What more is there to say? It is not illegal. I have a firearms license and licensed hand guns. I don't know who told you that handguns are illegal, because it isn't true. EI_Sparks, very, very nice. I'm going to read through that later tonight, but now I have to run. WellCookedFetus, I also do archery, but it isn't the same as trying to shoot a handgun six times in succession and create only one hole on the target.
wcf, I'd like to practise archery, but there was no archery club locally or in college. The Wilkinstown rifle club is doing some archery, so I'll get around to trying it at some point - but the problem is that archery tends to not only need more room than 10m air rifle, and it's not as safe.
Sure Jerrek, what strength is your bow set to (if it is a adjustable modern type)? By the way what ever happened to caseless ammunition? No one wanted to convert? I hear some civilian rifles use it though? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
A caseless .22 round? Naw, too akward to make, and too inconsistent. Remember, for competitive shooting, ammo is batch matched to the individual barrel at the factory for the top shooters, and those that don't go to the factory are still going to be doing some batch testing - plus each round is anything up to around 30-40 cents each, and we buy them in large batches of several thousand... (several thousand so that we get as much of a specific batch as possible, and it normally lasts for several years - some of the shooters I know have had the same batch of ammunition that they use for international competition for the last decade, and it's used for nothing else - another batch for national competitions, another for club competitions, and another for training...)
Making caseless ammunition would actually be physically cheaper, I was just wondering why army are taking up the stuff.
It's not cheaper to make it to the required standards of consistency and strength. It's used by some armies for a single reason - that a rifle, like the "plastic plank", that uses caseless ammo, can fire at a higher rate of fire because the mechanism doesn't have to eject the spent casing. The reduction in weight is just a side bonus. But for civilian applications, caseless ammo has little in the way of advantages to be honest - and it still costs more to make, especially for smaller calibres (I don't think they even make it for smaller calibres in fact).
It cost more to make because it is not produced in amounts anywhere near as much as standard ammo and also there is limited demand.
And because it's hard to ensure consistent burn in a material that has to also act as a casing, especially for a subsonic round (all target shooting is done subsonically because the super- to sub-sonic transition tends to seriously destabilise the bullet in flight and supersonic rounds are more strongly affected by wind. (Sounds odd, but that's how it works). Besides, who on earth needs a firing rate of 5000rpm+ outside of a battlefield?
I know I've stepped into this kinda late, but by page 4 I realized that people who tend to promote peace tend to get the most violent when someone disagrees. All that was asked was what kind of gun do you prefer or own? If you don't own one, please explain. Why not just say "Because I don't want one?" Or why get into it the first place? I think this thread was originally aimed at (pardon the pun) gun enthusiasts. I own a Remington 22, my pet was an Arisaka sniper rifle. I shoot for one of two basic reasons: 1) for points at the range, or 2) to keep the rifle in working order. Home security is just icing on the cake, because I'm not about to risk my neck for a lousy DVD player. (Come after me or my family, however, and the only thing I can promise you is that it will be quick. I was taught not to waste time when it comes down to neutralizing a threat.) I no longer have the Arisaka. My explanation as to why I would give up this little beauty if it was my pet? Because if I was ever again in the situation where I had to draw down on an intruder, I'd want to use a weapon that wasn't going to go through every wall in my house and maybe kill my neighbor. The 22 may or may not kill an intruder depending on where you hit him or her, but it can make them think twice about whether or not they want to be in my house badly enough. I live in a much nicer neighborhood now than I ever have. It's quite pleasant and I don't miss the drive-by shootings at all. When the police are called to something suspicious looking (people in my neighbor's garage when my neighbor wasn't home), they actually respond, which is a big improvement in and of itself over my previous neighborhoods. If you don't own a gun that's your business. I don't think you're chicken or living in a rosy world where we can all talk out our problems. I don't really care why you don't own a gun. Just accept the fact that I do own one, understand that I know my ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to firearms safety, trust that I'm not going to shoot you, and don't tell me that I'm paranoid or living in fear just because I choose to own a rifle. That's like saying I like tacos and chili just because I have Mexican blood. (FYI, I can't stand most Mexican food, don't speak a word of Spanish, and even when they were popular I wouldn't be caught dead in a lowrider.)
yay the bickering is over! this stuff is actually interesting (to my surprise). Id never even heard of half the stuff thats been mentioned before today, fascinating. So ill try to add something from my small experience with guns. I got to fire an m-16 and some kinda russian machine gun (a.k. something or other), both semiautomatic if i remember right. Sorry, i have no pictures but they looked very intimidating and kicked hard enough to almost knock me over the first time i fired. It was on this day i got it, i mean why people liked guns so much, they are a blast to shoot (no pun intended). i still dont really get handguns tho.
Why does it matter if I die from being shot or stabed im still dead? So why do I care about just gun murder rates? Austrailia, UK, Sweeden, Canada all have a higher chance of you being a victume of violent crime then the United States. --The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland 20% of the United States homicides occur in 4 cities with just 6%of the population: New York, Chicago, Detroit and Washington, DC, each has almost completly banned handguns. In 1976 Washington DC the city's murder rate has risen 134% while the national murder rate has dropped 2%. Guess what kind of legislation was passed in 76? In 1977 Canada got gun control, the murder rate failed to decline, but armed robbery and burglary, violent crime increased.
There's a neat essay I came across a while ago, it might be relevant here: What Competitive Shooters Learn by Michèle K. Makucevich Guns. An emotionally charged word with connotations that vary from Norman Rockwell-like images of a man and his hunting hound to gang clad teenagers and drive-by shootings. As political candidates and the media focus on firearms issues and school shootings capture the national headlines, gun-control is often called upon to supplant self-control in the public agenda. And yet, my own view of firearms is, perhaps, very different from the norm. As a professional educator and a volunteer rifle coach for the past 16 years, I am frequently asked to, at best explain, at worst, defend, my involvement with guns and youth shooting. Often, when speaking with the media about the accomplishments of my athletes, I am confronted with politically based questions pertaining to legislation rather than sport. Unfortunately, it is no longer possible to separate the two. So, I would like to share a few of the many lessons that the shooting sports, particularly competitive shooting, impart. Perseverance. Unlike many sports which are more dependent on physical stature or beauty, shooting is something anyone who is committed to improvement can excel at. Shooting athletes learn to continue trying even when faced with difficult challenges. Part of learning perseverance, shooting athletes learn Patience. With the tremendous effect the wind has on a .22 bullet at 100 yards, or even 50 meters, competitive marksmen learn to anticipate and correct for the wind's effect, and, when necessary, to wait for the return of their condition. Even when not compensating for the movement of the bullet due to wind, the competitive shooter must discipline herself to execute the shot only when her hold and sight picture are nearly perfect. Sometimes this requires taking several "holds", thus, the shooter learns not only patience, but Self Discipline. Like any worthwhile goal, shooting, sometimes can take on the aspect of work. Practicing for hours each week with sore wrists and aching backs can wear on even the most enthusiastic competitor when the results seem slow in coming. Once again, shooting teaches the lesson that hard work, over time, will be rewarded. Those with the self-discipline to stick it out will prevail. Problem Solving is a critical part of growing up and becoming more self-sufficient. Because of its individual nature, even beginning shooters learn to make decisions based on their performance and match conditions. The way we view setbacks is important. Optimists attribute failure to something they can change rather than to something beyond their control. Shooting teaches Optimism. the competitive shooter searches for answers instead of dwelling on problems. Junior shooters, then, feel more in control of their lives. They are better equipped to handle obstacles and, quite possibly, may be more successful in their future endeavors. A large part of Optimism is to be positive in one's approach to the individual performance. As a coach, I have learned that the most successful athletes will focus on performance over score. While those who focus on score can be easily rattled by loss of points and are more subject to losing additional points, those who effectively concentrate on body control will not be flustered by an errant shot, but, instead, will analyze and correct for it. I remember my coach telling me, "don't worry about the score, it will take care of itself. Concentrate on performance." Now that has become my mantra with my own pupils. Even more important, perhaps, has been the effect that that simple idea has had on the various aspects of my life. As a teacher, I use the idea every day. Rather than concentrating solely on outcome, I have learned to recognize the effort and adherence to prescribed procedures when facing a difficult task. On the range I have learned to "let the bad shot go." Yes, I analyze what went wrong. Yes, I develop a plan to prevent it form happening again. But, I have learned to accept my errors, do my best to correct them, and not let them dictate my future. Competitive shooters learn that once the shot is down range, there is nothing you can do to change it. No amount of self-reproach will bring that 7 back, however, analysis and self-discipline will prevent it from happening again. Concentration, one's ability to focus, and attention span, the length of time that one can devote attention exclusively to one subject, are both learned skills. Very few activities force one to unite mind and body in such an exacting way as shooting. When parents of young children (ten or eleven years old) ask me what can be gained from participation in the shooting sports, I frequently ask them, "how would you like to see your child hold still for two hours?" Of course, competitive shooting is about far more than merely holding still, but the point is, the ability to concentrate and focus generally has the effect of improving school grades as well. It is a learned skill. Confidence, like concentration, is learned. Success builds upon success. For the competitive marksman, the feeling gained by mastering oneself and "beating that target" is a stepping stone to a confidence that "I can succeed in other areas as well." After shooting offhand, algebra and term papers are not so scary. Like success in shooting, they must be approached with a positive attitude. And, also like shooting, they both have a basic structure that need be adhered to, though, there is some room for adjusting to fit the individual. My shooters learn Responsibility as well. Certainly they gain this from a Safety standpoint, but they also gain this from a demand for Personal Accountability. When they shoot a personal best, they shot it. I may have been there to cheer them and put them in solid positions. I may have planned their training schedules and seen to it that they had the best equipment that they, or the club could afford. But, ultimately, they pulled the trigger. Conversely, when they have a poor performance, I am not the culprit. They shot the match. Maybe they went to a party the night before and didn't get adequate sleep. Maybe they tried making position changes in the middle of the competition. Maybe they just had a bad day. But, ultimately, they pulled the trigger. Shooters are held responsible for every shot they fire. There are, of course, more lessons one learns from shooting. I honestly believe that my own involvement in the sport has helped me to become much more focused. I have born witness to the maturation of numerous youngsters through their involvement in the sport. I'm proud to say that I have had some hand in coaching a number of collegiate All Americans, some of whom, were it not for the scholarships they received, would never have attended college. When some of my teaching colleagues invariably ask, "why do you promote shooting?" and "as a mother, how can you support guns?" My response is quite simple, "how can I not?" As a mother, how wonderful that I have a sport that both of my children (a boy and a girl) can compete in equally. How unusual to find a sport that we can share as a family on a local, regional and national level. How fortunate I am to have a tool for teaching them perseverance, patience, self-discipline, problem solving, optimism, concentration, confidence, responsibility, and personal accountability. As an educator, I have the opportunity, every day, to see how many of these life's lessons are sadly lacking in our youth. While it is unfortunate that the issues of gun control have caused the tools of my sport to be at the center of a maelstrom of controversy, the rifles used by myself and my athletes are no different to us than a bat to a baseball player, a racket to a tennis player, or a javelin to a track and field athlete. The focus of shooting is the ultimate control of mind over body, and, as such, it is one of the least violent of any sports. You don't tackle, check, punch or grab your opponent. Because it is a non-contact sport, it has an unequaled safety record. There are no injuries. In this time when so much attention is being focused on respecting and recognizing differences, when politicians and school boards call for us all to find beauty in diversity, I find it disheartening and, even hypocritical, that such a cry does not extend to sport. I celebrate the differences that hold my sport separate from the rest. Shooting is the most egalitarian of all sports, men and women compete on equal terms. Our National Shooting Champions have ranged in age from 15 to their 70's. It is both a summer and winter sport in the Olympic Games. And, uniquely, it affords both individual and team events. The main reason I coach and continue to compete, however, is that shooting, as both a mental and physical discipline, fosters those attributes that I want my children to share and that I continue nurturing in myself. About the author: A member of the National Rifle Association's National Coach Development Staff since its inception in 1994, Michèle Makucevich is currently the Civilian Marksmanship Program's Rhode Island State Junior Director. Makucevich is a national record holder in both smallbore and long range rifle, a past Collegiate National Champion in air rifle, and the head coach for the Newport Rifle Club. She has been competing and coaching since 1985 and has represented the US in international competition as a member of the US Randle Team. She was recognized by the National Shooting Sports Foundation as the 1998 USA Shooting National Coach of the Year.
thnx for the stats thaug (mind you 1977 was a long time ago), do you have any links? id like to look into your claims further.
buffys, You saw from my photos how much gear you need to have for rifle shooting? Pistol shooting's gear is pretty much you, the pistol, ear defenders, and maybe shooting glasses. One case. As opposed to the sixty to ninety pounds of gear you have to lug about for rifle shooting. Plus, the box is a lot less akward. I kid you not, every competition needs two cases for me - one is five feet long and holds the rifle, the other is my kit bag - 5 feet by two-and-a-half feet by two feet, packed solid with gear, and weighing between 60 and 90 pounds depending on the event. If you could have pistols in Ireland (well, you can in the North, but not in the Republic Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ), I'd be shooting with them and my back would be happier! (And you ought to see the looks you get when you go to hire a car and show up with a rifle case because you're getting the car to go to a rifle competition and the case has to fit Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! )
Oh it's not even this. A handgun, being more compact, is more manuverable. I guess it comes down to aestetics. I like handguns just for the feel of the weight in my hand. I'm more conscious of a handgun, more in control.
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I dunno Xev, I always had the opposite reaction - I can get behind a rifle a lot better than I can with a pistol on the few occasions I've gotten to shoot them: .22 standard pistol: Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
.177 10m Air pistol: Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! (Oh, so little gear to have to carry! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! *sigh* )
EI_Sparks, hmmm ... i hadn't considered the amount of gear required in a competition environment, good point. Tho, in a way, that is exactly what concerns me about hand guns. their ease of use and ability to be concealed is why i see them as sooooo much more dangerous to society as a whole. It seems like a high price to pay just to have less gear to lug around. Aside from people like yourself in competition, the only people i can see benefiting by having a concealable firearm are criminals. buff
