Punishing women for false accusation of rape

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by paddoboy, Jul 15, 2019.

Page 13 of 15
  1. wegs

    wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,254
    That's a great point, about the 'imbalance of power.' I work for a firm where I have to meet with clients on occasion. There are men who are clients who treat me with respect, as I treat them...but, there are a few men who feel the need to flirt, compliment, etc. Looking for a reaction of some type, I'm thinking. It puts me in an awkward position because they're clients, but I politely smile and redirect the conversation. The funny thing is though, I wouldn't tolerate it from a male coworker. I've thought about shifting these few flirty clients to one of the guys on my team, but when asked why, will I be judged that I can't ''handle it?'' So, I just don't say anything, at the risk of losing the client, or having to deal with my team's scrutiny.

    That imbalance of ''power'' is a real thing, but not all men approach women in that way, thankfully.

    So, maybe your post triggers me paddoboy, because I feel for any woman who believes she has to smile along with a customer who is flirting with her.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
    wegs, Jul 18, 2019
    #241
    dumbest man on earth likes this.

  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Seattle

    Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,874
    I think if you asked to shift those clients over to a guy it would signal that you couldn't handle it or had to receive special favors.

    If a guy had a female client who always did a little light flirting with him he's not likely to ask to trade that client with a female co-worker. I get that a woman flirting with a male isn't potentially as physically threatening as when it is the other way around but if those guys aren't making you feel physically threatened, I'd just learn to deal with it.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    There is a certain "toughness" that is expected in the corporate world if you want to move up as opposed to being an administrative assistance who plans to stay put for her whole career.

    Part of moving up is handing problems without going to your boss every time. If you make your bosses job harder, you're not going to move up as soon.

    Part of it isn't fair to expect more of a woman than a man would have to deal with in that a man isn't likely to mind a flirting client as much (or at all depending on the situation) but it is legitimate IMO for women to have to "suck it up" and like a seed "grow where you are planted" because guys are expected to do that from an early age.

    When women always have complaints or need special consideration they just aren't going to be picked when there are other qualified candidates who can "handle it".

    Most guys (me included) in a work situation are going to think long and hard before ever admitting or asking for any kind of special consideration or to demonstrate that they can't handle anything. In my mind, that's the real job (regardless of your field or specific job). "Can you do this job" ... the only answer is "yes, no problem".
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
    Seattle, Jul 18, 2019
    #242

  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. wegs

    wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,254
    I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t ask for special consideration. As mentioned in my post, I don’t say anything.

    But, I don’t agree with some of what you’ve said. You’re under the impression that you need to tolerate inappropriate behavior just to get ahead. You really don’t. That’s not part of anyone’s job description.
     
    wegs, Jul 18, 2019
    #243
    dumbest man on earth likes this.

  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. RainbowSingularity

    RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,447
    that is a part of my job description.

    however, generically i agree with you.
    the old adage of "you have to copy the boss & culture to get ahead" has changed

    the good bosses are still the good bosses
    the culture has changed(in the better work places)

    profit drives business evolution
    equally cost drives business to evolve.

    the whole punishment of the victim theme seems to be consistent as a political vehicle

    Anti-Whistle-blower fanatics
    Anti Womens Rights fanatics
    Anti LGBTQ+ fanatics
    Anti pro democracy Fanatics(Fascists Nazis & Communists)
    Anti Refugee Fanatics
    Anti Immigration Fanatics

    bullying enabling ? what is culture ? who sets the standard ?

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...rump-renews-attacks-omar-190718012234426.html
    https://newrepublic.com/minutes/152...hant-women-make-sexual-harassment-accusations
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
    RainbowSingularity, Jul 18, 2019
    #244
  8. Seattle

    Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,874
    You are free to not agree with everything I say of course

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    but I'm just sharing how a guy would probably deal with it. Whether its appropriate or not isn't the real point I was trying to make.

    A guy would probably figure out a way to deal with it without involving his boss. If it bothered me that much then I would talk to the female client and I would have to do it in such a way (hopefully) that I didn't lose the client or embarrass them too much.

    Just passing it on to someone else doesn't really address the problem and what if you worked in an all female office? There would be no one to pass it on to.

    Maybe this is a subject for another thread but in my mind as an employee who wants to get ahead, I don't look at the company as something that I have to fight (us vs them). I don't look at it from a union point of view.

    I don't have to do anything morally wrong but small problems should be solved by me if I want greater responsibilities down the line. I can't handle a client isn't something that I would want to go to my boss about even if it was a problem.

    I would handle it.

    That's not to say that this is the only way to do it (and thus a new thread could be started but I'm not going to start one

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    .

    If you think another approach and way of looking at this is better, I'm all ears.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I do think it's an interesting subject. If a pipefitter could answer this question I'd ask Paddoboy but I think you have the more relevant experience so I'll ask you.
     
    Seattle, Jul 18, 2019
    #245
  9. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,426
    paddoboy:

    You're nothing if not consistent, even when it comes to sexism. I didn't really expect that you would take any of this on board.

    There is a tendency to appeal to "tradition" when it comes to stuff like this, and the old are more susceptible to that than the young. It's hard to recognise that just because things have always been a certain way, it doesn't mean that's the right thing. It's even harder when it involves coming to a realisation that you, yourself are at fault. It is even harder when that realisation means that you need to make some changes to yourself. We're all inclined to think of ourselves as good people with good intentions. But that's not enough.

    It brings me back to this:
    Dial things back a few decades and you would have heard exactly the same kind of talk from men about other things:

    "Mark my words! You can bet your short and curlies, sonny, that the simple things like only men having the vote, or women keeping the house while the men go out to earn a living, will continue long after I kick the bucket and my generation has passed on. It really is the height of pedantic stupidity to complain about it. Obviously, women aren't equipped to have a say in who governs us, and a woman's place is in the kitchen. Everybody knows that."

    I know you don't care. You've lived in a world in which sexism has been the norm for so long that you've come to think that this is the only way it can be - indeed that this is how it should be. Besides, your in the privileged group that that has always benefited from this arrangement, so why would you be motivated to change anything?

    While we're on that subject, I might remind you that I, too, live in the real world. So does the women who showed you how to find your olive oil. You and your attitudes are part of her daily lived experience.

    Not for anyone. Just for you, as a representative of a certain class of sexist old men.

    I see. You regard speaking out about sexual harassment as just another case of political correctness gone mad. Which is really just another way of saying you're opposed to treating people decently if it suits you not to.

    How many times have you rung the manager to praise the male employees at the supermarket? You know, because they deserve a compliment. I'm really interested to know.

    Like I said, no ability to put yourself in her shoes.

    It would be great if this kind of thing was just a hypothetical, but incidents just like the one you describe, involving men who are just like you, happen all over the place, all the time. Perhaps you should ask your wife about her experiences of unwanted attention from men. Because, I'm confident she'll have had some.
     
    James R, Jul 18, 2019
    #246
  10. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    Where have I ever not expressed sympathy for victims?

    In other words, why do you expect or demand that I express sympathy in a particular way with these two men? This is like this expectation in the US that Muslims come out and speak out against terrorism because they are Muslims..

    Do you expect me, a woman and a rape victim, to speak out for these two men because of..?

    And reasonable answer? Given your performance over the course of this thread, you are incapable of understanding "reasonable" if it came out and smacked you in the face.

    See, this is why your motives are so obscene.

    Huh? What does this have to do with false accusation of rape?

    Why are you bringing up your pubic hair?

    And why are you still doubling on on your sexism?

    Sleazy.. Creepy sleazy.

    Sweet Jesus.. What the hell is wrong with you?

    Do you say this to men in the same way as well? Or do you just save that for women?

    I have quoted your own words to you.

    Most recent horrific example:

    Let me put it this way..

    I am not lying.

    You haven't corrected anything. Instead, you dug a bigger hole for yourself and kept doubling down.

    We get it. You're a man. No one cares.

    Just stop.

    And for Christ's sakes:

    Never, ever, do creepy shit like this again.

    Jesus..
     
    Bells, Jul 18, 2019
    #247
  11. wegs

    wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,254
    Um, I am handling it. Lol I never went to anyone about it, I’m sharing what thoughts went through my head, but I added...that I didn’t do anything.

    I forget that you like lecturing.

    That said, physical advances don’t start at one encounter, they start with verbal flirtations etc. If I continue to do nothing and a client escalates the behavior, someone may ask me why I didn’t say anything. These types of situations happen everyday for women. It doesn’t mean we aren’t strong, it means there is a double standard that we are sometimes dealing with.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
    wegs, Jul 18, 2019
    #248
    dumbest man on earth likes this.
  12. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,426
    I wonder how many male bank tellers paddo has complimented regarding their beautiful accents. And how many times did he ring the manager later to say what a top bloke that teller with the accent was?

    I'm wondering just how much interest paddo habitually shows for the countries of origin of male bank tellers.
     
    James R, Jul 18, 2019
    #249
  13. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,426
    Seattle:

    In other words, you're saying that such a request, coming from a woman, might damage her job prospects in the shorter or longer term. And whose fault is that? Who is receiving these signals that she can't handle it?

    As her employer, wouldn't it be better to start from the position that she shouldn't have to handle that kind of crap?

    You're imagining a situation in which the presumed power is with the guy, by default.

    It's that kind of attitude that gives licence to men to continue behaving badly. Women have been just dealing with this kind of thing for far too long already.

    The male default, again. The glass ceiling. The women need to act like men to "move up".

    Thankfully, in some parts of the corporate world, at least, the assumptions are gradually evolving, particularly as women show that they can do the job equally as well as, or better than, the men who have traditionally had a stranglehold on the top jobs, and all without having to pretend they are men.

    That's about the first gender-neutral comment you've made in this post.

    No, they aren't. The guys typically don't have to decide whether to "suck it up" and put up with workplace sexual harassment. It still happens to men on occasion, but far less often than it happens to women. It's not a level playing field when it comes to this.

    Yes, the men are selected "on merit". Their "merit" is that they don't complain about being harassed as much. The reason they don't complain is that, mostly, it doesn't happen to them. See the picture that is starting to form?

    Again, a male stereotype comes into play: the stereotype of the independent male who is good as suppressing his emotions and plowing on in spite of adversity. These men don't visit the doctor when they are ill. Some of them eventually burn out due to accumulated stress and lack of a work-life balance. Nobody rocks the boat, so the boat stays the same.
     
    James R, Jul 18, 2019
    #250
    wegs likes this.
  14. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    Or asking how many young men working in supermarkets about where their "extra virgin olive oil was hidden" while noting how young and pretty they were..
     
    Bells, Jul 18, 2019
    #251
  15. Seattle

    Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,874
    I agree that your last comments are often the way it is. Your others are a little off-base IMO. I'm not assuming anything. The "boss" in question could be a female. I'm saying that in that environment everyone who gets ahead sucks it up.

    Now I'm not talking about the kinds of incidents that the me too movement was founded on. Sure, you should go to your boss in those cases and things should be different on up the line.

    A client smiling at you and telling you that you are particularly attractive today is the kind of thing I'm talking about and I think (I could be wrong) that's what Wegs was talking about.

    It's a little uncomfortable. I think you can probably address this with your client or come up with some solution other than asking your boss to transfer this client to someone else. The actual facts would be a judgement call of course.

    My point would be the same if we were talking about some uncomfortable small problem even if it wasn't gender related at all.

    Your coworkers have to work this Saturday because a big client is coming to the office on Monday. Your son/daughter has a sports event that you ideally would like to attend. Everyone in the office has kids with sporting events. The dads, on this occasion make the sacrifice and work on Saturday. A female coworker (mom) asks to not come in this Saturday.

    If that happens over and over, she isn't going to get promoted as quickly. That's all. And that was the topic and whether there is another way of looking at this other than the one I presented.
     
    Seattle, Jul 18, 2019
    #252
  16. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,426
    Seattle:

    I agree with you that there are situations that are less serious and situations that are more serious, and an appropriate reaction to one situation may not be the appropriate reaction in a different situation.

    Regarding corporate culture more generally, it's not something I have a lot of direct experience in, so I'm not going to make lots of experience-based pronouncements about it. What I would say, however, is that a lot of corporate environments are still structured around the notion that Dad works while Mum stays at home and looks after the kids, when the reality these days is more often that Dad and Mum both work and share the responsibilities regarding the kids, to a greater or lesser extent. Having said that, it is still tends to be women who end up with the greater load of "home duties", and a lot of those women end up sacrificing "getting ahead" in the corporate world in order to be there for their families.

    I think that corporations - workplaces in general, when it comes to it - still have a long way to go to really start to cater for equality between men and women. The entire way "work" is structured in our societies still retains notions and ideals and policies that date back to an era where women were effectively excluded from those kinds of roles. Change is happening, but it is slow and incremental.

    I should also add that the downsides are not all for the women. The expectation that Dads will come in on Saturday to prepare for the big client coming on Monday may be par for the course, but I don't think it is an expectation that is conducive to creating a really healthy society.
     
    James R, Jul 18, 2019
    #253
  17. exchemist

    exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,537
    Oh absolutely. I was just interested by your anecdote. For someone at work, who knows you perfectly well by name and you see regularly, could obviously be taken as showing a lack of professional respect.

    By the way, for a woman it should be "habibti", shouldn't it? (It's been 35 years

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    ).
     
    exchemist, Jul 18, 2019
    #254
  18. paddoboy

    paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543
    Perhaps you are simply ignorant of what a pipe Fitter is. I was a Fitter/Machinist/Welder. And having ever served in two companies, ICIANZ for 27 years and QANTAS FOR 14 years, along with sensible hard work, investments enabled me to retire 5 years before the official retirement age of 65. Oh, and I also get no pension as my assets are above a certain level where the pension cuts out. Done pretty well actually...two story house, my Mancave in the back with mezzanine level which I built myself when I retired, and two 65inch TV's one in my man cave.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Comfortable without complaint and on the shores of Maroubra Beach. You should visit sometime..fridge always full of Fosters.

    If it was a Male bankteller that went beyond the call of duty to help me, I would have done the same. In fact I have with a GIO car insurance salesperson and invaluable advice a few years ago.
    I also pride myself on recognising accents, and have asked many taxi drivers [as well as the female bankteller] where they came from. I'm pretty good at it.
    Does that explain it all James?
    I will bow out now as I see why this has created the furore it has, and I'm truly sorry to anyone that has personally experienced any form of sexual assault.
     
    paddoboy, Jul 18, 2019
    #255
  19. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,426
    I think it's pretty clear where you stand when it comes to sexism. It's been an education.

    You've really given us nothing that shows that you really do understand what all the fuss is about. So, based on that, I'm not convinced.

    That's good to hear, but that wasn't what this thread was about.
     
    James R, Jul 18, 2019
    #256
  20. paddoboy

    paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543
    Which shows again you are totally wrong. But I can live with your misinterpretation/s.
     
    paddoboy, Jul 18, 2019
    #257
  21. wegs

    wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,254
    ''Habibi'' is fine to be used to describe men and women, but habibti can be used too, when describing or talking to a woman. (Of course, only if it's welcomed.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    It's usually used as a term of endearment between gf/bf/spouse, and friends.)

    Wrong usage would be walking up to a customer service person and saying ''Hey habibi, can you tell me where you hide the extra virgin olive oil?"
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
    wegs, Jul 18, 2019
    #258
  22. exchemist

    exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,537
    ...just for example.......

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    exchemist, Jul 18, 2019
    #259
    wegs likes this.
  23. billvon

    billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,646
    You would tell a female bank teller she has a beautiful accent. You would tell a male bank teller he was doing a great job.

    There's a difference there, if you look hard enough.
     
    billvon, Jul 18, 2019
    #260
Page 13 of 15

Share This Page