OTH, you do seem to be categorically excluding the converse - such that, if we hear about it, then it warrants "public humiliation, degradation along with loss of career and social standing." At least if you are replying in context of my post. Yes?
No, you just need to stop grasping.
That seems a bit harsh T - especially when I specifically asked for examples of exceptions. These examples are much harder to come up with, in light of the fact that we will never hear about them. By your own definition.
Like this. Okay, so:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever. Look, dude, all you're trying to do is what every dude-advocate is trying to do, which is, functionally speaking, demand the terms by which men (in this case, you) will discuss sexual harassment, assault, and misogyny. And perhaps that sounds harsh, but you're in good company; Jackson Katz even tried ... well, okay, that's the thing; I can't even describe that disaster. At the very least, you're not doing
that badly.
Part of it is that you can't even tell me what kind of spectrum or continuum or comparative you want. You make demands and when people answer they get cheap not-even platitudes in response. So let us be clear: Your
"must"↑ is only about
your own satisfaction, and like your standard of
"consensus"↑, utterly meaningless. No, really:
Consensus at
this↑ point↑ appears bound to your own mysterious, internal standard requiring satisfaction.
So why don't we try this:
Why don't you try putting something affirmative down? Here—
The idea seems pretty simple - sexual harassment presents as a continuum. Very few things are truly binary and human behavior ain't one of them.
If that is a true statement, and it is coupled with desire for repercussion when harassment occurs (somehow I don't think there will be any argument on that point) then we should be able to discuss whether all forms of harassment (including sexual assault) are deserving of the same consequences. If they are not, then some forms deserve harsher penalties - others not so much.
(Boldface accent added)
—we can start with that. You, like so many who address these aspects, can't seem to come out of vapid generalization:
• "If they are not, then some forms deserve harsher penalties - others not so much."
I honestly don't know whether to start with ...
...
Really? or ...
...
And?
To what are you applying this? What phantom are you chasing, here? You want people to take a stab at quantifying this, but what does that even mean? How about the not so much part? Again:
And?
It's just really strange to have someone start demanding, for no apparent reason, that everyone stop and pay attention to a two-bit two plus two. If I say you can't actually tell people what you're on about, it's because the entire principle of your inquiry seems to be very, very sosobra.
But, you know, what do you mean by not so much compared to, say:
... it seems that all transgressions deserve public humiliation, degradation along with loss of career and social standing. At the minimum.
It's almost like you're asking people to read your mind. There is something you're thinking of, and won't tell us what it is, yet we are supposed to respond to and accommodate it.
What? What do you actually want out of this? (Or, maybe: Whose ruined life are you pissed off about?)
Because here's the thing:
Call me crazy, but I think this is where you hear about "the men" looking back at their pasts and wondering "am I next?"
Yeah ... er ... ah ...
Caroline Orr↱ already covered that one for you:
I keep hearing people say the recent flood of sexual assault allegations has men "looking over their shoulder" and wondering if they're next. There's a really easy way to answer that question: Have you ever sexually harassed or assaulted a woman? No? Good. Yes? You're next.
No, you wouldn't know she said that unless you happen to attend her Twitter feed, which in turn, well, okay, she got
the Roger Stone to go off on her and J. K. Rowling last year, so why wouldn't I keep an eye out. Still, though, it's not like she said anything particularly unique.
Nor are you saying anything unique. To the one, I don't feel like asking the women to proscribe the age boundary for being a dumb kid, or anything, but for our practical purposes, then, we can simply go with, yeah,
we're all feeling the heat right now. There are no secret methods or paths for getting through it. There are, however, certainly ways, if you need to deal with prior behavior or discussion thereof, to simply
not go about it.
Meanwhile, remember also our own projections will describe the exposure we think she can perceive or accuse. On this occasion, what that means is to consider the idea of being accused:
Q: Did you do it?
• Yes — As you deal with it, remember there are more bad ways to address the circumstance than there are known ways for getting through it intact; constructive sincerity will be your asset.
• No — For whatever reason, many in this position still manage to find a way to make things worse; that is to say, there are certainly responses and methods to avoid.
• Yes, but c'mon .... — Yeah, uh ... something goes here about lots and lots of ways to fuck up your response, and remembering to avoid them. Good luck.
How you respond will show where you think you have exposure. In another discussion, a bit over a month ago,
I considered Russel Simmons' response↗ to accusations:
Simmons issued a terrible statement; and when they lead like that, watch for the hook: In the first paragraph he denies the allegations and asserts all his relations are consensual. The second paragraph asserts his innocence and attacks others. The third paragraph acknowledges his exposure while shining himself up as some sort of sacrificial hero. It's an awful statement, and, damn it, his attorneys, at least, can be reasonably expected to know how terrible it is.
His exposure would appear have something to do with how he treats the word consent. (It really was a
terrible statement↱. Don't ever issue a statement like that, for any reason.)
And, for instance, the shit that I can't apologize for is just something I can either deal with or not. The girl I groped at the mall when I was fourteen? I have no idea who she is; I can't tell her I'm sorry. I can't tell her what I learned from and about my behavior. And so, you know, there really isn't any point to pleading youthful stupidity, but I can tell you a little about what I learned: In my time, that was like counting coup; there is a reason I recognize rape culture. I don't get to make excuses about how society raised me that way, but, you know, if I can be constructively sincere about how that all worked, there
will be a time and place for telling the story. Nobody gets to feel sorry for me; the point is to figure out what we got wrong so we can disrupt the perpetuation of such cultural atrocities. And if every now and then a shiver runs through me sufficient to disrupt mundane function, an echo of knowing I treated another human being that way, nobody gets to feel sorry for me; it's the least I owe. I can't apologize, so I will remember and neither is that anything to applaud because, honestly, I do not seem to be allowed to forget.
Do you see how this works?
A lot of us got by on just and merely and only. The last time I felt compelled to apologize for such behavior, I was only playing with her hair and thinking I was charming while we were all loaded. Quite frankly, if that is my last dance with harassment, blessed be. But I'm not about to delve into the complexities of the fact that she was nicer than she needed to be about it, because that can actually be problematic on a whole other vector, and well beyond my faculty to properly address.
Just and merely and only are not our decision to make. And that's why we feel the heat. Once upon a time, sure, I did some stupid things, and some of it was disrespectful, but that's how it was, and ... er ... ah ... I mean, right? That comfort is gone. We don't get to absolve ourselves like that, so now we feel the heat. Just telling ourselves we learned and know better is not presently a viable option.
Which, I suppose, brings us around to grasping after straws.
I'm aware I missed a couple; I'll come back to them.
____________________
Notes:
Orr, Caroline. "I keep hearing people say the recent flood of sexual assault allegations has men 'looking over their shoulder' and wondering if they're next". Twitter. 29 November 2017. Twitter.com. 24 January 2018. http://bit.ly/2i38jdM
Simmons, Russell. "Russell Simmons's Statement on Rape Allegations". The New York Times. 13 December 2017. NYTimes.com. 24 January 2018. http://nyti.ms/2zke8Nl
