France/Germany may have been right

Could you perhaps inform me on the causal relation between living in Israel and having historical & philosophical knowledge of zionism ?

In other words , how exactly does it matter that you live in Israel ? I do not live in Israel and lets not pretend you have any superior knowledge on it shall we ?

And witch one of them does not support Israel as a zionist state ? Also , the positions the peoples hold I listed , does not reflect the 2% of Jewish peoples in USA .

They are competing with the Euro-Amerikans for the highest power in USA . This when Euro-Amerikans hold 70% of the USA , while Jews hold 2% . Can you tell me what is wrong with that picture ? Dont patronize todays situation because of the fact that a Jew in a high place does not mean a danger to a country . We know that it doesnt , and only an anti-semite would claim different . This however doesnt change todays power distribution , within the economical system , the government and its bureaucracy & the media . Do you need more lists ?

Also , on top of Jewish zionists , there are Christian zionists as well . And on top of that there are simply peoples who want to make a buck and find themselves profiting in a position that suiths zionists .

Bull your opinion proves that you are not educated on the subject of Nazism nor Zionism , not on the historical relevance nor the philosophical ideology . 6 million Jews did not die because of some "zionist machine" theory , the Jewish question was in the very first place a racial one . Yes non-reflecting distribution of positions have made the gentiles rightfully suspiscious of the situation in order to question it . However the totality of the Jewish question was not based on a mere power distribution , it was based on the conspiracy of Jewish intermixing to destroy the "aryan" race .

You see Hitler never had the idea of a Jewish race in his mind before he start investigating on the Jews in Vienna . He always thought they were just like any other Germans with a funny religion , and he was right . Culturally they werent , linguistically (Yiddish) they werent , and Hitler made a race out of it .

Now the Zionists agreed with Hitler that they should not mix with the Germans as they upheld Heburaim Nationalism . They agreed that Europe needed to be rid of its Jews , and their solution to the Jewish question was Palestine . As their ideology itself upholds anti-semitism (The hatred against the culturally Yids & Hassidics) they incited it as Nazism evolved into the moster that caused the holocaused . Please do remember , that the zionists were COLLABORATING with Nazism untill 1942 (thats the middle of the holocaust yes) .

Oh yes indeed :


By 1934 the SS had become the most pro-Zionist element in the Nazi Party. Other Nazis were even calling them “soft� on the Jews. Baron von Mildenstein had returned from his six-month visit to Palestine as an ardent Zionist sympathiser. Now as the head of the Jewish Department of the SS’s Security Service, he started studying Hebrew and collecting Hebrew records; when his former companion and guide, Kurt Tuchler, visited his office in 1934, he was greeted by the strains of familiar Jewish folk tunes. There were maps on the walls showing the rapidly increasing strength of Zionism inside Germany. Von Mildenstein was as good as his word: he not only wrote favourably about what he saw in the Zionist colonies in Palestine; he also persuaded Goebbels to run the report as a massive twelve-part series in his own Der Angriff (The Assault), the leading Nazi propaganda organ (26 September to 9 October 1934). His stay among the Zionists had shown the SS man “the way to curing a centuries-long wound on the body of the world: the Jewish question�. It was really amazing how some good Jewish boden under his feet could enliven the Jew: “The soil has reformed him and his kind in a decade. This new Jew will be a new people.� To commemorate the Baron’s expedition, Goebbels had a medal struck: on one side the Swastika, on the other the Zionist star of David.

(Lenni Brenner - Zionism in the age of Dictators)

No you couldnt have done anything you wanted because there is still your labour etc you have to worry about , and there are on their side we would find the democrats in USA .

Do you think Israel doesnt completey annihilate Palestine because of Bush ? Bush is new , 1/3 of Clinton's administration was Jewist-Zionist as well .

Arik even admitted , but surely you would do it away as bragging .

Cowboyism ? Cowboyism ? Do you simplify modern geo-politics as cowboyism ? Your mind would fit a North-Korean body .

Yes the motive is Israel , and you disprove it by saying it brought more danger , witch is not true . For starters , your PM wouldnt agree with you , as he supported the war 100% . So maybe he doesnt care for Israel ? Maybe that is it ?

No it is not :

* Saddam was the only one capable to threaten Israel
* Saddam was a promoter of Arab alliance against Israel (remember the oil boycot ?)
* Saddam could not be trusted to stay calm as he saw the destruction of Israel his personal and historical mission .
* Saddam provided aid through Abu Nidal and if he wasnt already he could become a serious engine for the resistance in Palestine .
* Saddam has oil that Israel would love just as well .

But ofcourse , far beyond Saddam , there is the land the state of Iraq is settled on . In the long term geographically , and as we speak economically , Iraq was destined to become subject of zionist expansion .

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They cant do shit and history has proved it . Arab conventional armies are a laugh against the forces of Israel nevermind USA .

1)To who you are saying there is no knowledge of zionism ? Me ?
That would be a funny thing , so what exactly dont I know about Herzls theory and all the movements that followed it ?

2)Palestine was INHABITED dont act like Golda and pretend it was some swamp . Your revisionism reminds me of the holocaust-type revisionism where they say the jews could have never been gassed because the wholes in the shower-heads couldnt function efficient . DISGUSTING .

First of all Zionism didnt start in 47 . Yes the CHRISTIAN & MUSLIMS Arabs outnumbered the EUROPEAN JEWS . However you dealt with that by genocides that incited a 700.000 peoples diaspora . No outside Arab desires didnt have such an impact on the diaspora , they didnt receive a telegram and decided to seek another inhabitable place .

Who cares the disgusting colonial celebration of your grandparents ? Is that something to be proud of ? That you have managed to to replace indigious Christian & Muslim Arabs with a zionist occupation ?

And lets not even mention the wonderfull policy Israel has had toward ARAB Jews . It scared them from their Muslim brothers , it chased them into Israel by fear and lured them with illusions of the promised land , it pressured a new identity and treated them like second rate citizens .

Not that it treated the Yiddish Jews from Europe who were not into colonization any better though ......

Your "every source can be proved" refutation goes for EVERYTHING you are saying just as easy . The difference however lies within the logics behind it . As you are a zionist , your revisionism is only to be expected . The question is , is it rhetoriks are do you actually believe it .

And as Nico doesnt live the conflict , you dont live history .

Anyways , your entire "live" argument is dumb , by your logics NOBODY knows anything about something they dont experience first hand , and I mean .....99.9% of what we know isnt experienced first hand .... you simply dont acknowledge that percentage of knowledge to exist .

I mean honestly how the hell can you take yourself seriously when saying these things ?

Difference is one thing , relevance is another . Some lovely peoples supported Hitler as well . Please dont link support to ideology . Also , the difference is marginalized in the bigger identity of a zionist .

Not a zionist ?

Arabs werent familliar with peacefull robbing and murdering , hey its not your fault they dont know .

Im sorry but what you expect here is peoples to have accepted and join your party of colonization . You would probably have no clue what im talking about , but you remind me of Mladic .

Start with what you have typed in here first please . But do , challenge all "lies" .

Ill do my part and point you out some corrected Zionist "insecurities" :

1) A Jew has no right to return to Eretz Yisroel before G-d
2) There is no such thing as Jewish race .
3) Zionism wasnt Nazisms enemy but its friend from 1933 till 1942 .
4) The European Jew is not Hebrew Israelite . Heburaim Nationalism created the modern Hebrew Identity according to zionist ideals .
5) The original language of the Jews in Europe is Yiddish & Ladino , the original language of the Jews in the Arab world is Arabic . Modern Hebrew is not ancestral its artificially fabricated .
6) Zionism as a word is in disrespect of the Hebrew scriptures .
7) Zionism as an ideology teaches anti-semitism .
8) The "swamp" Palestine has been inhabited by Christian decendands of Arabs since Byzantium and Muslims as Arabs since the Khaliph throughout the Ottoman Empire . Almost indegious Palestinians were Christian Arabs before the zionists from Europe settled .
09) The war in Israel is not about Jews and Muslims , but about the occupier and the occupied .
10) Israel defines value of citizenship through ethnicity .
11) Israel hasnt always considered all Jews to be Jews enough for Israel .
12) 9) The Palestinian peoples diaspora was not because of Arab incitement but zionist genocide .

And no they didnt all flee into neighbouring countries , as if that would even matter Nothing Israel

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Logics always seems to convince me , you dont HAVE anything but distant peacenik dreams of disneyland . It is not about convincing another , it is about proving truth . I wouldnt care if you would be convinced by anything do not assume your entire existance holds any value in my perspective .

So present your arguments or do not incite a discussion that calls for them .

Im not a Palestinian your age and if I would be it has no relevance , please practice the pseudo-lessons you learn on somebody else and bring arguments if you want to make a point .

What apparent reason can there be for murdering babies ?

Like Perle & Wolfowitz ?

You can excuse absolutely everything cant you ? Your ideology is nationalist and has been fascist as first (back in the days of Jabo and Stern) , today its as fascist as the USA would be . Your society relies on mind-manipulation not physical enforcement .

I am an Arab and I have serious problems with your existence wich has relation to the Palestinian oppression . Now how exactly is that related with this Jordanian issue ? Tell me please .

Ehm....... yes sure . The problem can be located on 3 humans . Again I ask you , how do you manage to take yourself seriously when saying things like these ?

 

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Dear Nico,

Yeah, but you only mentioned Silverstein in your post. So people might have gotten the wrong impression.

The numbers were 1.2 million Arabs as opposed to 600,000 Jews. So it was of course just to simply ignore 33% of the population. And the fact you mentioned is based on a different interpretation of the the Torah, which at most 25% of the Jews accept. Again, you go around saying things you don't understand. And the most extremist of those - the same kind of people that kidnaps young Israeli kids so they will only grow up in the way of the Torah - are those showing in the picture you so helpfully attached.

That's one of the dumbest laws ever. Still, it is not based on pervert 'scientific' facts, it is based on somewhat reasonable security reasons.

I'd love to challenge it, but please let's do this in another ways. I'm ready for suggestions.

...in the opinion of people who have been brainwashed by the right-winged media.

Israel never glorified war, nor started one that was not absolutely necessary. 1948 War was started by the Arabs. 1967 was a preemptive war, as Arab armies were already on their way to start a war of their own. We never started a war out of nationalistic pride as Fascist Italy did, or out of vague excuses like Bush did.

Hell yes, that was not your land! You still illegally occupy that land, and you even put up settlements. You are colonizers on a foreign land. Jordan was the only thing btwn the W.Bank being free from Israel, and being colonized like today. Hey why didn't u mention Gaza?

It sure wasn't Jordanian, despite the fact that Jordan occupied it in 1948. The settlements are one of the most disputed issues in Israel, and in my opinion are one huge historical mistake, though we have justification incomparable to that Jordan had to seize the lands. If they was so worried about Palestinians, they should have given them an independent state like you demand us to do instead of giving them Jordanian identities and annexing the territory. Why didn't I mention Gaza? Because Egypt didn't annex Gaza in 1948. Neither did Israel. Gaza became the home to many Palestinian refugees, who then initiated a campaign of non-stop terror against Israel, with Egyptian support. In 1967, Israel conquered Gaza and Sinai to secure itself from Egyptian attacks and Palestinian terror. When we gave back Sinai, Egypt didn't want anything to do with Gaza. So to whom should we have given back Gaza? To the terrorist that infested (and still do) the area?

Dear Jagger, my mother was only an example. There are many sane Likudniks. And though I despise and mistrust Sharon, he shows signs (maybe fake ones) that he is beginning to change his violent ways. To bad his being corrupt will bring him down before he can do anything about it. It's very interesting what you say about the eternal Bush voters. It's the same in Israel, and that's part of the problem. A woman gave an interview to a newspaper about how the horrendous financial policy of the Sharon Government had left her jobless and poor. She was asked 'so, who are you going to vote to?' And she said 'only Likud.' People who vote out of tradition are usually those who give victory to dangerous people like Sharon and Bush. Another problematic group is the one who believes our historical right to the Land (Eretz Israel in Hebrew, Palestine in Arabic, I prefer to just call it the Land) gives us moral superiority over the Arabs, and that they don't deserve any rights. (This is only strengthened by Arab terror.) These people, as opposed to the previous group, I just hate, because they are the main obstacle on the road to peace (on both sides.)

That remains true, although as I said before, I hope the signs of change in Sharon's attitude (if he remains in power) are not false, and he will be brave enough to go against his hardline followers to promote a logical agreement. The problem in both countries is the lack of alternatives for leadership. As much as I respect people like Kerry and Gephardt, I don't think they're publicly strong enough to defeat Bush. That problem could be solved if Hilary Clinton suddenly decides to run, although that seems unlikely. In Israel, the new leader of the leftist Avoda (Labor) party, Amram Mitzna, former Mayor of Haifa, and a man I deeply respect as being honest and having logical political opinions, was completely ignored by voters in the 2003 Elections because of his apparent lack of experience. And people went back to the default - Sharon.

Dear Ghassan, I've been taught on Zionist principles since my birth as a result of being an Israeli (secular) Jew, and my strong interest in history only expanded my knowledge of Zionist principles. I do not claim to have superior historical knowledge, but I claim to know more about Zionist ideology because I've been taught it first hand.

I don't know the opinions of each of them personally. But many Christians also support Israel as a Zionist State. That doesn't mean they would start a $60 billion war just to defend it from a very indirect threat. As for the representation of Jews in government being unproportional to their part in the population, this has always been so, Jews have always been present in large numbers in the high ranks of society, not only in Politics, but also in Art, Sciences and many other areas. It has nothing to do with a government being fond of Jews, because most non-Jewish governments are only fond of Jews when they get something out of it. And if we're so in control of the US government, how comes that none of 43 Presidents was a Jew? Evangelical Christians have a religious excuse for supporting Israel as a Zionist State (by the way, according to their theory, in the End of Days, Jews would either have to become Christians or be destroyed. I'd prefer a smaller country to being destroyed, as I'm not planning to become a Christian any time soon,) but again, it doesn't mean they would start a war over it. And as for interesants - they'd hang on anyone's back who's in power, presently Bush, whose policies seem to some people as being pro-Zionist.

Most Germans wouldn't have cared about the racist theories of the Nazis if Jews weren't in positions of power in WWI and post-WWI Germany. And again, seeing many Jews in one place made them fear, based on distorted perception of the Jewish faith by people who don't know the first thing about it, that Jews are again trying to take over the world. These theories, which began in the Middle Ages, are the basis of anti-Semitism, and were the political basis of Nazism, that went well with the 'scientific' basis which I know very well, thank you very much. But I'd love it if you'd accept the fact - from a Jew who knows the principles of his faith - that there is no basis in Judaism for conquering other peoples, as opposed to some other religions, who do sanctify war as means of distributing their religious faiths. Be it the real will of Allah and the Prophet Mohammad that Muslims would go to war or later interpretation of the Muslim scriptures, Jihad - holy war - is still one of the foremost principles of Muslim religion.

Culturally, a large majority of German Jewry, had become seculized along with all of Europe, and people spoke German, wore German clothes, acted like a German in any way but for religious activities (one of the greatest Jewish philisophers, I can't remember which, summed it well: "Be a Jew in your home, and a man outside.") This I know being an offspring of a German Jewish family. Yiddish, which by the way is very similar to German in its vocabulary (if not in its script), was much more common among the Jews in Eastern Europe. Yet, the picture of the Orthodox Jew with the long beard and the hat made of fox tails became the archtype for Jewish description, which the Nazis later evolved into the famous cartoon of the long-nosed, black-haired, dark-eyed Jew.

The Zionists never agreed that Europe should be rid of Jews. At that stage, when a country was not even a wild dream, they simply wanted to bring themselves and their families, and maybe some others, to Palestine. Mass immigration wasn't in anyone's mind until after the Holocaust, because people still thought they were better off in Europe than in some distant Turkish province or British colony, although they still yearned for Zion in their songs and writings. Apart from an extremely small number of people, Zionists never collaborated with Germans, and even that was in an effort to save Jewish lives and property.

Oh, I really hope you're not turning for Communists, known for their tendency to unite all non-Communist ideologies and movements into one band, to show the 'relation' between Nazis and Jews. How sweet is it that the SS, which single-handedly committed Crystal Night (the countrywide destruction of Jewish property and murder of dozens of Jews in November 1938), which supervised the 1934 one-day embargo of Jewish businesses, that produced the Einsatzgruppen who in 1941 moved behind the German army advancing into the USSR slaughtering Jews in every village on their path, were so pro-Zionist. This should be thrown into History's trash bin with all the other Communist lies and distortions.

Oh, finally you admit that we haven't taken over the USA altogether. Finally you admit that there are some Israelis with a soul, which are the only barrier between the right-wing government and the destruction of the entire Palestinian people, or their expulsion out of the Land at the very least. That's a start. No, I'm just kidding. We don't destroy Palestine - even though the whole world knows we have the ability to - because all but the very extreme right-wing Israelis don't mind the Palestinian being where they are, it's just that the right-wing wants to keep control of the territories giving the Palestinians some self rule, while the left wants to give them a country.

I simplify Bush's stupidity, violence, lack of good judgement as cowboyism, because that is the best term I could find. I don't put all the absurd, sorry excuses he had for this war under 'cowboyism'.

It certainly seems like eliminating Saddam protected Israel. It doesn't matter that the only two times we were under risk (or supposed risk) of attack from Iraq that didn't have to do with a wide Arab-Israeli War were when a Bush pressed them to the wall. Israel can't of course defend itself against Iraq. It didn't destroy the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981. It doesn't have on the of the world's foremost anti-missile systems - Arrow.

Except Iran, Libya, Syria... do you want me to continue?

No he wasn't. He was never accepted as a foremost Arab leader as Nasser, and generally the Egyptians, were.

So do at least six Arab countries. So?

Half the Arab World gives funds to terror. Saddam simply gave funds to the families of suicide bombers in particular. And we all see that eliminating Saddam didn't have the slightest effect on Palestinian terror.

So would Britain. And Poland. And every country in Bush's coalition. Still, the oil issue mainly concerns the Texan oil tycoons, because since the war, Iraqi oil didn't switch hands - it stopped flowing, making everyone with spare oil rich. Not including oil-free Israel.

Oh, that one was hilarious. Because after Iraq will be completely 'liberated', it will be of course annexed to Israel. No Israeli with a normal mind would want anything to do with Iraqi land.

Overall, it is amazing how several months ago I was challenging the war talking with its Israeli supporters, and now I have to challenge it with Bush-haters like me. I simply must get you in contact with some friends of mine who would love to talk to you about how much this war helped Israel.

First of all, no foreign army, in five Arab-Israeli wars, had ever come to the help of Israel, except in 1956, where Britain and France acted out of pure financial and political motives which had nothing to do with defending Israel. Second of all, now that USA has began supplying its weapons to Arab countries (namely Egypt) as well, there is no difference between the quality of both armies technologically speaking, and there was never place to compare when numbers are concerned. We survived over spirit and training, and those are bound to crumble at some point.

If you say that Zionism wasn't about the Land at all, then maybe you do know something about Zionism - distorted, false information you have been fed by your media and government, like most of the Arab World.

Different from Golda, and from many Israelis, I totally respect the Palestinian right of self-definition and sovereignity, I just don't agree to eliminate my people and country in the process.

First of all, genocide is a term for widespread murder. You can barely say we killed 700,000 Palestinians. It's funny how we, with half the size of the Arab population and barely any weapons at all, made the Palestinians run away. During a war that they started. Colonial celebration? We were happy to find a way to live in peace in a place where no one could destroy us because of what we are. The Palestinians got a land completely proportionate to the size of their population, but they were so disgusted by the idea that they began a campaign to throw us into the sea. We agreed to live side by side with them; they didn't. These are the plain facts. And by the way, colonialism is one country spreading over to another country's territory. We didn't even have that one country to start with, and we agreed to accept one-third of a country. The Arabs didn't, because they were so confident they could win a war. They didn't. Too bad.

Treatment of Arab-Israelis, though it angers me a lot, is not anyway near the treatment Jews have been receiving everywhere for two millenia, notably in Arab countries. So don't preach to me about being nice to minorities.

As I have told Nico, I am more than willing to discuss facts with you, though it will be useless since we won't be able to convince each other - simply because our facts are different. But if you want - we can do it in private.

Of course they weren't. They were familiar with their own kind of robbing and murdering. Which they have been steadily following for at least thirty years before 1948. I could give you specific dates and locations, but you won't believe me anyway.

Out of sheer interest, I went and read about Mladic. Who, if we are talking pre-48, is much more comparable to the Arab leaders of that time.

An unpopular interpretation of the Bible.

Of course there isn't. Zionist made up the Bible and all the other written traditions over 3,500 years. Not to mention the non-Jewish sources that mention us throughout history (not with favor, I agree.)

Bullshit as I have previously claimed.

The Jewish national identity has been existent for 3,500 years (unlike, for example, the Palestinian one, who is barely 100 years old.) Jews have always yearned for Israel, as is written in many places, such as the Bible, medieval Jewish poetry, and modern articles.

Ancient Hebrew was the Jewish sacred language from the beginning of Judaism. Jews didn't speak it in their daily lives because A), they were living in another countries, and B), because of a religious interpretation that claimed Hebrew was too holy of a language to speak with about daily matters. A man named Eliezer Ben Yehuda modernized Ancient Hebrew and created Modern Hebrew.

Zionism symbolizes Jewish yearning for Zion = Jerusalem / the Land. Where do you get these stuff?

Of course! Zionism, as a Jewish movement, teaches people to hate Jews. Very logical.

Jews - albeit in small numbers - have always lived in the Land, a thing that cannot be said on followers of any other religions, that did not exist when the first Jews settled the Land. Most contemporary Palestinians are descendants of people who arrived in the Land from all over the Arab World - some of them as workers for the Jewish settlers - in the second half of the 19th Century. For proof: in 1848 there were 250,000 people in the Land. In 1948, 900,000. No people can self-multiply so quickly. So here's proof of mass immigration.

It's about the occupier, the occupied, and the occupied's friends who are several hundred times bigger than the occupier.

Had there been a Jewish State and and Arab State, as we accepted, the situation of Arab-Israelis would have been avoided altogether (if you would have allowed Israel to exist.) However, the situation does exist, and we give them rights that weren't given to us - or to other peoples - at many places.

That is why we accept grandchildren of Jews, who have no relation to Judaism whatsoever, and give them citizenship.

12)

Arab-incited war -> Palestinians running away, prepared to return as soon as Israel is annihilated -> Israel is not annihilated -> Palestinian diaspora created.

Conveniently enough, this map doesn't show 3.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, 2.5-3 million in Jordan, and more hundreds of thousands in Syria and Lebanon. But as you said (seeing how weak this argument of yours was), it doesn't matter.

It's funny. Your existence holds value in my perspective, as anyone's is, though your opinions are (mostly) based on distortion and lies. But notice that even though you don't care about me, you write long, reasoned challenges to my questions and answers.

Seems like Palestinians my age are much more tolerant than you. If you're so eager to do argue pointlessly, please e-mail me at saganot@walla.co.il where we can continue our lovely argument.

I don't know, but I think you should ask the sniper who shot a 10-month old baby as she was walking in the street. (I know, I know, you have examples enough to show that Israel murders babies too. I'm very familiar with those.)

And Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice and Karl Rove... who are in more powerful positions than the supposed Zionist conspirers you mentioned, except Rove, who simply tells Bush what to do.

Zhabotinsky and Stern were the most extremist of pre-48 Jewish leadership. One was banned from the Land, one was executed by the British. And none did violence at the scale of the Arabs, who not only hurted Jews, but started a widespread rebellion against the British.

Jordan occupied Palestinian territory and gave citizens of the West Bank Jordanian identities, meaning complete conquest without any room for a future Palestinian homeland. Israel occupied Jordanian territory containing Jordanian citizens of Palestinian ancestry, didn't officially annex the area, and now gives self rule to the residents on the way for an independent state. No one argued with Jordan. When Israel came, suddenly this whole Palestinian issue rised. Surprising.

I was trying to say something somewhat funny so my letter won't end in the bitter tone all of the posts so far have had (including mine). That wasn't meant to be serious.

To summarize: for argument about facts, e-mail me. For argument about ideology (hmphhhh...) post here. For insults, please avoid.

I'm so glad I have you people to argue with. Gives me something to do during those lazy holiday mornings.

 

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Dear Nico,

Yeah, but you only mentioned Silverstein in your post. So people might have gotten the wrong impression.

The numbers were 1.2 million Arabs as opposed to 600,000 Jews. So it was of course just to simply ignore 33% of the population. And the fact you mentioned is based on a different interpretation of the the Torah, which at most 25% of the Jews accept. Again, you go around saying things you don't understand. And the most extremist of those Jews - the same kind of people that kidnaps young Israeli kids so they will only grow up in the way of the Torah - are those showing in the picture you so helpfully attached.

That's one of the dumbest laws ever. Still, it is not based on pervert 'scientific' facts, it is based on somewhat reasonable security reasons.

I'd love to challenge it. E-mail me please.

...in the opinion of people who have been brainwashed by the right-winged media.

Israel never glorified war, nor started one that was not absolutely necessary. 1948 War was started by the Arabs. 1967 was a preemptive war, as Arab armies were already on their way to start a war of their own. We never started a war out of nationalistic pride as Fascist Italy did, or out of vague excuses like Bush did.

Hell yes, that was not your land! You still illegally occupy that land, and you even put up settlements. You are colonizers on a foreign land. Jordan was the only thing btwn the W.Bank being free from Israel, and being colonized like today. Hey why didn't u mention Gaza?

It sure wasn't Jordanian, despite the fact that Jordan occupied it in 1948. The settlements are one of the most disputed issues in Israel, and in my opinion are one huge historical mistake, though we have justification incomparable to that Jordan had to seize the lands. If they was so worried about Palestinians, they should have given them an independent state like you demand us to do instead of giving them Jordanian identities and annexing the territory. Why didn't I mention Gaza? Because Egypt didn't annex Gaza in 1948. Neither did Israel. Gaza became the home to many Palestinian refugees, who then initiated a campaign of non-stop terror against Israel, with Egyptian support. In 1967, Israel conquered Gaza and Sinai to secure itself from Egyptian attacks and Palestinian terror. When we gave back Sinai, Egypt didn't want anything to do with Gaza. So to whom should we have given back Gaza? To the terrorist that infested (and still do) the area?

Dear Jagger, my mother was only an example. There are many sane Likudniks. And though I despise and mistrust Sharon, he shows signs (maybe fake ones) that he is beginning to change his violent ways. To bad his being corrupt will bring him down before he can do anything about it. It's very interesting what you say about the eternal Bush voters. It's the same in Israel, and that's part of the problem. A woman gave an interview to a newspaper about how the horrendous financial policy of the Sharon Government had left her jobless and poor. She was asked 'so, who are you going to vote to?' And she said 'only Likud.' People who vote out of tradition are usually those who give victory to dangerous people like Sharon and Bush. Another problematic group is the one who believes our historical right to the Land (Eretz Israel in Hebrew, Palestine in Arabic, I prefer to just call it the Land) gives us moral superiority over the Arabs, and that they don't deserve any rights. (This is only strengthened by Arab terror.) These people, as opposed to the previous group, I just hate, because they are the main obstacle on the road to peace (on both sides.)

That remains true, although as I said before, I hope the signs of change in Sharon's attitude (if he remains in power) are not false, and he will be brave enough to go against his hardline followers to promote a logical agreement. The problem in both countries is the lack of alternatives for leadership. As much as I respect people like Kerry and Gephardt, I don't think they're publicly strong enough to defeat Bush. That problem could be solved if Hilary Clinton suddenly decides to run, although that seems unlikely. In Israel, the new leader of the leftist Avoda (Labor) party, Amram Mitzna, former Mayor of Haifa, and a man I deeply respect as being honest and having logical political opinions, was completely ignored by voters in the 2003 Elections because of his apparent lack of experience. And people went back to the default - Sharon.

Dear Ghassan, I've been taught on Zionist principles since my birth as a result of being an Israeli (secular) Jew, and my strong interest in history only expanded my knowledge of Zionist principles. I do not claim to have superior historical knowledge, but I claim to know more about Zionist ideology because I've been taught it first hand.

I don't know the opinions of each of them personally. But many Christians also support Israel as a Zionist State. That doesn't mean they would start a $60 billion war just to defend it from a very indirect threat. As for the representation of Jews in government being unproportional to their part in the population, this has always been so, Jews have always been present in large numbers in the high ranks of society, not only in Politics, but also in Art, Sciences and many other areas. It has nothing to do with a government being fond of Jews, because most non-Jewish governments are only fond of Jews when they get something out of it. And if we're so in control of the US government, how comes that none of 43 Presidents was a Jew? Evangelical Christians have a religious excuse for supporting Israel as a Zionist State (by the way, according to their theory, in the End of Days, Jews would either have to become Christians or be destroyed. I'd prefer a smaller country to being destroyed, as I'm not planning to become a Christian any time soon,) but again, it doesn't mean they would start a war over it. And as for interesants - they'd hang on anyone's back who's in power, presently Bush, whose policies seem to some people as being pro-Zionist.

Most Germans wouldn't have cared about the racist theories of the Nazis if Jews weren't in positions of power in WWI and post-WWI Germany. And again, seeing many Jews in one place made them fear, based on distorted perception of the Jewish faith by people who don't know the first thing about it, that Jews are again trying to take over the world. These theories, which began in the Middle Ages, are the basis of anti-Semitism, and were the political basis of Nazism, that went well with the 'scientific' basis which I know very well, thank you very much. But I'd love it if you'd accept the fact - from a Jew who knows the principles of his faith - that there is no basis in Judaism for conquering other peoples, as opposed to some other religions, who do sanctify war as means of distributing their religious faiths. Be it the real will of Allah and the Prophet Mohammad that Muslims would go to war or later interpretation of the Muslim scriptures, Jihad - holy war - is still one of the foremost principles of Muslim religion.

Culturally, a large majority of German Jewry, had become seculized along with all of Europe, and people spoke German, wore German clothes, acted like a German in any way but for religious activities (one of the greatest Jewish philisophers, I can't remember which, summed it well: "Be a Jew in your home, and a man outside.") This I know being an offspring of a German Jewish family. Yiddish, which by the way is very similar to German in its vocabulary (if not in its script), was much more common among the Jews in Eastern Europe. Yet, the picture of the Orthodox Jew with the long beard and the hat made of fox tails became the archtype for Jewish description, which the Nazis later evolved into the famous cartoon of the long-nosed, black-haired, dark-eyed Jew.

The Zionists never agreed that Europe should be rid of Jews. At that stage, when a country was not even a wild dream, they simply wanted to bring themselves and their families, and maybe some others, to Palestine. Mass immigration wasn't in anyone's mind until after the Holocaust, because people still thought they were better off in Europe than in some distant Turkish province or British colony, although they still yearned for Zion in their songs and writings. Apart from an extremely small number of people, Zionists never collaborated with Germans, and even that was in an effort to save Jewish lives and property.

Oh, I really hope you're not turning for Communists, known for their tendency to unite all non-Communist ideologies and movements into one band, to show the 'relation' between Nazis and Jews. How sweet is it that the SS, which single-handedly committed Crystal Night (the countrywide destruction of Jewish property and murder of dozens of Jews in November 1938), which supervised the 1934 one-day embargo of Jewish businesses, that produced the Einsatzgruppen who in 1941 moved behind the German army advancing into the USSR slaughtering Jews in every village on their path, were so pro-Zionist. This should be thrown into History's trash bin with all the other Communist lies and distortions.

Oh, finally you admit that we haven't taken over the USA altogether. Finally you admit that there are some Israelis with a soul, which are the only barrier between the right-wing government and the destruction of the entire Palestinian people, or their expulsion out of the Land at the very least. That's a start. No, I'm just kidding. We don't destroy Palestine - even though the whole world knows we have the ability to - because all but the very extreme right-wing Israelis don't mind the Palestinian being where they are, it's just that the right-wing wants to keep control of the territories giving the Palestinians some self rule, while the left wants to give them a country.

I simplify Bush's stupidity, violence, lack of good judgement as cowboyism, because that is the best term I could find. I don't put all the absurd, sorry excuses he had for this war under 'cowboyism'.

It certainly seems like eliminating Saddam protected Israel. It doesn't matter that the only two times we were under risk (or supposed risk) of attack from Iraq that didn't have to do with a wide Arab-Israeli War were when a Bush pressed them to the wall. Israel can't of course defend itself against Iraq. It didn't destroy the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981. It doesn't have on the of the world's foremost anti-missile systems - Arrow.

Except Iran, Libya, Syria... do you want me to continue?

No he wasn't. He was never accepted as a foremost Arab leader as Nasser, and generally the Egyptians, were.

So do at least six Arab countries. So?

Half the Arab World gives funds to terror. Saddam simply gave funds to the families of suicide bombers in particular. And we all see that eliminating Saddam didn't have the slightest effect on Palestinian terror.

So would Britain. And Poland. And every country in Bush's coalition. Still, the oil issue mainly concerns the Texan oil tycoons, because since the war, Iraqi oil didn't switch hands - it stopped flowing, making everyone with spare oil rich. Not including oil-free Israel.

Oh, that one was hilarious. Because after Iraq will be completely 'liberated', it will be of course annexed to Israel. No Israeli with a normal mind would want anything to do with Iraqi land.

Overall, it is amazing how several months ago I was challenging the war talking with its Israeli supporters, and now I have to challenge it with Bush-haters like me. I simply must get you in contact with some friends of mine who would love to talk to you about how much this war helped Israel.

First of all, no foreign army, in five Arab-Israeli wars, had ever come to the help of Israel, except in 1956, where Britain and France acted out of pure financial and political motives which had nothing to do with defending Israel. Second of all, now that USA has began supplying its weapons to Arab countries (namely Egypt) as well, there is no difference between the quality of both armies technologically speaking, and there was never place to compare when numbers are concerned. We survived over spirit and training, and those are bound to crumble at some point.

If you say that Zionism wasn't about the Land at all, then maybe you do know something about Zionism - distorted, false information you have been fed by your media and government, like most of the Arab World.

Different from Golda, and from many Israelis, I totally respect the Palestinian right of self-definition and sovereignity, I just don't agree to eliminate my people and country in the process.

First of all, genocide is a term for widespread murder. You can barely say we killed 700,000 Palestinians. It's funny how we, with half the size of the Arab population and barely any weapons at all, made the Palestinians run away. During a war that they started. Colonial celebration? We were happy to find a way to live in peace in a place where no one could destroy us because of what we are. The Palestinians got a land completely proportionate to the size of their population, but they were so disgusted by the idea that they began a campaign to throw us into the sea. We agreed to live side by side with them; they didn't. These are the plain facts. And by the way, colonialism is one country spreading over to another country's territory. We didn't even have that one country to start with, and we agreed to accept one-third of a country. The Arabs didn't, because they were so confident they could win a war. They didn't. Too bad.

Treatment of Arab-Israelis, though it angers me a lot, is not anyway near the treatment Jews have been receiving everywhere for two millenia, notably in Arab countries. So don't preach to me about being nice to minorities.

As I have told Nico, I am more than willing to discuss facts with you, though it will be useless since we won't be able to convince each other - simply because our facts are different. But if you want - we can do it in private.

Of course they weren't. They were familiar with their own kind of robbing and murdering. Which they have been steadily following for at least thirty years before 1948. I could give you specific dates and locations, but you won't believe me anyway.

Out of sheer interest, I went and read about Mladic. Who, if we are talking pre-48, is much more comparable to the Arab leaders of that time.

An unpopular interpretation of the Bible.

Of course there isn't. Zionist made up the Bible and all the other written traditions over 3,500 years. Not to mention the non-Jewish sources that mention us throughout history (not with favor, I agree.)

Bullshit as I have previously claimed.

The Jewish national identity has been existent for 3,500 years (unlike, for example, the Palestinian one, who is barely 100 years old.) Jews have always yearned for Israel, as is written in many places, such as the Bible, medieval Jewish poetry, and modern articles.

Ancient Hebrew was the Jewish sacred language from the beginning of Judaism. Jews didn't speak it in their daily lives because A), they were living in another countries, and B), because of a religious interpretation that claimed Hebrew was too holy of a language to speak with about daily matters. A man named Eliezer Ben Yehuda modernized Ancient Hebrew and created Modern Hebrew.

Zionism symbolizes Jewish yearning for Zion = Jerusalem / the Land. Where do you get these stuff?

Of course! Zionism, as a Jewish movement, teaches people to hate Jews. Very logical.

Jews - albeit in small numbers - have always lived in the Land, a thing that cannot be said on followers of any other religions, that did not exist when the first Jews settled the Land. Most contemporary Palestinians are descendants of people who arrived in the Land from all over the Arab World - some of them as workers for the Jewish settlers - in the second half of the 19th Century. For proof: in 1848 there were 250,000 people in the Land. In 1948, 900,000. No people can self-multiply so quickly. So here's proof of mass immigration.

It's about the occupier, the occupied, and the occupied's friends who are several hundred times bigger than the occupier.

Had there been a Jewish State and and Arab State, as we accepted, the situation of Arab-Israelis would have been avoided altogether (if you would have allowed Israel to exist.) However, the situation does exist, and we give them rights that weren't given to us - or to other peoples - at many places.

That is why we accept grandchildren of Jews, who have no relation to Judaism whatsoever, and give them citizenship.

12)

Arab-incited war -> Palestinians running away, prepared to return as soon as Israel is annihilated -> Israel is not annihilated -> Palestinian diaspora created.

Conveniently enough, this map doesn't show 3.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, 2.5-3 million in Jordan, and more hundreds of thousands in Syria and Lebanon. But as you said (seeing how weak this argument of yours was), it doesn't matter.

It's funny. Your existence holds value in my perspective, as anyone's is, though your opinions are (mostly) based on distortion and lies. But notice that even though you don't care about me, you write long, reasoned challenges to my questions and answers.

Seems like Palestinians my age are much more tolerant than you. If you're so eager to do argue pointlessly, please e-mail me at saganot@walla.co.il where we can continue our lovely argument.

I don't know, but I think you should ask the sniper who shot a 10-month old baby as she was walking in the street. (I know, I know, you have examples enough to show that Israel murders babies too. I'm very familiar with those.)

And Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice and Karl Rove... who are in more powerful positions than the supposed Zionist conspirers you mentioned, except Rove, who simply tells Bush what to do.

Zhabotinsky and Stern were the most extremist of pre-48 Jewish leadership. One was banned from the Land, one was executed by the British. And none did violence at the scale of the Arabs, who not only hurted Jews, but started a widespread rebellion against the British.

Jordan occupied Palestinian territory and gave citizens of the West Bank Jordanian identities, meaning complete conquest without any room for a future Palestinian homeland. Israel occupied Jordanian territory containing Jordanian citizens of Palestinian ancestry, didn't officially annex the area, and now gives self rule to the residents on the way for an independent state. No one argued with Jordan. When Israel came, suddenly this whole Palestinian issue rised. Surprising.

I was trying to say something somewhat funny so my letter won't end in the bitter tone all of the posts so far have had (including mine). That wasn't meant to be serious.

To summarize: for argument about facts, e-mail me. For argument about ideology (hmphhhh...) post here. For insults, please avoid.

I'm so glad I have you people to argue with. Gives me something to do during those lazy holiday mornings.

 

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Many of you talk about Zionism. What I see being spouted is typical anti-Semitism. If the Arabs had not attacked in 1948, then the Palestinians would still be there and the Arabs controlling Jerusalem. You seem to discount thousands of years of massacres and racism, not to mention the overt racism of places like France and the middle east to Jews/Israel. If you want to argue whose land it is in Israel, well originally the Jews were there first and now got it back. History and all of civilization is pretty much about one group of people being pushed out by another and yet because they are Jews then it is a different matter. The racism I see here is just like Farrakhan's, watch out the Jews are everywhere. You are not even ashamed of you bigotry. Where are the Saudis and others helping the Palestinians instead of paying homocide bombers off? I could hardly read the posts, it was almost nauseating.

Everyone acts like Israel is racist, they are just trying to stay alive when for the last 55 years, everyone but the US has in one way or another been undermining or out right seeking to destroy Israel. Why? Because they are Jews, pure racist BS!!! I can site examples all over the world where no one cares, but for Israel. There are not even rational arguments here, just Jews are bad, are taking over, blah blah blah.

As to Bush, I totally support him, he had the guts to enforce a UN resolution that no one else would, then I hear nothing but how the US goes against world will. Twelve years after the war, 18 resolutions, inspection nonsense, and non-cooperativeness. What would have happened if the world had enforced the Versailles treaty, possibly no war with Germany? The US can act in its own defence regardless of whether the rest of the world wants us too. Finally, we have a president with some cajones to defend us instead of screwing us both figuratively and literally.

Check this for some scope on how hard it is to find WMDs:

http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2003/8/4/91821

Besides, if the war had been about oil, we could have had the sanctions lifted, invade Kuwait the troops were already in the country.

 

Many of you talk about Zionism. What I see being spouted is typical anti-Semitism.

Well inorder to be a anti-semite you have to be jewish and of the semitic race. Now most Euro Jews are not semitic, rather they are of the same racial mixture as their surrounding natives. Thus they are as German as a German, all that is different is the religion. Secondly in order to be Jewish you have to believe in the Jewish faith, most Zionist are atheist. And Zionism is a atheist movement that rejects the Torah.

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not to mention the overt racism of places like France and the middle east to Jews/Israel.

I am not arab, but how about the overt racism that Arabs encounter in the west today?

If you want to argue whose land it is in Israel, well originally the Jews were there first and now got it back.

Where do i strike down this fallacy, the inhabitants of the Levant were the Cannites. Now the Hebrews left for 250 years or so to Egypt. (Hebrew dosen't mean religion). It wasn't until Moses came back to the land that it was Jewish, so the inhabitants who were in that region before moses are the true inhabitants.

You are not even ashamed of you bigotry

Are u not ashamed of your ignorance?

Where are the Saudis and others helping the Palestinians instead of paying homocide bombers off?

Let's not forget that Israel was bombing in Muslim countries in the 50's to bring Jews to the Zionist entity, by claiming that the arabs were anti- Jewish. Let's not forget that Israel is a result of terrorism itself as well. So I really don't see the difference btwn Pals. and Israeli terror.



Why?

I personally don't want to destroy israel all i want to do is expose the truth behind Israel's creation. To claim that the region is Jewish is false. It is Arab, they have lived there for thousands of years and they are the true inhabitants of the region.

I can site examples all over the world where no one cares, but for Israel.

Of course that is a lie, because i condemn Russian, Chinese, and the injusticies done by the Americans to the indian populations.

As to Bush, I totally support him, he had the guts to enforce a UN resolution that no one else would, then I hear nothing but how the US goes against world will.

Well Ignorant does as ignorant sees it seems.

Twelve years after the war, 18 resolutions, inspection nonsense, and non-cooperativeness.

Ah yes and in those 12 years 95-98% of Iraqi WMD program destroyed, 1 million dead iraqi's due to the sanctions, a massive increase in cancer rates, infrastructure destroyed, and most of the country living on food aid. Yes who is the nonsenical one here?

What would have happened if the world had enforced the Versailles treaty, possibly no war with Germany?

What? from 1920 till 1935 the treaty was enforced.

Finally, we have a president with some cajones to defend us instead of screwing us both figuratively and literally.


You do realize that your president defended u from nothing, and now America is more at danger then ever before?

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Ohh and for Nothing the map of the Disapora in the ME:

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jeez allah

that was one helluva long post. lets break for a moment cos i wanna share something thats gotta be right up your alley. kids! i present adf and "fortress europe". enjoy!

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edit: ok then allah, look for the song in nico's ruined euro thread

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Spookz

That was already done and ruined my Euro superpower post!

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oh dearie me

fuck i need some memory tabs

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Nothing Israel on Zionist Ideology

Who the hell said that zionism wasnt about "the land" ? BTW at first it actually wasnt , y'all were supposed to go to Argentina first , Uganda second .

I have studied zionism by reading zionists and by reading historians who discuss zionism of either atheist or Jewish origin. Im not in the Arab world so please ......

Im sorry but you are no Hebrew Israelite nomatter how many times u stand on your head and jump up and down . There is no Jewish race there is only Jewish culture and religion .

Also , nobody cares for Palestinian anational authencity as there exists no Syrian no Iraqi no anything , all of this doesnt conflict in anyways with the fact that peoples have lived there without nationalist aspirations before EUROPEAN zionists came and took what the Brits had colonized .

Nobody denies existance of peoples of Jewish religion originating with the Hibiru tribe . However those peoples have not more in comon to you than an Indonesian Muslim has in common with prophet Muhammad , an ideologal share . Not a racial one .

Ancient Hebrew was a semitic language of the semitic peoples of the Hibiru tribe . The peoples who practice Judaism today have no relation to this language nor to thee peoples other than the share of scriptures .

The language of European Jews is Yiddish and Ladino , there has never been a European Jew in 1000 BC who spoke Ancient hebrew as there were no European Jews in 1000 BC to begin with .

From Jews . It disrespects as your secular political zionism does not represent any Jewish yearning but secular greed .

But sure ... they're fundies right ?

Dont claim logical failure because you simply are not aware of the premisses please :

Yitzchak Etshalom on his inferiority complex that motivated zionism :

A "new Jew" was going to be created; a Jew unbound by centuries of tradition and belief, a "modern" Jew who would be able to sit at the table (literally as well as figuratively) with the member of any other nation and look at him as an equal.

Look what Jabo had to say :

Our starting point is to take the typical Yid of today and to imagine his diametrical opposite ... because the Yid is ugly, sickly, and lacks decorum, we shall endow the ideal image of the Hebrew with masculine beauty. The Yid is trodden upon and easily frightened and, therefore, the Hebrew ought to be proud and independent. The Yid is despised by all and, therefore, the Hebrew ought to charm all.

Benjamin Harshav , one of the well known critics of modern Hebrew literature, cites Uri Avnery, a leftist post Zionist:

Zionist literature, taught to every Jewish child in Palestine, depicted Jewish life in Eastern Europe as despicable, the whole tradition and folklore of the ghetto as cowardly, crooked, parasitical." Jews were "depicted in Zionist schoolbooks in a way rather reminiscent of anti-Semitic literature

Yehezkel Kaufman , professor of Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, wrote that Jewish nationalism was built "on a foundation of anti-Semitism." It blamed Jews themselves for their misfortunes and said they deserved to be hated. Kaufman offered examples of what some prominent Zionists called their brethren in the diaspora: "gypsies, filthy dogs, inhuman; parasites, people fundamentally useless; slaves, helots, worms, filth, rootless parasites."

He noted that every nation has its diaspora... those who emigrated... yet "none are considered slaves and dogs except the Jews... and by themselves." He wrote, "Many Zionists... are completely convinced that in order to become 'good Zionists' we must first become 'good anti-Semites,' that we must first hate ourselves."

Preeminent Zionist Theodor Herzl was a self-hating Jew. As a correspondent in Paris he wrote, "I took a look at the Paris Jews and saw a family likeness in their faces: bold, misshapen noses; furtive and cunning eyes." He also wrote that anti-Semites were "fully within their rights."

Lets do the game : name that fallacy . You think you can do this one ? Come on you with all your research skills should surely come up with something .

Please explain how exactly you are refuting the point that the Torah forbids such a state ? Tell me

Zionists made up the bible what the hell are you talking about man ? Do you equalize your multi-racial Jewish religion to the Hibiru tribe that decended from Kemet ?

There was once a time where all peoples of Jewish faith were of one tribal group , the Hebrew Israelites . There was also a time when all Muslims were of one tribal group : the Sabean-Arabian Quraish .

There's no such thing as Jewish race , the closest you might get with the Falashmure , the Sephardim are like Arabs very mixed in the regions , and Hebrew origin of European Jews is very questionable in its totality , and if not the mixing is beyond holding any resemblence to the original Hebrew tribe .

Jews as any other religions resemble racially the peoples that surround them . Polish Jews remeble Poles , Bulgar jews resemble Bulgars , German jews resemble Germans and Arab Jews resemble Arabs .

No such thing as Jewish race , and if you would care you would read another communist (oh no) :

Karl Kautsky - Rasse and Judentum

Tell me , are you racially the same as this woman ?

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Not if they're Black and come from Ethiopia . And honestly , after Herzls book was closed it was supposed to be European (surely not to everybody but to some) , not Arab or anyother .

We Jews have nothing in common with what is called the 'Orient,' thank God. To the extent that our uneducated masses have ancient spiritual traditions and laws that call the Orient, they must be weaned away from them, and this is in fact what we are doing in every decent school, what life itself is doing with great success. We are going in Palestine, first for our national convenience, [second] to sweep out thoroughly all traces of the 'Oriental soul.'

 

Nothing Israel on Nazisms & Zionism

1) Yes ethnic inequality in distribution of power is a feeding ground fo conflict , nobody is denying that . The fact that the step from inequal distribution of power that pushes some interests as more valued than others , to demonization of an entire peoples isnt far apart , doesnt disprove the fact that there IS inequal distribution of power favoring the zionists as never before .

2) The only thing you are showing here are indeed anti-semitic Jew-conspiracy theories . I am not the one claiming Jews are consciously plotting to take over the world . Does one have to plot to take over the world to be owner of WTC ? Does one have to plot to take over the world to be frontman at Microsoft ?

3) If you know the principles of your faith how come you dont know that a Jewish state has no business in Eretz Yisroel untill Hashem appoints it to you ? Or do you hold a different interpertation , one that does fit your needs , perhaps ?

4) Jihad doesnt translate into holy war . The aspect of the concept of Jihad you try to point to is the physical total war against the threatner of ones existence . That has little to do with any conquering . And your pointing to Islam to compare your peacefull religion with is pathetic , do you always point at others when you cant answer for your own stuff ?

And again , nobody was after your Jewish faith .
Not me in anyways .

The fact that they secularized , adapted and held their culture to themselves doesnt make them culturally equal , although IMO the difference is of no value whatsoever .

And yes , indeed the issues were made huge , thats the proces of demonization . I just wanted to remember you how zionists loved this propaganda , for after all that yid with beard and nose was their greatest enemy of the time as well .

And Im quite aware of the Germanic-Slavic dialect that is Yiddish, you're not really in

None of this information is correct . Unless you will provide backkup I wont do so either . I have already mentioned Brenner , I can mention alot more .

1) Zionism collaborated with Nazism on political level this has been documented go educate yourself please , and as they were the only polical Jewish movement allowed till 1942 they were the only ones who could interact best with the Ordnungsdiesnt in the ghetto's and the Judenrat .

2) No they werent better off in Europe ghetto-life SUCKED with 20.000 peoples streets . And Europe had no future , Palestine did . That is for the zionists , the non-zionist Jews had a totally different perspective .

3) Wild dreams ? It was policy zionist policy to immigrate into Palestine in order to establish a state , they had serious ideological backing to their immigration proces . Should we bring in all the movements from 1933 till the independance ?

4) There couldnt have been mass immigration as many Jews didnt wat to migrate .

I did want to mention one thing though :


Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and
the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany
(1941)

The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:

* Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.
* Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,
* The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.

1) A proper refutation is based on the content and not the source

2) Stop equalizing Jews to Zionists as those are not the same . How come u keep doing this with zionism but not with communism ? Afterall the peoples relevant in the matter are Jewish communists and Jewish zionists , and afterall both ideologies originate in the religious anti-semitic circle of the German-Jewish secular philosophy spheres .

3) SS loved Kapos , Ordnungsdienst & Judenrat as well , they were Jews as well (and suspected zionists) .

4) Communists are more credible as zionists as communists have showed resistance unlike zionists and as communists upheld the Yiddish culture unlike zionists . Also communists unlike zionists DONT believe in racial values , witch is a huge plus IMO .

5) Do you disprove any of the facts given ? No ? Proving Jew-hate amongst the SS and showing their destruction of Russian Jewry .

Let me ask you , would you consider Russian Jews and polish Jews the same in the following perspective :

All Polish Jews are not worth a cow in Palestine

And I also wanted to mention that i could use the same arguments , for instance from Hassidic sources . Im sure you will do it off in exact the same way you did communism .

Your claims are worthless without any backing , you cant even provide a logical theory in witch zionists would have such big problems with nazi's (untill 42 that is) , and you expect to be taken seriously in your opinion ? Considering all the other claimes you made ? Considering your superiority-complex ?

Do some research man , im sure all of it is totally new to you . And try to leave your emotional connection out of it please , a person only finds the answer he is looking for .

More importantly they were the big thing in Europe BEFORE 1948 . Can we remember what that was about ? Yes , can we ?

Do you actually condemn Arab rebellion against Brittish colonizers ? OMG , again I ask you are you Pizarro just tell me .

And no , I mean u can say Arabs did this Arabs did that , dispite the fact that you havent any evidence of higher numbers (btw why do u compare 2 men with an entire culture of peoples ? ) there is absolutely no logics for such , you wouldnt be here to talk if it all was so . I think you are amazing in your attempts to justify your zionist position independant of what your zionist position is .

 

Nothing Israel on the Palestinian question

The same as Golda , you deny Palestinian existence pre-zionism . Simply by showing a difference in some other aspect doesnt change that in any way .

As for your disagreement , I understand very well that you dont agree with the elimination of your peoples and country , however you seem to have missed the entire point that your entire existance is because of elimination of OTHER peoples on a land that is not yours to take .

Murder doesnt start at 700.000 neither does genocide .

1) You made them run away because you had your capable Haganah , and your lunatic gangs of Irgun and Lehi .

2) Dont equalize Palestinian peoples with Arab armies . You have this huge issue with holding things seperate dont you ?

You know whats really funny ? That today Palestinians have their own militias too .

* No you werent happy to live in peace because you were the ones declaring a Jewish state and chasing peoples out destroying 400+ villages .

* Palestinian land proportionate to the size of the population is of no relevance whatsoever as there is no place for European settlers to decide a proportionat land for a indegious peoples .

* I havent seen any facts with you ,and you havent presented any material just your personal conviction of how your all about peace and happyness . Hey .... so was Pizarro and so was Hitler .

* the conflict is far from finished
* the existence of a motherland is irellevant to your deads as a foreign occupyer and settler . Pick a new word if a motherland is your biggest issue with colonism , I dont mind .

* dont compare how u treat A by how B has treated you .
* Notably in the Arab countries Jews weretreated better than anywhere else on this planet , where did the Sefardim go after the inquisition expelled them ?

You sure as hell cant show me 400 Jewish villages that has been destroyed by Arab Muslim & Arab Christians .

Do you think I wouldnt believe anti-zionist or even anti-jewish (Arab Jewish) autrocities ?

* You obviously dont care for quantity
* You obviously dont care for original aggression
* You obviously dont care for context within flow of things

Obviously you have read but have not discovered the clue . Im not giving it away so u go on re-searching , perhaps you should start with Srebrenica and the huge party there .

And why do you compare him to Arab leaders ? Because you expect me to defend them ? Oh my how foolish can you be .

* There peoples inthat land before the Hebrews came
* Some value the continuance more than the original , as far as religions go .

In anyways there is really no point in your justification of a European occupation by pointing to some ancient Hebrews who have lived there and have remained and mixed with the natives . Perhaps you didnt know but there is no difference between Arab Jews and Arab Christians or Arab Muslims , so Im not really seeing how todays person of any of those groups , as Arabs , have any more claim to that land . Also Zionism had little to do with Arab Jewry that lived in Palestine . Zionism is an European invention , stop hijacking a religion of other peoples to justify your un-religious actions .

* You provide no proof of mass Immigration , in Saudi the average mother has 8 children , only an average of 2.8 children per couple is enough to make 900.000 in 4 generations with is 100 years . However 5 generations isnt unthinkable either .

I wonder , since zionists complain about it non-stop : what is todays rate amongst palestinians ? How many palestinian refugees have been born 50 years after the 700.000 diaspora ?

So if your numbers are correct , your argument has been refuted .

I wont deny there was immigration , but dont imagine masses when they arent there .

The occupieds friends have proved that your defintion of bigger has no relation whatsoever with zionist superiority on defence .

In other words , your "bigger" is of little relevance .

* You should try to understand that when you work with illogical divisions you will get a mess : There are Arab Jews as well , your seperation makes no sense : Either say A Muslim , A Christian and a Jewish state or say an Arab and an European state . Ofcourse you cant say that because you're hypnotized by the illusion you are a peoples .

When did the war start and when did the diaspora start . Can you give me dates where the diaspora follows the war ?

Anyways Arabs incited war against an occupyer , you are not indegious population but a colonist without a motherland .

That is not convenience that is the whole point , you claim that they all went to the neighbouring countries and I show they didnt . Do you actually have in your mind that i would deny the millions in Gaza & WB & the surrounding countrie ?

The fact it doesnt matter doesnt show weakness of my argument , it shows the weakness of your point IF you would have one witch you dont .

Instead of blabla tell me why it matters that they fled into neighbouring countries ? Because they are Arab ? So it would be like , their land ? Oh my your trail of thought is so predictive .

Its not "too" , its 7 times as many in the very least .

And 10 month old babies dont walk down the street .

 

Nothing Israel on the Arab wars

Your mind on this issue is that of a North Korean Im not kidding . If you cant find better words for securing ones interests then Im sorry , but Cowboyism etc isnt what makes this world spin dude .

1) The fact that you are at danger when your ally from far attacks your enemy is only LOGICAL . Your argument is worth 0 .

2) The fact that you can defend yourself when attacked doesnt change a preferance of removal . Especially when u DONT have to do it yourself .

3) You dont need to argue Israels capability as nobody is pointing it out .

You can continue mentioning names of countries that are less threatning to Israel than Iraq , but I dont see how it really proves your point . I do find the resemblence of PNAC and your enemies facinating however , perhaps that is where your attention should be focused .

1) There are enough for Saddam to ally with , and there could have been a time where the situation would allow such an alliance even with those who had problems with him . Its not a popularity contest so your Nasser point is 0 .

2) Saddam shows intention of alliance as no other in the recent years . Again a reminder of the oil-attempt .

3) Nasser & Saddam are different periods of time why do you even compare ton begin with ?

Not like Saddam . Please , dont bring in peoples like Bashar or Abdullah , they're a joke when it comes down to the issue of Israel .

Fund yes organize no . The relation between the Palestinian resistance and Iraq would become as the Lebanese resistance with Syria .

Whats your point that others love oil to ? Do others have the same context as Israel ? Please your disection of a point that fits within a context has no value whatsoever .

As if Poland has any remote influence on who gets what as does Israel , LMAO . Come now ...

Likud would . And so did the pre-Likudians , Heirut & LEHI . You can say hilarious all you want , but I dont think its funny we have some zionist occupaying Palestine . THAT happened , THAT wasnt hilarious one bit . Israel (and Likud especially) has an expansionist policy without borders untill the reach of the full occupation of Eretz Yisroel . Hey the baptists & evangelists dont disagree , the Messiah only shows up when the peoples of Israel has settled on the complete land is it not ? They dont mind pushing the proces , and neither does Arik and his gang .

And all that is merely geographically ,on short term we would surley see the effords of economical colonization . Surely Bechtel loves to help a hand "rebuilding" Baghdad .

No what you need to do rather is start understanding the difference between what you and your friends consider help to Israel and what Likud & USA consider help to Israel . If they are not the same , witch is obviously so , your friends chit-chat has no relevance whatsoever .

I dont care if the Arik-Wolf-Perle team come up with nuking Iran and Syria to be the best thing for Israel , as far as its being actually good or not for peoples as your friends . We are debating motivation here from their perspective , not yours . Do you think you can manage to distinct the 2 in the future ?

Please dont come up with technological equality , your credibility is dropping with every point you are making that has no relevance whatsoever . Your inane drive to show Israeli personal superiority is a bit too much man .

* everybody came to help Israel , helping doesnt equalize to sending a soldier .
* The motives of peoples doing so is irellevant in any way to the fact that there was assistance .

Hey one likes to get colonized better by his own peoples than by foreigners I would say . Why do you feel the need to point out to OTHERS errors to justify your own ?

 

Nothing Israel on Zionists in USA

1) You dont need to know personal opinions en-gross is accurat enough for the point being made .
2) Yes there are Christian Zionists , for instance Baptists . And lets not forget the last piece of zionist support , capitalism . You dont need any ideology for that one , just the desire to make $ .
3) No indeed the mere existence of Christian-Zionist support doesnt mean that there has been 60 B spent to defend Israel . But how exactly does the fact that one can exist independant of the other disprove the argument that they did spend for Israel ?

Bush is an evangelist . Yes they believe Jews will either convert or die in the end , but that doesnt change their love of an allied land untill then does it ?

They might hang on anyones back , but the person they would supposedly hang on to is evangelist just as well . And Bush' policies ARE pro-zionist they dont seem to be they ARE . That doesnt mean that Bush has to share the zionist idoelogy like Arik , it does mean however that the 2 are best friends and share interests untill that day of the second coming .

I really would want to see you refute the arguments why Iraq was not a war for Israel , instead of trying to show some logical possibilities dealing with independance of the relation between zionism as an ideology or evangelism , or between support for zionism and waging a war . You are aware your points are rather meaningless dont you ?

You dont disprove anything at all .

1) Did I say it has to do with a government being fond of Jews ? No zionist Jews in USA have become such a relevant and influential part of the system that if you want to make a profit out of anything your only way is that of what zionism prefers . I am very well aware everybody does it out of own interest , Jewish zionists are simply best at it and their interests become national interests .

2) The position of todays Jewish-zionists in USA did not exist 50 years ago . Yes European Jews are infamous for being best at all European things , however the obvious natural development of power distribution that follows from such a superiority creates ethnic hositlity with the natives at one point or the other . Austria & Germany remember ? Obviously the feeding ground of such conflicts stand on inequality .

1) You yourself ridiculed the influence of a president , so how would a Jewish president prove anything ?

2) Its pretty dumb within perspective to hold the masses ignorant . Obviously a president from a 2% of the population group gets noticed . But peoples are baboons , maybe Lieberman next time ?

3) There are some suspicious ones u know , lol . Eisenhower , the 2 Roosevelts . How about Truman ? Well at least Abraham was a freemason

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You surely are because I really dont know how u manage to deduct that from my words , but I didnt admit anything of the USA issue you say :

Both democratic and republican parties are zionist . Its just that the democrats would rather go with labor and the republicans with likud thats all .

As for Israeli with hearts , yes there are some . However they are marginal , dont think labor is the answer these ping-pong politics are very laughabale .

Ofcourse your joke however dealt with expulsion of Palestinians . Maybe Palestinians should rather have a zyklon B shower-head-set instead of a suicide-belt , no ? Oh Im just kidding , we could do good enough with some Ak-47 I heard bullits cost 2 shekels so ....

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Rummie is a dummie , anyways Wolf is the Iraq man . And I dont suppose any conspirers dont put words in my mouth please , conspiracies arent necesarry nor are they within human capability .

 

Nothing Israel

First hand experience does not logically lead to know more about zionisty ideology . In the very essence this is completely incorrect , as knowledge can be gained through superior ways while it is not first hand . Secondly , in your special case of zionism where first hand experience means practical experience , this is rather something different than the theoretic knowledge of zionism one can learn through written lecture .

Do you have problems with public discussion ? If you are willing to discuss facts please present facts and present material that backs those facts and present a logical context for those facts to become actual points .

The fact that your existence holds no value in my perspective deals with the fact that I would not have any issues if you as a citizen of Israel would be struck by tewrowrists .

I challenge your questions and answers because I enjoy debate , not because I care for you to be alive . I can seperate matters , unlike you as you proved various times before .

What lies ? What distortion ? Tell me

Unfortunatly not on religious questions dealing with jews , but thats another issue . On Zionists , yes they are much more tolerant than me I would settle for nothing less than the destruction of Israel unless Israel can pay up the damages they have caused for at least since they are a state , to the peoples of Palestine . They would just settle with a piece of shitty land and no tanks in backyard .

Thanks for your email but I would prefer if we could simply continue in here . What issues do you have with public debates ? Oh my I feel another conspiracy theory comin up , lol .

Thanks for showing your social position as an Israeli . Your boredom and lazyness surely goes nicely with the problems your "neighbours" have .

 

France and Germany right about what? There was never a contest as to whether or not Saddam had banned weapons, or was in breach of past resolutions. The debate was over what the best course of action for reprimanding him was.

UNSCR 1441 found Iraq in violation of the Gulf War Cease Fire, and recognized that Iraq was in material breach of the same.

http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/02110803.htm

The whole premise of the original post is fallacious.

 

Stokes - Your rejection is also fallacious

What was found according to 1441 and what the Bush-Blair Company told us are two entirely different things.

:m:,
Tiassa

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1441 was a resoultion that could both be seen as a decleration of war, or just what it said "sevre consequences" which be interprated in anyway. Anyway even the US/UK wanted a second resoultion, to clearify war. Thankfully they didn't get it.

 

Re: Stokes - Your rejection is also fallacious

...the hell? Did you read my post? Your argument makes no sense and it's a giant red herring. Look at what I was responding to:

That's not at all what they insisted, and 1441 shows it. 1441 stated that all nations of the UNSC (unanimous vote, remember) found Iraq in material breach of 687 et al. There is no chance of spinning this to make it seem as though Bush and Blair were the only ones who believed WMD were in Iraq. Everybody did, and everybody said so.

 

Here you go, Stokes

UN Security Council Resolution #1441

Thought you might want to read it.

:m:,
Tiassa

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Pffft, sod it i cant be bothered

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