Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have a reference?
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Microtubules in neurons as information carriers
    Erik W. Dent, PhD

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    1 and Peter W. Baas, PhD3
    IMO, that should read; "serving as short mobile........?"
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3979999/
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    @ Bells.
    I owe you an apology. You were correct to call out my "error" (not an intentional act) in regards to the quoted passage where I inserted a "clarification" in error.
    The word extending misled me into believing that they meant the microtubules extending from the axon, but they were talking about the diseased "tau fibers" extending from the axon, not the microtubules or the tau tangles. My oversight. Sorry for my error.

    p.s. the tau tangles are at the bottom as I properly identified them.
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Just an example.
    So is urea. But claiming "consciousness is found in urea" would be equally misguided.
    And an ultrasuperior, super spectacular fantastical expert at that!
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No doubt. But what does urea do?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea

    The difference, IMO lies in the evolved functionality. Microtubules are expert in information processing.
    I agree......

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    It seems that evolution and natural selection has come up with this incredible little "information processing polymer" a long time ago and it has had a few billion years to refine and network its role in all of Eukaryotic organisms. This is not trivial.

    IMHO, of all the possible candidates for a possible emergent consciousness, microtubules must rank high due to their demonstrated ability for information processing.

    The concept is actually just a refinement of the notion that neural networks give rise to emergent consciousness.

    The chemical machine that does most of the work in a neural network is the microtubule. Can billions of networked microtubules give rise to an emergent consciousness? No one has yet put forth a fatal flaw in the concept, AFAIK.

    And ORCH OR remains a possible, albeit unproven framework that suggests a possible emergent form of consciousness, with the introduction of a threshold function which creates an experiential event. This is not necessarily woo and it is certainly too early to call it that.
     
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  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I just remembered the wonderful closing mechanism in the leaves of the Venus fly-trap. This trigger mechanism is dependent on cilia and of course cilia consist of microtubules.
    Seems the Venus fly trap is the superior "mouse trap" with a built-in '"failsafe" mechanism.

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    Note the treshold function!
    https://www.flytrapcare.com/how-venus-fly-traps-work

    and this
    https://carnivorousplantresource.com/the-cilia-of-the-venus-flytrap/
     
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  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Continuing the quest.

    The Evolution of the Flagellum, And the Climbing of "Mt. Improbable "
    Sean D. Pitman, M.D.
    © May 2006
    Last Updated: August 2010

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    The evolution of the flagella.

    The "Little" Steps Up the Mountain .

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    http://www.detectingdesign.com/flagellum.html#Eukaryotic

    Wow, this is a very interesting site. And from initial reading, a very objective look at the evolutionatry history of dynamic bio-chemical structures such as cilia and flagella.
     
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  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Function of Microtubules

    Cell Movement
    https://biologydictionary.net/microtubule/


    Our dear friend the slime mold crawls by contraction and expansion. AKA, "pseudopodia".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudopodia

    How does a slime mold "know" when to start walking in search of food?
    It is a chemical reaction of course, but so is hunger in humans and that causes us to go shopping for food, just like a slime mold, with the exception of wearing boots......

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  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And a presentation by a nuclear physicist.

    With an example of chemical mutation.





    And this "Introduction to Quantum Biology" touches on many of the previously presented ideas and hypotheses from a quantum perspective. Cool stuff!
     
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  13. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    All this reminds me rather of Flanders and Swann's "Wompom" song.
     
  14. globali Registered Senior Member

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    In medicine there are several agents that interfere with microtubules in several various ways. No cognitive effects (or side-effects) are noted whatsoever (with any of the classes).
    How do you explain this fact??

    To me this is a straight up disproof of your arguments. Prove me wrong
     
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  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You underestimate the versatility of microtubule functions. Not all microtubules have the same functions. For instance, microtubular inhibitors can stop run-away cell division such as in cancer.
    https://www.goodrx.com/microtubule-inhibitors
    You overlook that microtubules have many functions and that only the microtubules in the brain are involved in "thinking", and even here not all microtubules are involved in conscious thinking.

    Anesthesia targets a specific kind of microtubules in the brain and renders a person temporarily into an unconscious object. However there are billions of other brain microtubules which continue to regulate the subconscious maintenance of organ functions (interoception). Anesthesia does not affect their function. If it did, you'd die.

    Visualize a "breaker panel" and you switch off the breaker to you television. Your television goes dead but it only affects that specific circuit and leaves all the other circuits untouched. Your refrigerator will continue to function just fine and keep your food fresh. The reverse can also be achieved.

    Stuart Hameroff is an anesthesiologist and one of the authors of ORCH OR. He does know the exact amount of anesthesia to administer and not kill you. He is the proof that one can be selective in inhibiting conscious microtubule functions witout affecting other brain functions. Do check out his video. Post #1. Its quite interesting. And demonstrable in practice.
     
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  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Microtubules gone haywire.......

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  17. globali Registered Senior Member

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    Aren't all microtubules polymers of tubulin? How can they have different functions if they are self-sufficient to produce consciousness? Of course microtubule effects depend on their neighbouring structures. You are claiming here that microtubules produce cognition by themselves.

    Some chemotherapeutics work by stabilizing the microtubules. Still no effect on mental processes. Good or bad.
     
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  18. globali Registered Senior Member

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    Anesthetics mostly work by affecting ion channels. Some don't affect microtubules at all. How can these people lose consciousness with intact microtubules?
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Watch the Hameroff video! He is the anesthesiologist. It's amatter of toxicity.
    Interestingly, all living organisms respond in exactly the same way to the same dosage of anesthetics. The commonality lies in their microtubules.
     
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  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, noooo, I don't. I make no such claim and have already answered that question from someone else.
    There are 19 pages of pure information. Nowhere do I make a claim of innate intelligence.

    I pose the question if the totality of the microtubular network may yield an emergent copnsciousness. Just as the current hypotheses hold that consciousness is an emergent phenomenon of the "neural" network. I have merely reduced the question to the microtubules within the neural network. Neurons do a lot of other stuff.

    All Eukatyotic organisms large and small have microtubules. Most of them are not conscious. They may be "sensitive"!
    Should a microtuble in your toe control your consciousness or just be able to send messages and heal the damaged cell?

    You have billions of microtubules in your body. They perform all kinds of functions. One of their main functions is mitosis (cell duplication), which indicates an ability to recognize and copy chromosomal instructions, a feat that our modern computers would have touble with.

    That is what makes brain microtubules good candidates for emergent consciousness. Please do some reading. I took the time to gather the info. Don't make me take the time to explain the info.
     
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  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    There is exactly as much evidence that our consciousness is based in urea as it is based in microtubules. With all the work that urea does in the body, it is much harder working that those microtubules - and so urea gets more credit for consciousness.
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I thought urea was a waste product?
    https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/urea

    What are you talking about? Flushing the baby out with the bath water? Please be serious.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    What Are the Main Function of Microtubules in the Cell?
     
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