...don't know God if, you don't live by all the ways, His Son Jesus taught. If you say you tried that and failed. It is your failure not God's. You failed because, at some point "you" stumbled from the path, that He laid before you and just because you failed, it dosen't mean theres no God. Jesus said "I am the WAY, TRUTH and the LIFE, no man commeth to the Father but by me". When He rose to Heaven His task of love for the Father was finished. He did not forget to do something. Any variance of His example leads to hell only, not heaven. God is Holy, Just, Merciful, Graciouse, Loving, Forgiving, Vengeful, our Creator, our Deliver, our supplier, our King, our Lord,... ...but the one thing He dislikes more than anything is SIN. He tells us...this is the most vile thing against Him. If a man never comprehends this, He will never know God. This is the begining of wisdom. The begining of a relationship with Him. The begining of redemption. This is where most people fail...they can't turn away from their sin...thus, no God...through the Son. Lying is a sin, stealing is a sin, gay is a sin, killing babies is a sin, deception is a sin,etc....If it is against the nature of God, it is a sin. To achieve a clear understanding of this, one must read the Bible....but you know what?...man loves his sin and if he never gets past this...He will never know God. The out come of this...leads to harden, hateful hearts, cursing God, hate against those that try, deception and twisting of words...of those that try. Listen,...If you truely want to know if God is or isn't...at the very least...try through the Son and turn from your sin... Accept Jesus today as your personal savior, turn from your sin and pray to God to show you who He is...and He will. Until you do...you'll be bitter and hateful...like those that reply to my message. There are "unbelievers, believers/tares and Christians.....which are you? God is.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Lyndale
Before I put any better effort into it and before I laugh, I wanted to make sure I'm reading you right, so I'm not, uh ... twisting your words, or whatever. Just so I'm clear, you're repeating the oft-failing claim of Christians that the only way to get an answer to one's questions is to submit to the Bible and cease to question? So that the only answer is to never ask? Maybe humanity is better off if we don't know this God. I love how God, the creator of all things, apparently isn't responsible for the results of His actions. Some moral example, eh? Maybe that's why the faith of reconciliation has been such a deadly force throughout history. Given that you disagree so sharply with your fellows in faith from time to time, we might assert then that only one of you can be right. What, did God not give good enough instructions? How is that your fault if you follow the instructions and still get it wrong? Really, put any effort you want into your faith: you're most likely wrong because that's the nature of this God. You know, that could be a drunken boast. Or the cryptic politico could try being a little more clear; there are, after all, neo-Nazis in this country (World Church) that think that means exterminating offenders. Thank you for that wonderful recital of dogma-inspired faith. The problem is that you cannot demonstrate any of that beyond the immediate expression of faith--that is, beyond what you choose to accept is true regardless of whether or not you can establish the veracity of that "truth". But if you rape, kill babies, or whatnot, in the name of God, that makes it okay? That's what I love about the ultraviolence of the Bible: God sells out His own principles so quickly that it sets a wonderfully concrete example for His followers. This kind of stuff was demonstrably dysfunctional when I was 14. You can do better than that: it reminds me of Lyle Berkman's sermon on the occasion of the death of a friend of mine: "What we all ought to know is that Kym died so that we could ask Jesus into our hearts." Yeah, I know there's a lot of tares in the flock: why do you aspire to be one? I am a human being, exactly as God made me. Anything else, he should have communicated better, or put inherently into the design. I know this. Now: Why do you insist on limiting God by demanding that he be attributed according to a single volume without historical, scientific, or spiritual credibility? No matter what you attempt to reduce God to, when you finally understand, you will have achieved an understanding of the limitations of faith, and absolutely nothing about God. You cannot undertand God by trying to reduce the issue to fit inside your skull. If God is, then God simply is. All of your declarations are mere attempts to make yourself more significant by reducing the magnitude of God. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Just wondering, does killing microscopic life count as killing? Do you know that how many harmless bacteria were killed by your immune system every second? Do you know that in your body, there are atoms that once was used to construct the body of a notorious murderer? Do you know that your stomach is digesting itself constantly? Maybe life is not created equal after all...
Breathe, Lyndale ... breathe .... Do you feel better, now? Seriously, I'm hoping for better than that. Much of what you've written and I've encapsulated above will evaporate upon refutation of the chronologically-first argument you've made. I shall endeavor to answer these points individually, but understand, please, that many of them overlap in their failures. For instance: * AGAIN YOU DEMONSTRATE DECEPTION AND YOUR OWN CONCLUSION...I NEVER SAID THAT. Specifically, sir, what you said was: You...don't know God if, you don't live by all the ways, His Son Jesus taught In other words, you have asserted that one cannot know God until one accepts the Bible as the truth. One cannot live according to the Bible without accepting it, or is this too much of a stretch? Mere coincidence of living conditions does not, as I recall, warrant salvation: one must also accept Jesus as a personal savior. Since acts alone do not cut it, what is implied here is that knowing Jesus tips the scales. Knowing Jesus, according to the blue-faced quote above, involves accepting Jesus, and in the context of our current debate, that means accepting Jesus without ever resolving one's questions of faith. One accepts Church dogma, in this case, and ceases to question, thereby "answering" the question by proxy of making it go away. Part of what is going on here, Lyndale, is that people both within the faith and without, are still trying to figure out exactly what the Bible says: there is much debate, and history shows this to be quite unacceptable to the organic body of Christians, who have through the ages moved to purge themselves of any thought falling somewhere off the immediate curve. All I have stated is the natural conclusion of your assertion. There is no deception there, but I understand that it's easier just to accuse people of deception than to put an ounce of thought into an educated response. * THIS IS YOUR OPINION, WHICH IS BASED ON AN IGNORANCE OF NOT KNOWING GOD...=EMPTY LOGIC. First I pose the question: my opinion as opposed to what? Your assumption of the nature of my opinion, ignorance of God, is generally fair, except that you give the apperance of claiming to know God. This does not mark the first time a Christian at Sciforums has declared God to be knowable by our finite brains, but that doesn't lessen the humor any. Secondly, I pose the question: With something so inconceivable as God is supposed to be, can anyone know God? The problem with asserting here that one knows God by reading the Bible is that history shows the most ungodly results when putting Biblical concept into practice. Knowing God via the Bible has been exceptionally detrimental to humankind. Thirdly, I pose the question: When does it stop being an opinion in the sense of demonstration? After all, your tantrum rates as just about typical, in my experience, for a Christian confronted with the absurdities of his faith. In that sense, I feel as if I know God and his religion better than some of the religionists: after all, they're still surprised by certain things, incredulous of others, and generally don't observe themselves in the sense of translating principle to practice. As to the statement that God is not responsible for his actions, well, what are we supposed to think? Apparently, God creates all. Apparently, nothing happens without God's Will. Yet when evil is afoot, where do we look? To the Devil, at least. Furthermore, to be more contextually specific: Thou shall not kill is easy enough to understand, yet many atrocities are committed in the Old Testament by the will of that God who demanded Thou shall not kill. Furthermore, the resultant history of Christian faith has demonstrated a faithful propensity toward murder and social nastiness. God is apparently the only one we shouldn't blame. This is paradoxical in one sense: that the only will involved is not morally responsible for the outcome thereof. * THIS MAKES NO SENSE.Of course it doesn't. I'm still flabbergasted that the message of Jesus Christ has resulted in so much death and destruction. To be more sympathetic about it, what makes no sense? What about the ministry of Jesus warrants mass torture and murder in the name of God's mercy? Yet Christian history is a stained mess, and the stains are largely of the blood of the innocent. The Gospel of Reconciliation has failed in that sense, and encouraged only greater division among the peoples of the Earth. * YOU DO NOT KNOW WHO MY FELLOW BELIEVERS ARE ...SO DONT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS. Would you assert that you have no brethren in faith? Are you so separate from the billion-plus Christians in the world that you have no fellows in Christ? Or is it that you think your beliefs represent all believers of Christ? * WHO ARE YOU TO KNOW THIS OR THAT ...SINCE YOU DISPLAY A CONSTANT IGNORANCE OF GOD? I can draw logical conclusions, Lyndale. Is this a foreign concept to you? I would hate to assume that your lack of logic represents the primary function of your thought process. Seriously ... if the Bible is accessible and contains the truth of God, how come there are so many interpretations among the faithful? (A note: several of the arguments you could posit here will result in a philosophical line which necessarily concludes with considerations of whether or not you are the only correct Christian on the planet. It's a natural conclusion of some arguments, so I would warn you in advance to avoid that glaring pitfall.) So which one is right? (Here we see those questions queueing up.) * AGAIN HOW DO YOU KNOW THE NATURE OF GOD...YOU ONLY SHOW IGNORANCE? I thought it was quite explicit that God is beyond comprehension. The nature of an incomprehensible God is that you can say anything you want to describe that God, but because it transcends the finite capabilities of the human brain, that sense of comprehension will necessarily be false. As I recall, this came up in relation to your statement: If you say you tried that and failed. It is your failure not God's. You failed because, at some point "you" stumbled from the path, that He laid before you and just because you failed, it dosen't mean theres no God. Again, I invoke Hurricane Neddy (The Simpsons) and his lament: I've done everything it says in the Bible, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff. Just because one failed to reach God through the Bible does not mean that there is no God. It is a strong indicator, though, since so few people ever attain God, that if God exists, it is not as described in the Bible. But the nature of God becomes somewhat predictable on certain issues when the theology reduces Him to fit inside a single book. * REACHING ARENT YOU? No, not really. I tend to see Jesus in an historical context; as a revolutionary, such a claim as Jesus made would definitely be a drunken boast. * REALLY REACHING HERE...WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS JUNK? PLEASE IF YOUR GOING TO MAKE REMARKES LIKE THIS...AT LEAST DO IT WITH A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE ONE YOU ARE IGNORANT OF .I want to pick out one phrase here, for starters: PLEASE IF YOUR GOING TO MAKE REMARKES LIKE THIS...AT LEAST DO IT WITH A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE ONE YOU ARE IGNORANT OFNow this is hilarious. Try again. Maybe if you stare at it for forty years in the desert, it will come to you. And if you can't figure out the rest of it, then I guess that's your problem. I'll take a swing at it, though: There are still people in the world who believe that the Way, Truth, and Life of Jesus includes exterminating the Jews. The farmer should have been much more careful when sowing his grain. Easy enough? * DITTO ...RIGHT BACK AT YOU...AGAINST YOUR OWN ARGUMENTS. Umm ... can you do better than quoting Rush Limbaugh? That sounds about standard for when His Corpulence has no answer. Either way, though, you'll have to be, well, a little more specific. * I DO NOT KILL BABIES. NOR DO I RAPE...ESPECIALLY IN THE NAME OF GOD.....JUST A NOTHER ASSUMPTION. Not that big an assumption: it's in the Bible. Amelekites come to mind. Something about razing the temples of Ba'al, as well. And then there's history ... that sad tale of Christian detriment against the world. At any rate, you wrote that If it is against the nature of God, it is a sin. Well, apparently it's not against the nature of God (as expressed by Thou shall not kill, and other principles) if one commits such acts in the name of God. Whether or not you rape and murder personally only counts if your image is that important to you. Generally, it's a safe assumption that Sciforums' posters aren't murderers (Lawdog excepted). But it's the nature of the faith you declare--faith in Jesus Christ. You know that phrase I bandy about? Clean up your own damn house first ...? This difficulty of Christian faith is on that cleaning list. * HOW CAN YOU TELL WHO OR WHO ISNT FOR GOD ...SINCE YOU KNOW NOT GOD....ANOTHER ASSUMPTION. I'm drawing my conclusions from examining the Bible. Something about Thou shall not kill. Something about mercy and forgiveness, too, but I understand that it's much easier to trump your label than enact it. * I HAVENT A CLUE NOR DOES ANYONE ELSE ...KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU AT 14...AND HERES A CLUE...I WONT MAKE AN ASSUMPTION EITHER. Incidentally, it's the next little bit you noted, the Berkman sermon. However, that is irrelevant to your present statement. The statement to which you objected merely indicates that Christian faith is so hollow a 14 year-old could see through the illusion. I might have had the hang of it by 12, though; it seems to have required a catalyst to drive that nail. * HEY YOU GOT ONE RIGHT. Coming from you, that improves my self-image Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Too bad, eh, that I'm the one who got it right? After all, the Christians blew it out their asses on that one. * SECOND ONE YOU GOT RIGHT...TRY LIVING BY IT. Aww ... you make me feel all warm and fuzzy. To the other, I am living by it. I am living as God made me. * HE INSPIRIED IT CLEARLY TO MAN IN HIS WORD...TRY READING IT. Why don't you tell me, then: Which selected portions of the Bible will give me the most gleaming composite of God possible, so that I don't have to worry about the issues of subscribing to sinful practices like murder and powerlust? After all, they're a huge part of that Biblical example, but since it's okay for God to behave in certain ways that it's not okay for humans, I thought I'd ask you how I should bowdlerize my Bible to make me the best Christian possible. If it was so clear, Lyndale, what's up with the history of what happened between then and now? If it was so clear, how come Christians who profess a common faith can't figure it out? The living example of the clarity of Christian faith is best expressed by the wretched state of Christian practice. What have you all made of your faith? It's shameful. * IS ALL YOU CAN DO IS MAKE ASSUMPTIONS? I can draw logical conclusions of people's words, too. That's a little less assumptive than religious faith. Considerably, actually. I mean, the Word of God is all we really have to compare against the Effect of God. They don't match up well, do they? Can God be comprehended by a single human mind? Yes? We can end this issue. No? Then it is correct to say that attributing God specifically according to the Bible composes an inaccurate picture at best. Thus, no matter how much you think you "understand" God, the best you can do is understand what you're told God is. It does not, by any proportionate means, represent God. What is infinity divided by three? What is the real-number quotient? * HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS...DID YOU BECOME THE EXPERT SINCE THE BEGINING OF YOUR REPLY? The human brain is finite: we have only so many brain cells. This sum does not even begin to match the number of grains of sand or salt on the Earth, nor the sum of the stars in the sky. You cannot conceive of all the Universe at once. To read the Bible and say you know God is to count one-Mississippi, two-Mississippi, and claim you understand meteorology. And that's still not proportionate: by comparison, you'd know proportionately more about meteorology. God is all there is, as I understand Christianity--greater than that which can be conceived. And you would still claim to comprehend God based on an incredibly finite number of letters on an incredibly finite number of pages? * SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE BELIEVING IN GOD HERE...BECAREFUL ...WOULD'NT WANT ANYONE TO THINK YOUR BELIEVING.... I don't think there's any danger of that. There's only two reasons anyone would think that, as far as I can tell: superstitious limitation of the Universe to two options--belief or nonbelief; or psychological wound that requires a certain sense of affirmation that you get accusing people of being what they're not so you can feel that much more important. Of course, maybe I should take it seriously, since you've done what nobody in history has done: comprehended God. Seriously, Lyndale, calm down. You're going to give yourself a stroke if you keep it up. You seem so aggressive and ready to chomp down to the bone that you present arguments that generally reflect that personal desire to win. If you want to debate an issue, that's cool, but is it really just dominion you seek? The ability to influence people on behalf of a murderous, hypocritical God? And a note: if you put the bracketed QUOTE command on both ends of the phrase you're targeting, you can cause your own words to stand out a little more. I'm quite happy the rhetoric was so simple and predictable: It's sometimes tough to tell where you begin and end; it's how I screwed up the post to Deadwood. Now, this is important because I don't ever want to be told that I didn't understand someone's argument when I had to fish it out of a bunch of other text. This is helpful to me and other posters who read what you write, but I'm not going to hound on the issue; I thought I'd mention it, at least. --Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
