As it says on the tin, if you are now a non believer how did you lose your faith? One incident? A gradual decline? Or a specific series of events? Also if you kept your faith despite set backs how did that happen. Atheists and theists welcome. I will start off 1976 - I am 9 watching daytime science programme (I'm ill in hospital) Discover ancient cave paintings, tools. Were Adam and Eve cave men? 1980- Irpinia earth quake, over 2000 dead including kids in an orphanage and church goers. Why would god kill his own? 1982 - Discovered the full extent of other religions. Say mine is wrong? Say they are all wrong? 1990- Read the OT. Conclusion, flawed, man made and nothing to do with a creator. Atheist.
I've ended up more or less a churchgoing agnostic. For me it was living in the Persian Gulf in the 1980s and being exposed to Islam, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and Hinduism that made me think how absurd it is for any one religion to claim a monopoly on religious truth. I was struck by the common features. Anyone who has been to a Buddhist temple in Thailand will know how the sense of calm and meditative peace is very similar to that in an English Cathedral or monastery. All of them try to get people to think beyond material things, practice self-discipline, meditate, take care of those around us etc. For me it remains an open question whether all of these religions are striving after a perception of divinity, (seeing through a glass darkly, as St. Paul has it), or whether all are mere products of common human psychology. I sometimes wonder if it even matters which. We had to decide whether to bring up our son as Christian or not and decided it was better to do so, to give him insight into his own culture. (My mother, an English teacher, used to lament the time she had to waste, in her later years, filling in gaps in the religious knowledge of her students, which the writers whose works they were studying would have taken for granted.) Christianity suffuses our lives still, even those who do not believe, through our traditions and culture and even the buildings. As I've grown older I myself have come to value increasingly the role of the church in providing tradition, community, a sense of belonging, not just with others today but those in the past too, and not least the chance once a week to leave aside the cares of daily life and think about the messages of the gospels etc. Ritual, ceremony and music can be important to getting into the right frame of mind, so I see the value in those. As a choral singer, church music is a big part of the singing repertoire too, so having some understanding of and affinity with Christianity is quite important. So I rather like civilised, thoughtful and moderate expressions of religion, even if I do not believe it all literally.
I was raised by church-going Catholic parents. Once my sibs and I were old enough, my mother returned to school to get a Bachelors in Religious Studies. I attended catechism until I was about 12 or so. I have had 5 of the seven sacraments*: baptism, communion, confirmation, confession, marriage. (*This from my wife because what do I know of these things?). The point is, I have come by my religion honestly, and been given every chance to be a good believer. I don't ever remember believing in God of my own accord. I may have said the words but I was doing so because that's what I was led to do. The most spiritual thing I can think I ever did on my own was at funerals thinking to myself "Gee God, why'd he/she have to die?" I never prayed. By the time I was sixteen, I was old enough to start externalizing my own beliefs in the presence of my parents, when told them I would no longer be attending church on Sundays. My next encounter with religion involved attending a local United church with friends. It was very unconventional. The pastor was a real folksy, almost hippie-type, dressing in flowing white pajamas and playing guitar and having parties at his house. It was a very enjoyable community-oriented experience. We became friends and the pastor ultimately married us. I very begrudgingly "allowed God to come to our wedding as long as he hid in the shadows and kept his mouth shut". Ultimately, it ended badly, when the pastor and his wife got sloppy and propositioned the wrong people - my wife and I - who were only barely part of the Inner Circle. We didn't know anything about the sex harem they had been fostering together - him sleeping with at last a half dozen of his flock aboard his sailboat (covertly known as The Love Boat). We accidentally spoke to the wrong people about it, blowing it wide open and creating a huge scandal which resulted in at least one cuckolded husband taking a bat to the pastor's face, the pastor being defrocked and going to prison, and the suicide of one of the female victims. So that was exciting. (No, this did not infleunce my sentiments about God and religion. This happened in my thirties, by which time I had been a conscious, independent thinker for half my life already. Besides, one bad apple, etc...)
I was raised in a church-going Methodist household. I went to Sunday school every week. I started having questions fairly young. I remember being around 6 years old and asking my mom, "How do we know there is a God?" She told me that was something I was going to have to decide for myself. And then she explained the terms agnostic & atheist to me. As well as telling me that there are other religions in the world. In my mid 20's (1980s) I embarked on a couple of years of Bible study. I came to the conclusion that the entire premise of Jesus's mission seemed bogus. Jesus came to "reconcile" man's relationship to God. A relationship that had been derailed due to a "rebellion" in the garden of Eden. (Romans 5:12 -15). There was no anger at God, or disillusionment, or whatever. Just actual reading/analyzing of the material and arriving at the conclusion that we might as well be discussing Lord of the Rings as for the Bible's relationship to reality.
Wow, That escalated quickly! I was an alter boy and choir boy in the 1970s and also a cub (boy scout) which was all connected to the school, parish and church. We all knew each other, did panto, harvest festival, church fête, sports day and day trips in summer. We never talked about god though, the parents talked about the kids and we (the kids) were just kids. Midnight mass at xmas was beautiful, magical. Some bad points but being a catholic child in the 70s, I think I had it ok. Things did not go that way elsewhere in the catholic community for children my age in that decade,or other decades. Anyway I do not want to derail my own thread. My point is I am glad I rejected it on purely intellectual grounds not bad experiences.
I don't see religion and faith as the same thing. You can have faith and not be religious. You can also be religious and not have faith. Anyone can have faith, even non-believers, even "atheists". For myself, I never see myself as losing anything. All I see is transitioning or evolving from one state of being to the next. Whatever I once was or once believed is still there. It's just that it no longer has any relevance or interest to me at the present moment unless I deem otherwise at some other moment as I feel it is necessary. There are so many incidents that have helped shape me into what I am today, but I only view them as stepping stones or lessons.
Very true. Many of my friends express this sentiment. They have their personal faith, but actively reject the ritualized, codified "We are the wise priests and we tell you unwashed masses where and when to worship" mentality of organized religion. Some of them ask the simplel question: "If God is everywher and all-knowing, why can he onlny hear me in a church on Sundays?" (There are obvious apologistic rebuttals to this, but the point is still made.)
I grew up in a smallish city in the US South. Culturally, in those days, "everyone" was religious. It was a quiet religiosity and not "evangelical". We went to the Methodist church. I was never a "believer". I had to go to Sunday School until I was about 15. As a child I suppose you could use the word "believer" to include anything. When I was 4 and I was being read a story about Aladdin and his flying carpet, or a story about Santa or stories from the Children's Bible, I took them all in. I learned all the children's biblical stories. Beyond that age, when I realized that there was no flying carpet, I also understood that the religious tales were also not true. I never had any bad experience while at church (mainly Sunday School). These were the same people I went to school with and for many parents, there was a bonding socially with the people they knew from Church. At 13, after the first "class" leading to Communion I told my mother that I wouldn't be participating in that. I could realize the "cult like" nature by that point and she said fine, I must be too young. At age 15, I said that I didn't want to go to Sunday School anymore (after trying that unsuccessfully a year earlier) she said, I guess this isn't something that you can force anyone to do and maybe you'll take it up after college, and she said I could quit going. That's it for me. There was no "losing" of my religion. I never was religious. In those days it would have been "rude" to use terms like atheist but if anyone had been nosey enough to ask me about religion I would have just said "I'm not religious" and left it at that unless they pressed. I never heard religion mentioned among my peers throughout high school and college. I now live in Seattle, there are churches here but I don't know anyone who goes to them or who considers themselves to be religious. In other parts of the country it would be different of course. As a kid, I understood the calmness of the chapel with the music, tall ceilings, stained glass windows. I understood that it was OK to take part of a day to reflect, be part of a community that would trying to do good things, etc. It's good to get outside of yourself. You don't need church for that or to concoct a God and all the mythology that goes with that, IMO. I get that some people get more out of that than I do. It doesn't rub everyone the wrong way. I've very independent in general and in my thinking. I was almost immune to peer pressure as a teen so this wasn't for me at all but for those who can get past that and can embrace the "tradition", I get it. I've also had a comparative religions course in summer school in college and I have briefly read both the OT and the NT, so I'm not unaware of the Bible nor of other religions. I'm aware of Marxism yet I'm not a "believer"Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I used the title in a lame attempt to tip my hat to REM. What I am really asking is Do you think there is a god out there pulling the strings? Or a god just out there who "caused" the universe and is now watching us get on with it? Or nothing? Just us and the universe? If it's the "nothing but us" (like me) option, what happened in your mind to reject the concept of god?
In my cause, it's number 3 but nothing happened or nothing has to happen for someone to reject the concept of god. Something would have to happen for that to even enter my mind. I know people don't like the silly (to them) examples but does something need to happen before I reject Aladdin and his flying carpet? No, it wouldn't occur to me to take the story seriously unless I was a child. The concept of "God" is so obviously man constructed that nothing needs to "happen" to not take that concept seriously. Some people like to say that if God didn't make the Universe, who did? As if nothing could exist unless "someone" made it. If you turn it around and then say, who made God? They say, God was always here. OK, then maybe the Universe was always here? At that point they'll say but what came before the Universe? It had to be something. Ask them, what came before God, it had to be something but, no, in that case they don't require that. It's silly isn't it? "We" need a man-like god to "create" the world. I suppose dogs need a dog like god to create the Universe? The answer is, we need a man-like god just so that we can comprehend. We know how sedimentary rocks form and it doesn't require God but when we don't know something, it must be God? Agains, with this level of "logic" I don't think the natural state is that God is in our head and there must be a reason that we got it out of our head. It never would be in our head unless our parents put it in our head. In this day and age, when you see a mountain, your first thought wouldn't be "I wonder who made this", would it?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
No, but I believe there is a constant, never-ending pulling and pushing throughout all aspects of the Universe known as the "Principle of Rhythm". No, but I also believe that every cause has its corresponding effect and every effect has its corresponding cause known as the "Principle of Cause and Effect". Not even just us and the Universe, but just Universe and only Universe. However, I believe that Universe has a consciousnesses, a Universal consciousness, and everything else throughout the Universe is an equal aspect of the Universe (holographic Universe). I guess it was more of a gradual process. There's really no definitive date. I would say probably sometime around 1990 I no longer accepted the common "religious" notion of what god is. I wouldn't say I rejected the concept but rather set it aside as something that no longer applies to me as if it were a lesson that I no longer needed to learn. In other words, I moved beyond that in a way that a child moves beyond playing with toys. I guess it was just through many years of self-analysis, contemplation, observation, etc. I slowly began to realize how dogmatic and institutionalized religions are. At one point I became fascinated with the "New Age" beliefs, but then I quickly realized they are no different than other dogmatic religions. Now, I just live my life in any way I choose that vibe with me. I'm just here for the ride, I'm just here for the show, I'm just passing through.
The concept of god in general is a different issue than religion. If a god created the universe, then you are stuck with the question of where did god come from. You've just moved the goalpost. I don't know that we will ever be able to answer questions about "outside the universe", if there is such a place/thing. My suspicion is that the universe has always been here in some form or another. As to ZPN's point of a conscious universe. I have wondered about that too. I mean, I am conscious and I am a small part of the universe. Joseph Campbell tells us that heliotropism in plants is a form of consciousness. Granted, he's not a scientist. But it's an interesting idea. Not sure how you could test it. Sort of like ZPN, as long as I am here I might as well enjoy the ride. And, since we are all on this bus together, we might as well try to get along.
Gradual decline, although the "religion" was very loose to begin with in terms of formal structure. Growing up, I got the sense that our parents took us to any particular church (and there were several over the years) to primarily integrate us socially into the local community. And since they had no secular philosophy as an alternative, to instill some sense of "what was going on" in terms of moral values and life purpose. Those environments also encouraged development of public speaking skills, music skills, and other youth-oriented competency and discipline. Since it was mostly for the enculturation aspects, there wasn't a deeply entrenched system for my brother and I to incrementally lose over time. Curiously, I originally believed in evolution in grade school, then got exposed to skepticism about it after that, then switched back when the skepticism shifted to targeting genuinely bogus matters. Disillusionment ensued later as I noticed atheists or active non-theists throwing off "traditional bonds" simply to parrot new sets of intellectual platitudes (very little originality of their own). They fastened other fashionable chains to themselves in militant moral, political, humanities and ideological ventures in general. Thus, I didn't see much point in sporting a new label or adhering to one very well (i.e., still a member of general robot-hood, no matter what). But in terms of epistemological orientation, I suppose I'm roughly equivalent to an agnostic (that's with respect to suspended belief about claims of ultimate knowledge in general, not just gods). In practice though, my outward behavior and communication is probably that of one who expects either extinctivism at death or some four-dimensionalism situation of still hanging around temporally from vague fetal awareness to the last state before death, but no further cognitive events after the latter termination point of consciousness. That is, preparation wise (while not excluding the possibility), I don't expect there being anything at a prior-in-rank or reality-generating level (revised supernatural) that's literally storing information about me to download into a new body (afterlife in a different simulated world). Or pass that information on with a subconscious status in the course of reincarnation, etc. Ideally, literal nothingness or "absence of everything" is probably the best prospect. A legit "heaven" devoid of both suffering/need and eventually boring pleasure. But thereby perhaps too good to be true. (The vigilant pessimist always on guard for malicious surprise!) _
This is why my wife and I were dragged back to the church by a friend. It was a great way to make lots of friends and community. United is very open and laid back. This one especially - it was really more singing songs with the minister on acoustic guitar and not so much about God-stuff. I obly felt a little bit like fraud. I mean, nobody ever actually asked me if I believe in The Big Guy;s existence, and I felt no obligation to opine on the matter. (And really, it's much more about Jesus, which I can live with. He's just a guy with some big ideas about how to love they neighbour*.) *I mean, it's good to love thy neighbour ... just don't Love They Neighbour, if you know what I mean**. ** And if you don't, see post 3.
Yah. Do-gooderism in general has always been an attractive domain for opportunists to exploit. Whether the scammers are disguised as peace-loving hippies, the old-fashioned Elmer Gantry types, or just vintage intellectuals shouting thunder and social revelation from a soapbox about cultural hegemony and privileged population groups. _
To be clear, I don't hold it against the organization or the industry. It ended badly; it wasn't all bad. I'd put it down as an aberration, not a symptom of a systemic disease. The social aspect was actually quite enjoyable for the most part.
Yeah I think I went from Christian to having doubts, to doubtful, rejection and realization I was now an atheist. A shocker. After a few months I then started to resent religion and religious people. Similar to losing a loved one, stages of grief? Things went out of control when I joined youtube in 2007, I went on to find Buddy Rich, clips of him. Absolutely no intention of looking for atheist channels, science sites or anything, just music. Then it happened. I posted, "Buddy Rich is god." I got a reply, "Buddy Rich is not god, god made him." That was it, I think I became a "militant" atheist in that moment! Good thing is a learned an awful lot about the Bible, The Theory of Evolution, Abiogenesis, Biblical history and textual criticism. I still study these. I still jump on creationist garbage when I see it.
I'm not sure that I ever had it. So, losing it seems to make a point that might not exist. The more I studied, the more I became indifferent to the words in the bible. and then when in the army, we organized a bible study group and then our chaplain was replace by a red necked red faced southern baptist who thought that "bible study" meant that he would stand at the podium and thunder at us. I grew weary of his insanity and challenged him on his use of the personal pronoun for GOD (who needs no personal pronoun) " I noticed that you constantly refer to GOD as he, him, his, etc and GOD is immortal, was here at the beginning and will ever be so and he only had the one child---Jesus ok so, what did he do the rest of the time? beat off? Whereupon, the chaplain huffed hisself up and, red in the face, and with spittle flying out of his mouth screamed "Out of my church you sacrilegious son of a bitch!!!!!!" Ok so the bible study group became the scrabble group and the bible thing was over ok so I didn't so much lose my religion(if I ever had any) but it was shattered by a red necked red faced southern baptist charlatan who claimed to have faith, but had none.
