Russian warplane downed; Turkey says aircraft violated airspace near border

Discussion in 'World Events' started by p-brane, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    The pilots probably just pushed the wrong button and ejected instead of getting ice for their orange screwdrivers. That, or their cockpit breathalyzer failed and locked them out. Anyhow, Schmelzer was promising that Russia would wipe NATO off the map in any confrontation over Syria, so when exactly is that supposed to happen?
     
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  3. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    First, I do not think the Russians will follow this idea. Second, the Kurds have no problems with Assad, because Assad has already offered him autonomy, and there are enclaves of Assad forces in Kurdish controlled regions and reverse without any conflicts between them. And I know even that some Russian guys are in Kurdish controlled regions for the purpose of coordination.

    ????? I have quoted, correctly, but forgotten to link the source. Of course, this is not a lie.
    I have given a source which I consider as reliable. You don't, but nobody cares.

    Anyway, to prove something to a guy who needs many many posts without understanding that http://www.sciforums.com/threads/why-isis-is-rich-oil-only-small-part-of-why.153117/#post-3342278 proves something is, sorry, to boring to spend a lot of time for this. You have to live with the fact that after that experience you are classified as uneducable. So, I will provide some proofs if I consider it to be useful for other people, but what you think is irrelevant.
    The most likely source for the sarin was Turkey, and most of the evidence point to Turkey.
    No.
    Sometimes at odds, sometimes not. Recently they have been in quite good relations with Al Nusra (that means Al Qaida), and during their attacks on the Hanaser-Hama road they have nicely cooperated with IS too. And, as far as I know, IS is also in Latakia nicely cooperating with FSA.
    Long ago. So, yes, Saddam was weak. And, BTW, weapons are not everything, the Russians have never had a high opinion about Arab fighters, after they all run away from the Israelis.
    Regarding its military capacity, it was quite weakened over the Yeltsin time, but today it is clearly First World. Try to find out how many countries are able to build completely own high class fighter jets, these are the First World countries in the military.
    http://rusvesna.su/news/1448391222 does not sound like a lot of restraint. There will be no immediate military retaliation, but the planes will be secured by fighter jets, there will be better air defense, and it was claimed that everything dangerous will be shut down.

    The US is now, via NATO, officially an ally of a terrorist supporter, one who has shot down a plane fighting international terrorists. Of course, this makes things simply more visible which always have been well-known, with a long tradition of the US supporting terrorists. In this sense, nothing new.
     
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  5. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    You are full of shit.

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  7. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Here's Putin lying to the world about the rude, boorish drunkards he sent to Crimea. I should have posted it a long time ago in response to Schmelzer's nonsense, but I was just too lazy and lost interest in the argument. Got a bunch of stuff to present to Joe and BillyT in their economics threads sooner or later, but again same deal. My bad.

     
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  8. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    One of the two Russian pilots is now reported to be dead. Must have packed a little extra drinky-poo instead of a parachute.
     
  9. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    No. There is no lie by Putin. And, of course, they were not rude, boorish drunkards, but have been named "polite men in green" by the people.

    To prove a lie, you need something more. Simply a claim that some Russian official has said something of type "there is no Russian army there" is not enough, for the simple reason that initially there was no speznas, but later there was. Initially, there were the Berkut police forces coming back from Kiew and local militias, grabbing weapons from local police stations and from the secret police. The Russian speznas came later, in agreement with the local government, and in agreement with the legal president of the Ukraine.

    So, to prove a lie, you have to give evidence with a date when the claim was made. Together with the evidence that, at that date, there has been already Russian speznas in action.

    BTW, I already know that there are ... in the world who are happy if fighters against the IS are killed. No need to tell me about this.
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Ain't that the truth!

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    He'll twist, squirm, misinterpret, use strawman arguments, pedant, semantics, you name it, if it can avoid the truth, he dabbles in it.
     
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  11. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    So in the end, it all depends on what your definition of the word "is" is.

    While we're going around dispelling myths, I think we should discuss all this silly hullabaloo about Russian athletes being "enhanced". Steroids are made of atoms, atoms are completely natural, and this argument is already widely accepted in the western world of competitive bodybuilding, so it would be utter hypocrisy for Russian athletes to be singled out even if they're in a different sport with different rules.

    They weren't fighting ISIS, they were passively-aggressively pressing Russian territorial claims on Turkey. Not to worry though, I'm sure the surviving guy is down on the ground somewhere hanging out with ISIS at this very moment. "Wow, you guys do that too? Who would have thought we have so much in common?!"

    As a matter of principle, I'm happy whenever terrorist or fascists of any stripe get their own medicine up the anus. Hopefully the Russians dropped some bombs on an ISIS convoy before they went sightseeing in Turkey.
     
  12. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    ??????

    The claim is that Putin has lied, and there is no evidence for this. What I have seen was a case where he has refused to acknowledge that Russian speznas is there, at a time the speznas already was there. But he has, at the same time, refused to make an explicit claim that there is no speznas there. This was, clearly, a reply of type "sorry, I'm not interested to answer this question now".

    By the way, is a nice video, about the fight around the helicopter which has tried to rescue to pilots but was damaged. The reporter makes strong claims that the shot was made over Syrian territory. And another statement is interesting too: "The provocation was prepared very good, immediately there appeared 8 videos made from the Turkish side", as evidence for the claim that these were from the Turkish side was made the point that the smoke was going to the other side, so, once they have made the pictures from the South, the other videos have been made from the Northern side, that means, from Turkish side. Only two of them, the reporter claims, were fakes, so that the reporter concludes that there have been people knowing what will happen.
     
  13. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.almasdarnews.com/article/19505/ gives the official Russian position

    The interesting question is if a Turkish jet on the Turkish border side will be classified as a potential threat - given this incident, there would be reason to think so - or not.

    http://www.almasdarnews.com/article...by-syrian-special-forces-in-northern-latakia/ claims that the other pilot has been rescued.

    Putin has also said this, see http://rusvesna.su/news/1448450802 (in Russian). He has also said that the measures mentioned above are considered to be not sufficient, and, as part of more measures to come, there will be, (now officially, claims that it already is there are old) S-300 air defense on the Russian airbase.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
  14. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2015/11/24/turkey-pokes-at-russia-seeks-nato-cover/ seems also quite interesting. The author is a retired Indian diplomat, M.K. Bdahdrakumar, so certainly knowledgable.

    Also worth to note what he thinks about the Russian retaliation possibilities:

    If a former diplomat considers this to be a possibility, I think one has to take this seriously.
     
  15. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    From Reuters, http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/uk-mideast-crisis-usa-france-idUKKBN0TD2UG20151125 so to say the official NATO propaganda instance:

    "A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters the United States believed the Russian jet was hit inside Syrian air space after a brief incursion into Turkish air space. The assessment was based on heat observed from the jet, the official said."

    http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/11/...oting-down-russian-plane-was-very-bad-mistake

     
  16. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    http://rusvesna.su/recent_opinions/1448441939 gives an interesting analysis. The thesis is that it was Erdogan's private affair, and not, as one could be afraid, a US action with Erdogan as its puppet. The main argument is that the reaction of the NATO was very weak, a little bit of more or less formal solidarity with a member, but not more. With US propaganda accepting, more pro-forma than really, that the Russian yet was really over Turkish territory - but for a few seconds, not, as Erdogan claims, for at least 5 minutes. So, they essentially present Erdogan as a liar.

    (Of course, Erdogan has to blame here himself, given that it is the Turkish map which shows only a few km way on the Turkish side, so, let's see, 5 min = 300 sec for, for simplicity 3 km, makes 10m/s, the velocity of a sprinter, but not really a plausible estimate for a fighter jet.)

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    The other point is what is proposed as an answer. Not to hit something in Turkey, but, instead, hit everything Turkish inside Syria. And there is known to be a lot of this on the Kurdish parts. Turkey likes to hit PKK with aircraft in Syria as well as Iraq. This would be no longer possible, that means, the PKK would have a safe haven in Syria. If one thinks about it, this would indeed really hurt.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
  17. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Those maps sure look interesting, but unfortunately we're all far too busy dealing with flight MH-17 right now to investigate Russian planes going down over Egypt and Turkey.
     
  18. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    In this case, I would recommend you to have a look at the press conference of the BUK producer Almaz-Antey I have not found a version with english subtitles, but here is a short summary in english and the earlier press conference in english.

    But, more actual, Turkey has expressed condolence to Russia, see Lawrow's press conference
     
  19. p-brane Registered Senior Member

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  20. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    An interesting Turkish article: http://www.todayszaman.com/columnis...s-up-a-new-contract-from-the-west_405254.html

    It presents some additional evidence that the shooting down was pre-planned. First of all, it mentions Turkish history, and claim that whenever Turkey makes an issue out of Turkmens or Turks outside have been somehow harmed, one has to expect a military action. Then, he notes that it would have been impossible for Turkish bureaucracy, if not preplanned, to react that fast: "Think about this: The plane goes down and immediately Ankara is able to show the entire world the maps showing the route flown by the plane. Then we hear the audio tapes of the Turkish pilots warning the Russian planes; the voices are so clear and audible, it's as though they had been taped in a studio beforehand. ... For those who know the normal speed of Turkish bureaucracy, it's obvious that unless this scenario was prepared in advance, there's no way the statements we've already heard -- and the reactions we've already seen -- would have come in such a timely fashion."

    They think that the West is behind this, and also have arguments for this, one has to think about this.
     
  21. p-brane Registered Senior Member

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    Do you think the West is behind this?
     
  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    ...nothing like anonymous sources who are publicly contradicted by the highest public officials in the land. Obama said very clearly and distinctly Turkey had every right to defend its airspace in his press conference yesterday.

    And as has been previously discussed in this thread, this wasn't Russia's first transgression of Turkish airspace. It was just the most recent.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Huh, no. One conspiracy nut citing another isn't evidence of anything but their mutual nuttyness.
     
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