Computers Are Incapable Of Creatively Writing Music

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by Steve Klinko, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Oh really? Which part of mathematical terminology are you addressing ? Mathematical or Terminology?

    Are you proposing that neurons do not function in accordance with the physical mathematics of neural activities?

    Are you proposing that consciousness is separate from the physical mathematics of neural activities.

    If consciousness is separate from the physical mathematics of neural activities it should be identifiable as different from the mathematics of neural activity and become available for measurement by itself, no?

    If consciousness is immeasurable, then why are you wasting your time?

    What is the difference between being associated with and being emergent from?
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That depends purely on the area of focus. If, as Roger Penrose suspects, certain quantum mechanics are involved in the emergence of consciousness and Tegmark suspects that certain patterns may be intrinsically conscious, you are telling them they are wasting their time or are snake-oil salesmen? Wow!

    How about the possibility that certain quantum patterns are conscious in some semi-intelligent self-referential mathematical manner? You feel qualified to peer review their papers or submit your paper for their peer review?

    If multi-nucleic single celled organisms like the brainless slime mold exhibits semi-intelligent behaviors, that does not give you a moment's pause?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    I have asked informed questions:
    Question 1: Please explain it in a simplified manner that people will actually understand? This informed by the unintelligible mess it currently is.
    Question 2: Please show the evidence that supports it? This is informed by the lack of evidence evident on your website.
    Question 3: On the matter of the experiment you claim to have set up, how do you think it proves what you think it sets out to prove? This is informed by the lack of such explanation and detail on your website.

    If you feel you are unable to improve on what you wrote in your website with regard people understanding it (question 1), at least have the decency to answer questions 2 and 3. Can you do that? Or are you going to stick to the trollish behaviour of "it's all in my website!" and provide nothing else here?
    Look, if you're not prepared to paraphrase, simplify, or explain what you wrote on your website, as has been asked, then accept that you're nothing but a troll, and have the decency to piss off.
     
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  7. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    Mathematics has nothing to do with Consciousness.

    What is the Physical mathematics of Neural Activities?

    Consciousness is separate but Correlated with Neural Activities and it is not currently measurable by any known method.

    Consciousness is not Immeasurable, Science just does not know how to measure it yet.

    "Associated With" or more properly "Correlated With" is a different concept than "Emergent From". Consciousness does not need to "Emerge From Neural Activity to be Correlated with Neural Activity.
     
  8. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    There is no chain of Logic that gets you to Patterns of anything being intrinsically Conscious. This is pure Speculation. But this is ok, because that is all we can do right now. Nothing is a waste of time, but I wouldn't waste my time in that direction.

    I have studied Quantum Mechanics because it also fits in with my Speculations with regard to the Inter Mind Connection Perspective. These Scientists may be experts in their fields but they are making Claims about Consciousness which is outside of their fields of expertise. There are no Experts on Consciousness. They can write all kinds of QM equations but they cannot make that conceptual Logical Link to Consciousness. It is all simply a Speculation and a Hope.

    Don't understand what you are driving at with this. This probably just bolsters up my Connection Perspective.

    Can you point me to some posts in your 97 page (I think that was the number) thread that explains how Redness is the result of Neural Activity or Patterns of Neural Activity?
     
  9. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    435
    Haaahhhhh! You have been calling me a Troll on my own thread. That's pretty Incoherent thinking. Sticks and stones may break my bones but Insults will never hurt me. Be polite and maybe, only maybe, I'll reply to a question from you ever again.
     
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Haha

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    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  11. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Don't bother. You haven't provided a coherent answer yet.
     
  12. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    Ask a Coherent question and you will get a Coherent answer.
     
  13. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Far from it. If you continue to post but with no actual content, as you do, and if you continue to fail to support your claims, as you do, and if you continue to avoid answering any questions, as you do... that is trolling, whether it is a thread you started or not. But note that it is not your thread, but merely a thread that you began. The actual thread belongs to the site, and to the community here.
    If you find the truth insulting, so be it.
    I honestly could no longer care less. You've had plenty of chances to show that you had some decency and weren't just a troll. Oops, you failed. You may even have had something interesting to say, but you hide it behind a desire for traffic to your website, and trollish behaviour. So maybe, just maybe, if you can be bothered to drop the act, provide the explanations requested, and stop being a douchebag and troll, I'll bother to engage with you again. But I'm not betting even a penny on it.
    While that's probably true of most people, given what you consider to be examples of incoherency, I'm not sure it's quite true of you. If you don't want to answer something you'll just continue to claim the question is incoherent. Which for you perhaps it might well be.

    Be seeing you.
     
  14. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    See you later Physicalist Gator.
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Mathematics is guiding order in physics. Thought is an emergent result of mathematical neural complexity, Neural patterns
    What are the physical mathematics of an electrical network? IMO, these systems have some common denominators.
    Consciousness is an emergent property from neural activity which is separate and above the properties of the neurons themselves. And yes, of course it is correlated to neurons. It stems from neural patterns and activities.
    Exactly! And if it is measurable it must have measurable properties, a pattern.
    Consciousness emerges from neural activity patterns. It is an emergent property which becomes an independent state of self-awareness . (Descartes brain in a vat)
    Consciousness emerges from neural excitation. Experiential Self-Awareness is an evolved separate conscious property of neural excitation in the brain. If it was not physical in origin it would not be measurable, no?

    Just as the eye is an evolved light sensitive patch, vision is an evolved cognitive translative ability of the brain . (see microtubule thread)

    According to Anil Seth, the brain is a prediction engine. It can only process what it "knows" (memory) and believes exists. The brain projects an expected reality and correlates it with incoming sensory data. He calls it a "controlled hallucination". When something goes wrong the brain may create "uncontrolled hallucinations" and is unable to produce a coherent self-aware experience.

    I think we are not that far apart. Perhaps it is a question of hierarchical order of emergence, a "what came first" question , Consciousness or Self-aware Consciousness?
    When does consciousness begin, when does it become self-aware?

    Is a Paramecium conscious or self-aware? It's cilia respond to kinetic perturbation. At what stage does "reactive" self-referential sensory response become "actively directed" self-aware sensory response? Choice!

    When self-aware consciousness allows for choice of responses (intelligence), don't we call that Free Will?
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  16. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    I realized early on in my studies that saying Consciousness is this or Consciousness is that, is not very productive because the term Consciousness is so vague. So as you know, I like to concentrate on Conscious Experiences. When you stop thinking about Consciousness abstractly and pick a particular aspect of Consciousness, the whole Emergence Speculation seems to hit a huge Brick Wall. So if there is an Anil Seth writing that can tell me how Neural Activity or Patterns of Neurons can produce the Experience of Redness then I'll take more notice of his writings and lectures.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I keep it simple. My consciousness is not present when I am not present. The self-awareness of "I" is a product of my brain.
    "I think, therefore I am" as opposed to "I think not, therefore I am not"

    Under anesthesia, your body is there, but YOU are not.
     
  18. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    The Body is there but the Connection to Consciousness is blocked by the anesthesia. You have no idea what the subject is Experiencing during that time. After coming out of the anesthesia the subject will not remember because memory is in the Physical Mind (Brain) and not in the Conscious Mind. The subject became pure timeless Conscious Experience while under anesthesia. The "Connection Perspective" is just as valid a Model for explaining Anesthesia as is the "It has to be in the Neurons Perspective". If Science could directly Measure the presence of Consciousness then maybe we could solve which Perspective is correct. But Science can only Measure the Neural Activity and must rely on anecdotal reports from subjects. Anecdotal reports are never very accurate and not very Scientific.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yes I do.
    The subject experiences Nothing , Nothing at all. (Anil Seth, Hameroff).
    And several (4) times personally (un)experienced by write4u during four heart ablations.
     
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    No such animal
    Is a brain

    Any more pearls of wisdom?

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  21. Steve Klinko Registered Senior Member

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    You don't know that and they don't know that. Without any way to Measure Consciousness, they can only Speculate that.
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,069
    What do you mean "without any way to measure"?
    Are we talking measurable physics or immeasurable spirits? If we are talking physics there will be a way to measure eventually, either directly from the physics of brain pattern measurements, or indirectly where brain pattern measurements diverge from the physics.
    All mainstream science was once speculative. It's called hypothesis.

    If there is no brain pattern at all the brain is dead and unable to consciously process any information.
    Eternal anesthesia......total oblivion......nothing......nothing at all. Even if homeostasis can be maintained, the "person" exist only as an object.

    We do not need to speculate IF consciousness exists and IF it is an emergent result of brain function. Their existence and origin are axiomatic "hard facts". We have just begun to map the patterns, give it time and in the mean time consider all possible aspects of what we do know and what might yield the most promising direction of inquiry.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  23. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have a anatomical diagram of this Physical Mind?

    Can you post said anatomical diagram of this Physical Mind please?

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