Evidence there is no Heaven or Hell

Evidence there is no Heaven or Hell
Using medical science we have two states of death, clinical death and terminal death.
clinical death is the ceasing of a major organ which will lead to becoming brain dead, or terminal death. (if not revived and the major organ repaired.)
we know that if someone's brain goes for 15 to 20 minutes with out being oxygenated, when reveived, they will probably have severe brain damage to the point of a vegatative state or retardation or some other type of loss of cognitive skill.
the science of cryogenics states that they quick freeze people "after they die a nature death" but before the lack of oxygenation to the brain takes effect.
we all got our views of what heaven or hell is like from our parents. when we die, if good = heaven, if bad = hell.
yet when these scientists thaw out the brains in say 50 or 100 years later and reintroduce them to an oxygenated blood supply, when they "wake up", will they say they have been in heaven or hell the past 50 or 100 years? or will they just wake up?
mommy and daddy said that once you are in heaven or hell you can never leave. ever.
so...is mommy and daddy lying or are the scientists right?..,

 

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what is dead though? if your body is kept at a state frozen where no cell degeneration has started then theoretically if you are woken back up you would have gone no where and you were never dead. interesting point though. i couldn't say for sure but i don't believe in an afterlife so i don't think anything would happen to you if you were cryo frozen.

 

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hmmmmm

I am still undecided as to what I believe about the afterlife, and Im not a believer in the christian bible at all.

But lets just say your body does have a soul, and your body is just a vessel.

Would it be fair to say its possible for your soul to leave your body and go to heaven or hell etc ,........ while your body stays and is regenerated at some later date by medical science?

How this would work and exactly how much of your conscious mind is soul supported i dont know, ..........but maybe that subconscious voice in your head that tells you right from wrong or tidbits of life saving info etc is your soul and the rest is your animal / physical self.... both can survive without the other...as to a severe personality change....yep no doubt if souls are real..and yours left for heaven without you .... id imagine youde be a differnerent person even if you didnt realise you were without a soul.


cheers
RazZ

 

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You cant cryogenically freeze someone and bring them back to life,once youre dead youre fucking dead.

Frogs and turtles can actually survive being frozen. When these animals sense ice on the outsides of their bodies, their livers produce extra glucose (blood sugar), which floods into their cells to protect the cell from freezing and from damage. This also holds the cell's shape so it doesn't collapse upon itself. Nucleating proteins "guide" water out of the cells, allowing the water to go in between the cells and the organs. This allows the water to freeze, but in small pieces, without "spears" that could puncture the cell membrane.

Trouble is humans are not like that,and also if the person has died,whats the use freezing them?
you cant copy the "hibernation" of animals as the animals are not actually dead,when youre dead hibernation effects are obsolete.
And if your hibernating,youre not dead.

 

Doom,

If you remove the power from a computer is the computer then considered dead?

When power is returned then the computer is seemingly resurrected?

Our only problem with humans is that we have trouble turning the ‘power’ back on again. However, if we can freeze the brain before the neural networks decay then we can preserve that person indefinitely. The hope is that future technology will enable the preserved neural patterns to be re-animated.

Death need not be considered permanent but just a potentially temporary suspension of animation, providing care is taken to preserve the all important neural patterns. However, once the patterns are allowed to decay then retrieval becomes impossible – that I would consider real death.

 

I have a question thats been plaguing me for some time.......Where were we before our birth? Were we in heaven? What are your answers?

I have my thoughts on this, but this question is for those who believe in life after death.

 

Actually a computer is dead when you remove the power,the hard drive is essentially a brain that need's no power to retain its functioning,no hard drive and essentially the ram resets when power is removed.

The cpu is not the brain,all of the computer is useless unless the preprogramming and state before power off is retained,thats the hard drive.

So if the human brain works like a hard drive then yes,maybe.

You have to overcome possible brain death,cos brain death is the same as death even if the function is returned.

As to the question "what was it like before we were born?"
maybe the obvious answer is that what it is like before you were born is the same as when you die,nothingness!

 

Doom,

Is it? Doesn’t this depend on what we mean by ‘dead’. Is an electric light dead when the power is off or is it just in one of two alternate states?

No that is not true. A disk can never be considered ‘brain like’. It is simply a storage medium that has the property of persistence. During the 60’s and 70’s main memory in computers used magnetic cores which also retained their state when power was removed. Most computer manufacturers are now also currently working on ‘persistent’ memory where RAM maintains its state when power is removed.

The essence of what makes a computer function is the operating system and programs. These are primary patterns of bits. These can be stored anywhere, on disk or in memory, but it is only when these patterns are interpreted, by say a CPU that we see effects.

But it is the mechanism that animates the bit patterns that comprise the software. Together they form an animated device.

The human brain contains neural networks that we could consider to be similar to the bit patterns of software, but the brain does not have a single CPU but rather it has several billion of them. These are known as neurons and all operate in parallel with a vast communication network between them. If the fuel to the neurons is removed then the neurons will begin to decay in a way that fundamentally changes their state to where they cannot return to their prior functional state. This is permanent death.

Good.

 

Or, perhaps the parents don't know what they're saying, and the scientists aren't lying, AND we do have souls.

To begin with, good = heaven & bad = hell is thoroughly ambiguous. There are so many extenuating circumstances to the point where it would be silly to list them all. One example, though, is blatant ignorance; some people don't know that they're doing bad or doing good. It eventually comes down to the point that to do evil (i.e., "bad") is to be in hell already; evil, hell, &c., is simply "the absence of God"--just as, say, "cold" is "the absence of heat."

Secondly, I must agree with someone who made one of the earlier replies on this board saying that the soul most likely never left the body if, in fact, it is revived after 50-100 years. Are there any cases where the body was not revived? -- if there are, those were most likely the cases where the soul found its temporary departure from the body.

So I don't think the scientists are lying. But then again, I don't think the scientists are trying to refute the existence of a soul; only philosophers do that. Scientists don't say anything about the metaphysical aspect of any given situation because it is not their place to; that is the job for a theologian--not a biologist.

How, by the way, is your speculation on these cyrogenic scientists "evidence" of there not being a heaven or a hell? It appears that you may have made an attempt to argue against the existence of "souls"--but heaven does not require "souls" for its existence; yet all hell requires is a self-preoccupied soul for its existence--I have heard it said that a man is his own hell, for only a man can choose whether or not he will love God or have anything to do with Him.

 

the operating system is the conciousness.
software programs are the choices we make in the life.
the hard drive is the physical brain where the consiousness resides.
the cpu is the spinal cord.

The CPU (the processor) is not the brain, it is the central nervous system. it would not interpet any data unless the operating system told it to.(the cpu is the spinal cord and the chipset is the nervous system that runs all over the body)

your arms wouls never move unless your conious mind residing in the physical brain sent signals to the spinal cord to send signal to move the arms.

 

If the parents know they dont know what they are saying arent they lying shoudnt they tell the truth and say ya know what kid.. i dont know.

now define the "real world concept of heaven and sort of living hell."

where were we before we were born. well if our parents as children wanted to grow up and love a mate and have kids then the idea of us was created in their love for us at that date when they were kids.
so to be with love would also to be with god and god is in heaven. heaven being an emotional state our parents created and used faith in that belief that they would one day find a nice person to raise kids with and fulfilll that hope of expressing that love with the unmade kids yet.
so heaven is an emotional state of mind, before hand.
The afterlife is simply what people say about you "after you life".
the memories and stories of you will last longer than youi ever did. so do a lot nice thing to get remebered and talked about long after you dead.
hell would be, you do rotten things and people rise up and punish you for the rotten things you did, and when you are dead they do nothing but tell other of all the rotten things you ever did.
if you ever did do two or three nice things no will ever probably mention them and just list with loathing the 300 bad things you did over and over and over again.

say if we had Hitlers brain quick frozen before anything happened to damage it. if we thawed him out and reveived his whole remembering consiousness, and he, in today's day and age just for the sake of example, had realized the errors of his ways and this time helped orpans and built bridges and whatever, wouldnt the world still hate and spit on this man for what he did?
youve got to admit the whole world will never ever grow to love this man ever.
I am stating that also forgiveness is a state of mind.

 

"If the parents know they dont know what they are saying arent they lying shoudnt they tell the truth and say ya know what kid.. i dont know."

I was suggesting that most parents don't know that they don't know what they're talking about. They have an watered down version of a True Theology. But since they don't know that they don't know, they wouldn't have any reason to think that they should say "I don't know"--because they think they do.

So, tell me, how is it that this....

"so to be with love would also to be with god and god is in heaven.

...follows from this....

"where were we before we were born. well if our parents as children wanted to grow up and love a mate and have kids then the idea of us was created in their love for us at that date when they were kids."

From the rest of what you said after that, it seems like you're suggesting that our "prior life" and "after-life" are something like "what other people think of us." So for that matter, what about while we're alive? Supposing my father wants me to be a lawyer when I grow up, I end up being a lawyer. Or maybe people really do live up to the essences in their names; in my case, my name is Trevor; "Trevor" comes from a Celtic word meaning "wisdom" or "prudent"; I find a certain level of interest in philosophy: the "love of wisdom"; so maybe this means that my mother knew, before I grew up, that I would (1) enjoy the study of philosophy, and (2) be really narcissistic (for if Trevor = Wisdom, and philosophy = "love of wisdom", it must certainly come to mean "love of Trevor"--and I must be really self-absorbed...and, in fact, I kind of am self-absorbed). Now, that people would live up to these "essences" is a nice thought, but it is a bit deterministic. I do not believe in determinism, but that's just because determinism isn't true...it's nothing personal, you understand. Since we're being psychological, I think determinism is the materialists' cop out because they think no one should ever be held accountable for anything.

Right. So anyway, I hope this helps you understand the "you" that is doing the understanding.

 

RE: Truth Hurts

CPU <b>is</b> the brain.
Mind is Operating System

 

i don't think there is any pre or any post. you're not even contrived of before you were born. otherwise there would be millions of "pre" people as there would have to be one for every millions of sperm in a male- i don't think so. you're not even a whole person until the egg and sperm form the zygote. actually, why do males produce so much sperm if god knows the future- creates the people in the future- so therefore there is no possible variation and only one possible outcome. would god not then create males with the ability to create one sperm??????? that makes sense. or for him to create the male with the ability to create the sperm at the time god know's that person will come into existance??????????????????

 

Philosophy, Science, or Religion?

this doesn't make much sense in a religious thread; maybe a cryogenics of philosophy thread would be better for it.

On to what i was going to say:

no human has ever successfully been "awakened" from a cryogenic "sleep.", We're not even sure if it's possible, so how is this "evidence" at all?

Still, even if it is possible, what does that prove? How could you tell if the soul in the revived body was the same as the one that was in it the first time around?

 

why would it change?

cryo freezing of people may be possible in the future, but i think it is not going to happen in my life-time

 

The whole heaven/hell thing where we started on this topic. if the soul goes to heaven or hell, isn't it possible that when the body is reanimated it has a different soul that isn't in the afterlife (if you even believe in such a thing)

 

I dont believe that to be a possibility. But maybe you can elaborate on this idea.

 

why not? it makes perfect sense to me.

 

Exactly! It makes sense to you, to me, I see it as a weak idea with no rational backing.