On the nature of information

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Magical Realist, Nov 3, 2015.

  1. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Transfer of energy is required in order to make copies of information so that it can be sensed or processed by something. Without this characteristic, information degrades or decomposes or radiates away without transferring any useful content or energy to anyone or anything that is capable of making use of it. Most information in this universe does this. We will never know if it was information at all, since we cannot exceed the speed of light in a vacuum in order to retrieve it after it passed our locality in time.

    A near perfect universe for the likes of magicians or liars or other manipulators of information who understand this. Rewriting history is possible in perpetuity if no one remembers what actually happened. Ben Carson's history of the pyramids are one notable and eccentric example. Is this information, or is it something else?

    So I left out disinformation as a variety of information. Good one!
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
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  3. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Sure, to make copies, yes.

    But that is not then part of any definition of "information" as such.
     
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  5. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    The retinas of your eyes make copies of visual information about your surroundings. In order for them to be able to do that, energy transfers via photons take place. If you are blind, you cannot ascertain the state of a physical object without touching it.

    You seem to be saying that information exists without our being able to sense it. Undoubtably a lot does, but without energy transfer, there really is no means for us to sort out information from a lack of sensation. I believe I have covered all of those bases several posts ago.
     
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  7. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, but none of what you have said means that transfer of energy is part of the information itself. Yes of course information exists without it being sensed. I don't imagine you would argue that a closed book in a dark library contains no information, merely because it is not being read at the time. That would absurd, wouldn't it?
     
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  8. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Sounds a little like the Schroedinger's cat scenario , doesn't it? Hmmm...
     
  9. Spellbound Banned Valued Senior Member

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    This would be incorrect since information requires a read/ write operation.
     
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  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Not in the least.
     
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  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    No. According to the Google dictionary, "information" has two senses, one of which is subjective or observation-dependent, but the other is not. I quote: " what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things."

    It is this sense that we typically use when we speak of information in the context of science. For example, we may say the frequency of the Lyman alpha line (in the spectrum of hydrogen) contains information about the energy gap between the first and second electron shells in the atom. It is up to us to find out what it is and what it can tell us, but the information is there, whether we observe it or not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
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  12. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Information is the raw data. Gathering raw data is only step one. Once we have all the raw data, we then need to process this data; via theory, logic and equations, to gain deeper meaning; step two. There is a special case, where step one and step two can get confused.

    For example, Paul might say Joe is a jerk. Is this data or is this processed information? This data sounds like a subjective opinion, therefore this is not raw data, but it has been processed. However, this is being presented by Paul; insistence, that this is raw data, I can use for further processing. If I use this information as raw data, this data point is more like statistical data, with a fuzzy halo of uncertainty. There is a grain of truth in this data, but this is shrouded by subjective opinion; uncertainty.

    If I am a rational thinker, I will see this halo of uncertainty, which is not rational, and assume this is not rational raw data, but rather this is processed data, to look like statistical data. I don't like statistical data because it allows one to cheat. I will need to reverse engineer the fuzzy data, so I can remove the halo, so this data point can be used as the basis for rational processing. I may have to ask Paul questions to remove the fuzzy statistical halo he created through subjectivity.

    We live in a statistical culture, with polls and black box studies, where data is processed, and the result is then called data wth a halo of uncertainty. Many people, then use this as raw data; all planes are now less safe or coffee is not good for you. This results in confusion between data and processed data, with the two often interchanged. This affect is sort of why the internet is not a good place to gather raw data, but it is a good place to gain fuzzy data; predigested. Politics also capitalizes on confusing data and processed information. Conclusions are treated like raw data point, fixing the curve ahead of time with fuzzy.

    The underlying premise of statistics is a random universe, therefore all data is predigested by the assumption of random, even f this is not random. In this universe, there is no raw data, since chaos will play with it first, by definition. This creates a confusion between raw data and processed data, since there is no real raw data.
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Of course writing the book, editing it, printing it, publishig it, is all exchange of information, either directly or indirectly. The content of the book itself of course is an exchange of information.

    Information is not necessarily an exchange of human knowledge, but the exchange of any causal energy.
     
  14. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    What? The content of a book is not an exchange of any kind.

    Reading it or writing it is. But a book just sitting in a library is not undergoing any exchange of information.
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Reread my post more carefully. I was using the term *information* in the abstract.

    And for that matter the book itself (even if sitting on a shelf) is constantly exchanging information, i.e. decay.

    ok, I'll add the (qualifying edit)
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
  16. Spellbound Banned Valued Senior Member

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    Yes! Information travels to the mind at the speed of light, and there are very few times we are not exposed to it.
     
  17. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, with the qualification "when it is read" I would agree.

    But then I wouldn't agree with the next sentence, that information is an exchange of something called "causal energy". What do you mean by this term? Can you give an example?
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Any *information* which is causal to events that lead to change.
     
  19. Spellbound Banned Valued Senior Member

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    I propose, that in order for a computer to remove the entropy from a given physical subsystem to free up its storage capacity and replace it with extropy, a subsystem must by necessity replace "physical" information with physical information (i.e. real versus unreal), so that the informational system can effect freedom.

    Reality is entirely all-inclusive. It includes the beliefs as well as the facts, all the mental and physical sides. Elements of truth and false statements.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
  20. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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  21. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Extropy is not defined in science.
     
  22. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Confess this still sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me. I don't get it at all. Can you give an example, please?
     
  23. Spellbound Banned Valued Senior Member

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    It is an increase in order.
     

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