The Matrix Reloaded (spoilers are marked)

Discussion in 'Art & Culture' started by Jerrek, May 15, 2003.

  1. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,464
    You're the first person I've heard from that didn't like it. Ah well, to each his own.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,846
    It's AWESOME, you must see it.

    As for the sex scene, I LOVED it. Why? Because it made me unconfortable. It made me think "goddamn gratuitous sex scene"... but they really didn't get too "graphic" in terms of nudity.. but in action... they forced you to look at it in a context where it's absolutely integrated with life, rather than something we continually pretend isn't happening. I thought they shoved the emotional content of it right in your FACE and said "why aren't you okay with this too?" At least that's how I took it.

    here:

    but they HAVE to be in another matrix because they KNEW the one would come, so they HAD to have built a system possibly many layers deep.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Ectropic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    195
    Here is what I think...
    ***SPOILER***

    Semirealistic Theories:
    1: The discussions about choice nearly prove that Zion and the "real world" are there to make the rebels feel like rebels; they are another level of the Illusion. That easily explains a lot of things, like how agent Smith is controlling the person in Zion and how Neo stopped the sentinels and could "feel" them. Also, wouldn't the vehicles and environment change in the "real world" if this had been going on for a very long time? I think that none of the electronics would survive hundreds of years. I'm surprised they have what they have if it has been only 100 years of fighting.

    2: Agent Smith was given free will. He is now acting on his own accord on a mission to destroy Neo. My theory is that he believe that if he kills Neo, the matrix cannot restart as all the previous version of Neo ended up doing. Therefore the Matrix ends and Agent Smith doesn't have to suffer through "the Stench of this prison... this zoo." That would be his motive. Sidenote: That is just like Jason Lee's charactor in Dogma!

    3: More about Agent Smith: Smith has become a virus in the system. He has to be what will be different about this undulation of the Matrix. I think that somehow he will be important on the collapse of the system and the freedom of humanity.


    Thus ends my realistic thoughts, below are some random ideas that popped in to my mind.


    Off the wall ideas:
    1: Neo is not a person at all, but a program in the matrix just like the Agents, the Architect and the Oracle. He is specifically there to lead a resistance and fool the rebels in to having hope. I think that thought stemmed mostly from the architect's speech, but I may need to hear it again to verify my ideas.

    2: Since a lot of time must have passed (600+ years since there have been multiple cycles with the one, and they mentioned they have been fighting for 100 years) I believe that the skies have cleared and life is coming back. The machines are at a point where they hold humanity not for the energy they need, but because they want to preserve their creators.

    3: The Oracle wants humanity to be free. It seems right judging by how she talks and how she is portrayed as a Mother figure. She even says in the first movie something to the effect of "Maybe in your next life" to Neo.



    ***SPOILERS***

    Thus ends my ramblings, I hope it wasn't too long, this is the first time I have posted to this site.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2003
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. airavata portentous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,352
    i also think agent smith is one of the coolest villains ever potrayed on screen.
     
  8. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,464
    Agreed. He has the 'Sephiroth' kinda evil feeling to him!
     
  9. Ectropic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    195
    ***SPOILERS***

    I don't believe that is true. On teh screens every single one goes to the same door as this Neo. I believe

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    that is showing that the first thing all of them did is try to win (hope). I don't know if that is true or not, but that is what I saw on the monitors all over the walls. If someone sees it again watch for that part and let me know if I am right.
     
  10. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,464

    That architect speach really messed me up... I remember him saying one door leads to humanitie's destruction... But which door? The one that Neo chose?
     
  11. Ectropic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    195

    Yes. He chose the door to try and save Trinity instead of the one that allows the recreation of Zion and a "reboot" of the system. I don't know if that means that all the other Neos chose to try and free humanity from the Matrix, or if that means they all somehow came back and made the choice to keep humanity in the Matrix. Maybe it means that even that choice was an illusion and the system will restart either way. Maybe it means nothing and all the screens were just images of the current Neo making a the choice he made. I don't know, I'll have to see it again.


    Wow, that block of text made little to no sense. Please someone tell me what I am talking about!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: May 19, 2003
  12. Chiasma Registered Member

    Messages:
    25
    If you haven't seen, don't read

    I think that all of the others that came before chose the other door. Why do I think this, it is because the matrix is still running. I remember the architec mentioning something that are some depths the machines are willing to live if all of the humans connected to the matrix died. Also mentioning something to the fact that the door he chose would end all human life connect to the matrix, hence why he said the phrase already mentioned. Why did neo chose something different? Trinity. Off all others that came before him, he was the first who had someone he truly loved with him in the matrix. His decision was "screw it." "I'll save trinity, and hope the best for the rest of humanity." Just my opinion. I really need to watch it again!!

    As for the sex scene. It was way to long. I got the point after about 5 minutes. The rest was just gratuitous.
     
  13. SoLiDUS OMGWTFBBQ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,593
    MAJOR SPOILERS

    Here is the conversation with the Architect, for your reading pleasure:

    Architect: Hello Neo

    Neo: Who are you?

    Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and although the process has altered your consciousness you remain irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question maybe the most pertinent you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelevant.

    Neo: Why am I here?

    Architect: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent in the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden deciduously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you inexcerably here.

    Neo: You haven’t answered my question.

    Architect: Quite right. Interesting, that was quicker then the others.

    Neo: Others? (What others? How many? Answer me)

    Architect: The Matrix is older then you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next. In which case this is the sixth version.

    Neo: Then there are only two possible explanations, either no one told me, or no one knows.

    Architect: Precisely, as you are undoubtedly gathering the anomaly is systemic. Creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

    Neo: Choice, the problem is choice.

    Architect: The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect; it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it, Based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However I was again frustrated my failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another, and intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

    Neo: The Oracle

    Architect: Please, as I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at an unconscious level. While this answered function it was obviously fundamentally flawed thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly. That if left unchecked might threaten the system itself, ergo those that refuse the program while the minority if unchecked would cause an escalating probability of disaster.

    Neo: This is about Zion

    Architect: You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

    Neo: Bullshit

    Architect: Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it. The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

    Neo: You won’t let it happen, you can’t. You need human beings to survive.

    Architect: There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However the relevant issue is whether you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world. It is interesting reading your reactions. Your 5 predecessors were by design based on a similar predication a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species facilitating the function of the One. While the others experienced this in a very general way your experience is far more specific, Vis a vie love.

    Neo: Trinity

    Architect: Apropo, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

    Neo: No

    Architect: Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors, the door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion, the door to your left leads back to the matrix to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know we you are going to do don’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth, she is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.

    Neo: If I were you, I would hope that we don’t meet again.

    Architect: We won’t.
     
  14. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,846
    wow, thanks for posting that!
     
  15. Halo Full Time Nerd-Bomber Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    587
    Wow how did you get all that dialogue?

    Ectropic - I may be wrong but I believe when the Oracle said "maybe in your next life" she was referring to his acceptance of being The One. In the first movie he was certain he wasn't the one but it took him dieing to figure out that he is the one. Remember when Agent Smith shot him at the end of the movie while Neo was running for the phone? He actually died and when he got back up he was actually in his "next life", henceforth he is The One.
     
  16. DouBTlessWonDer socially inferior to TV Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    111
    Exactly. I rambled on and on someplace on the Scifi threads why I think this. But there was no suspense, and the fights were boring, too.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    *yawns*
     
  17. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    There's been enough talk of the supposed philosophy of this movie. Frankly, I find the philosophy very trite. There's definetly some interest in finding out exactly what's going on - like in a David Lynch movie (and excuse me for sounding like a typical film fan). But what the Matrix is missing that Lynch films have is a point. The Matrix, as I see it, has no real philosophy. The original one was largely to do with Plato's Cave and tons to do with how humans deal with the illusion of choice. The second movie does exactly the same. Why the hell do I want to see the same thing twice? If these guys were actual philosophers, they would be able to examine something slightly different in the second movie, and they failed at that. Why did they fail? Probably because they had zero sense of need to investigate something different. Choice, free will, and illusion are three of the most simple, common, and easy to express ideas in all of philosophy. Also, it's the easiest to appeal to the masses.

    Let me relate this to Woody Allen. Maaaaaaaany people have said Allen remakes the same movie every two years. Well, this is definetly true in some ways. All of his movies have a way of investigating human nature, all of his movies revolve around some element of his life (then again, every work by every artist has had an element of them in it) - but the philosophy in his movies differs. I can watch Love and Death and find Aristotle. I can watch Deconstructing Harry and find Nietzsche. I can find Annie Hall and find Kafka ( - actually, most Allen films mention Kafka). The second Matrix is the same thing over again, and my guess is within a short while after the third one is released, you'll hear the critics shouting about the lack of making something at all different.

    Now, this is not to say the movie is crap. I enjoy it. I enjoy trying to figure out what exactly is going on (especially while stoned off my fucking gord). But it's nothing spectacular in terms of its philosophy. And that was slightly disappointing.

    Beside that - I laughed through parts of the fight scenes. The rest, I shook my head. Some of it was kind of cool, some of it was smooth, but for the love of god - I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH A COMPUTER GAME!!!!!!! Apparently the Brothers COMPLETELY forgot what made the fight scenes in their original movie good - THEY WERE REAL LOOKING!!!! They need to go back to that. If I want to play a computer game, I will sit on my ass at home and play a fucking computer game. I dont want to spend $10 to go see a goddamn movie turn into a cut scene from NFL2k3. I hated it, absolutely hated the fights that turned 100% computer graphics. It was terrible, completely unrealistic and it lost the movie for me. I never again want to laugh at a fight scene. And I never expected a Matrix fight to make me laugh. But they were terrible, and disgusting.

    Oh, and finally, some of the lines made me break up laughing. And everything Morpheus says makes me laugh. Fishbourne might be a good actor otherwise, but he's playing Morpheus like a REALLY BAD Shakespearean actor.

    Anyway, I must go.
     
  18. orbie Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    130
    Confusion about the ending...

    ___Spoiler_____
    After Neo meets the Architect and is back on the Nebuchadnezzar and he tells the crew they have 24 hours until the fall of Zion..but moments later after the sentinels are destroyed and the other ship picks them up, Neo and his crew are told that Zion has already been destroyed.. What's up with all that?
     
  19. Abdiel Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    102
    I personally loved the movie, the entire thing. I feel that it took this saga to a new level, and the to be concluded at the ending left just enough at the end to make me crazed to see the finale of this saga. Furthermore, I am of the opinion that this movie is indeed deeper than any other movie on the market today. Deeper than what I have been used to with, what, X-2? Perhaps other philosophers will seen this movie as rather shameful when dealing with these topics, yet this moive does make one think. And for that alone I am grateful

    ****Spoiler*****





    At the end Neo is picked up by the hammer which I believe just came from an outpost where a counter-attack was to take place immediately after power to Zion was cut. Now apparently Bane was the one who released the emp shock wave sending the entire attack into disarray. Afterwards being the only one to survive because he himself was agent smith. As for Zion, I think that it is presently under severe threat from the machines.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2003
  20. spookz Banned Banned

    Messages:
    6,390
    really? in that case check out the context in which it was used here! its ok! you can call me a genius! i do not mind!

    What have YOU got to hide?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    edit: spookz being bashful

    there is the required white background and of course if someone deletes a post, shit goes out of whack (see last link)
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2003
  21. wesmorrisbabe Ethusiastic bistander Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    266
    Halo, good point.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    I liked the movie a lot, too. I was kinda disappointed by a little aspects of the plot, ie., the relationship between Neo and Trinity, and the love triangle between Morpheus, Niobe (is that how you spell her name?), and that captain-guy, but it was mostly very good. The special effects were awesome! Yeah, I was kinda disppointed in the ending. Strange. I had no idea what was being said between Neo and the Oracle or between Neo and the architect because the dialog seemed like a foreign language to me... Hehe.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    But, still, I gotta give this movie the thumbs up. Can't wait to see the next one. It's due to be in theaters this winter, right?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2003
  22. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,464

    K, there is only one thing I don't understand... If the architect wants neo to choose the door that leads to the source why does he almost encourage Neo to choose the door that leads to Trinity and the end of the human race? And what decision did the previous 5 "one"s have to face? Couldn't be the same since Trinity wasn't around. And when is the glitch supposed to kill all of humanity? It almost seems to make complete sense, except for these few inconsistencies that throw it all off...
     
  23. orbie Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    130
    Abdiel, right on! Thanks, the outpost was the part I was missing. Awesome, thanks again for clearing that up.
     

Share This Page