs.
    Then when the shock subsides and they are talked into spilling their own blood for corporate interests and elite privileges, they will fall back into a glutton’s lethargy and an imbecile’s blind contentment.
    In between Jay Leno and Survivor they will be brainwashed by 30 minute ‘News’ shows passing out the popular line and in between sit-coms and commercials, dictating what they should want and how they should live, they will perceive the quantity of information for quality and being unable to process so much of it, being untrained in thinking as they are, they will accept the popular one or the one they hear most often from supposed, ‘reliable’ sources.
    Their own emptiness they won’t be able to explain and so they will blame themselves, plunging an already fragile psyche into depression.
    Their own stupidity they will not be aware of because if they were they wouldn’t be stupid, now would they. It’s a conundrum.
    Their undisciplined character, their absence of respect, especially for themselves, and their inability to control their instincts they will blame on others.
     
  12. nico Banned Banned

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    Captain Canada

    Very well put indeed, I have to agree with you in the sense that those pre-war hawks are silenced, and even some have slowly in the shadows moved to the anti-occupation movement. To say though that you are pro-war is a misnomer. What you are is pro-Iraq, you can't be pro-war because you did not support the causis belli of the war. Understand there is a "Vietnamization" of the conflict in Iraq, but that unto itself is a masterful play on rhetoric’s, the American ppl have shown how easily those word games dominate them. The American people are totally responsible for the attack on Iraq. There is no logic in them as you said to be tricked when me and you and others were able (pre-war) understand this was a crock of shit. Vietnam's end was a disastrous one for the US, and I don't expect much different here in Iraq. I think that calling Iraq another Vietnam is largely inaccurate and crude logic. But there are over-arching overtones we can't ignore. For instance DoD expenditures are exploding under this war, and already the US is almost up to what the Vietnam war cost the US in the 60's and 70's around $200+ billion. I wonder about the next US general election... will Dean capitalize on the war issue, or falter like McGovern. I think the nomination should be Clarke, with Dean as V.P.
     
  13. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Good thread, good posts. That's all I have to say: Oh and Al-Vietnam.

    (it's actually the Arabic word for Vietnam)

    Like Al-Gore
     

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