What is "Rape Culture"?

Me not paying attention while failing to copy a link to clipboard, apparently.

Nothing like blowing the joke at the outset.

 

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Oh, I see. I thought it was some sort of inside joke that I couldn't figure out.

I think we all agree on that. You guys did notice that the FBI didn’t even consider men as victims in their definition until 2012. We had a case here before where a statutory rape victim was ordered to pay child support. I couldn’t believe it, and apparently it’s not the first time.

http://jonathanturley.org/2014/09/0...im-ordered-to-pay-child-support-or-face-jail/

 

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Rules of Attraction: Social Media

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"I don’t come with a money back guarantee. Dates aren’t commodities."

―Lauren Crouch↱​

In the first place, I fully admit I don't understand internet hookup dating. Tinder, for instance. I've tried basic internet dating, and I just don't get it. I really don't get the whole Tinder thing. Then again, maybe that's because it's an online thing about purportedly discreet issues with such a result that we too often hear about that discretion rupturing into, well, indiscretion.

It is in this context that we find an intersection of contemporary dating culture and the basic objectification of women.

Rule number one: I'm reasonably certain a joke about Tinder goes here.

Rule number two: If you're going on a date with a blogger, pay attention to the fact that the person you are going on a date with is a blogger.

Rule number three: Regardless of the first two rules, don't ask her to repay the coffee money just because you're not getting laid.

Just sayin'.

And, you know, maybe it's a Tinder thing that I just don't get, but in that case, neither does she.

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(Sigh. There is that. Apparently, this guy is infamous↱, having even apparently made the Daily Mail↱ for this kind of stunt.)
____________________

Notes:

Crouch, Lauren. "#OcadoAndChill". No Bad Dates, Just Good Stories. 12 November 2015. NoBadDatesJustGoodStories.Tumblr.com. 16 November 2015. http://bit.ly/1HUWoTy

—————. "What Happened Next". No Bad Dates, Just Good Stories. 15 November 2015. NoBadDatesJustGoodStories.Tumblr.com. 16 November 2015. http://bit.ly/1lsdDHr

Malm, Sara. "Who said romance is dead? Woman politely declines a second date - only for miserly beau to demand a bank transfer for the £4.50 he spent buying her a drink". Daily Mail. 26 September 2015. DailyMail.co.uk. 16 November 2015. http://dailym.ai/1NYeCKw

 

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When writing my reply to this, I had the good sense to go back and double-check what I wrote, instead of relying on iceaura's account of what I allegedly said. Just to refresh the audience's memory, here's what I actually posted:
"I recall one example on this forum where a video of supposed 'street harassment' was posted, and men simply saying 'Hello, how are you?' to women was regarded as evidence of rape culture."

I did not claim that the entire video consisted of guys saying 'Hello', but was instead referring to some examples of supposed sexual harassment in that video that involved men simply saying 'Hello, how are you' to women. The fact that a simple 'Hello' is regarded as sexual harassment by some people just shows how bad this 'rape culture' hysteria has gotten.

That might be understandable if you were only repeating your same old unsupported assertions ad nauseum (which is certainly part of what you are doing), but you have also been adding to the amount of conjecture throughout this entire discussion. It seems that the more sizzle you offer up, the less steak you provide. Some of your past claims that you have yet to support include:

- That I live in a rape culture.

- That rape jokes are evidence of rape culture, whereas Holocaust jokes are not evidence of an anti-Semitic genocide culture.

- That I'm lying when I claimed I haven't heard anyone in my culture tell a rape joke, and explain how your assertion is relevant to me eating hamburgers.

- Clarify who is qualified to identify a rape culture, when you have claimed that people both within and outside of a rape culture may have trouble identifying it as such.

- You need to explain why the prevalence of rape is irrelevant when attempting to determine whether a rape culture exists, and why you claimed I was the only one discussing these statistics when it was another poster who posted them to fuel discussion of how common rape is in the United States.

- You need to provide evidence of organized gangs of rapists in places you deem to be rape culture, as well as evidence that officials systematically protect them.

- You need to demonstrate that theft is taken more seriously than rape by the police, and that convicted thieves are given longer convictions than rapists.

- You need to demonstrate that convicted rapists aren't blamed for raping individuals.

The above are all claims that you have made which you have yet to support. I'd like to remind you that posters are encouraged to support their claims with evidence, although I suspect that rule might not come into effect if you chant the party line.

By the way, I've noticed you have finally dropped the 'mocking mental illness' shtick. It's nice to know that even a hardcore socialist is capable of being shamed into adopting the pretense of decent behavior.

 

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You're *still* fuming over those discussions? That's hilarious.

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Well, it depends on which idea of rape culture you're referring to. The one, say, I describe? Yeah, most likely. The ones Bowser or Milkweed refer to? Those deliberately ignorant assertions are intended to describe something ridiculous.

Setting aside the Godwin violation, how many Jews did Nazis burn in ovens yesterday?

And how many women were raped? (Depending on the numbers we use, the answer will range on average, in the U.S., between 216 and 720, depending on which 'crime every _____ minutes' average we attend, ranging from 2.0 to 6.6.)

Rape jokes are so prevalent in modern societies that the only way an adult has of saying they haven't heard anyone tell a rape joke is to use ths standard, "That's not a rape joke."

For instance, a cop pulls a blonde over, tells her she was speeding. As he unzips his pants, she says, "Oh, no! Another breathalyzer?" See, to some people, that's a blonde joke, not a rape joke.

And for some people, telling another to not let the door hit them on the way out because of all the times they've been anally raped isn't a rape joke.

It also seems relevant at this time to wonder when you―generally in your habits―and other rape advocates like Bowser and Milkweed are going to start posting something affirmative. I mean, the thing is that people know you're all completely full of shit, and so now we're just watching you carve out this self-aggrandizing delusion in which your merit is your own self-asserted ignorance.

Try arguing something affirmative; if you've never heard a rape joke in your culture, you aren't listening.

Then again, it's true you could be deaf and we just don't know it.

Social scientists? How about anyone with functioning perceptive and analytical faculties?

Here is an example of someone having trouble identifying rape culture: The father of a daughter.

I can even show you two routes.

First, I recall a guy I used to work with, who knocked up his girlfriend when we were all in our mid-twenties. After he got over the shock, he rallied up like a proper father should, and got ready for fatherhood. But there was a day when we sat down in the smoking area on a break, and I listened to him fume about her future. What kind of boys she would be allowed to date; even what kind of underwear his daughter would wear. It was kind of creepy; he was already declaring his ownership over her sex life. And this is a manifestation we often see among traditionalist groups in the U.S.

There is a jaw-dropping manifestation in which fathers will drive their daughters across multiple states, shack up in a hotel, and take them to a black tie ball at which the daddies all stand up and read pledges to own their daughters' sex lives. The guy I worked with was pretty normal for the American outlook; functionally he fulfilled Butler's suggestion of the family as unregulated sexual property of the father. These purity masters trying to fashion sexual bonds with their daughters are just dangerous.

The other way in which fathers show this lack of comprehension is much less creepy, and involves the father starting to comprehend. That is to say, things start to become much more clear in his perspective when he has to receive and respond to information in the context of his daughter. Quite suddenly, the heroic, "Fuck her 'til she walks funny", doesn't seem so heroic.

You need to explain where you're getting all these fucked up fantaasy questions.

Stop making up complete bullshit out of thin air, Tali.

I mean, you do realize, your penchant for inflammatory dishonesty is exactly the reason you have an excremental reputation around here?

Whence comes this demand? And why do you need extraordinary evidence of rape? Does the daily evidence of rape, the regular reminders that "boys will be boys", or that a prosecutor in Weld County, Colorado, thinks the good people of his locale are incapable of convicting a confessed rape.

And part of it is that for all the time you've been grandstanding, people have been trying to discuss the cases and evidence that arise, and that you chose to not pay attention then does not mean you get to self-righteously demand a reset on the discussion just so you can pretend to catch up.

Show me a prosecutor with a confessed theft in hand who tells the victims they contributed to their own theft, and then tells the people he doesn't think they're capable of convicting a confession.

Show me a prosecutor who refuses to charge thieves because "boys will be boys".

Show me how putting a steering lock on my car is the same degree of disruption to quality of life as planning one's day around being sexually assaulted.

You need to demonstrate that you really are that naïve. It would be one thing if it was just the convict and his friends arguing that the bitch was asking for it, but that sentiment is more common than you are willing to acknowledge.

And I would point out that you are unreliable.

Attach each one of your summaries to the statement from which it is derived.

Show us.

Try actually putting some effort into it.

You need to stop making shit up, Tali.

 

I’ve been referred to as a "rape advocate", too, but I think the correct term is a "rape apologist".
Just sayin'

 

No. I think assigning bad/criminal behaviors to 'culture' lessens the impact of intent to change these behaviors. I dont see the effort here to label all kinds of normal human behavior as Rape culture (such as the street harassment video) as doing anything but making people reject the issue as being important. I dont see much difference between the effort to assign "hey girl, you look great in that dress" to rape culture and Ted Bundy blaming pornography for his rape-murders.

To concede the point gives legitimacy to Bundy's claim. You cant have it both ways. And I reject Bundy's claim of porn made him do it. And I reject the bible made him do it, or football made him do it, etc.

 

Me too. (And misogynist, of course.) It's all part of life here. We should start a club!

 

Oh, I see. So, you would probably agree with RAINN’s criticism of the term then, right?

 

I see it as more than mere apologism. This is open advocacy for the beliefs and behaviors within our culture that empower rape.

Think of it this way:

(1) Pretend ignorance, ask what is rape culture.

(2) Ignore all responses, assert a caricature of rape culture, and then denounce it.

(3) Strenuously evade any discussion of real issues.​

The basic effect is the advancement of beliefs and behaviors within the culture that empower rape. Now, certes, we might suggest that's not really what they intend, but the deliberation about their behavior belies that suggestion, and besides, as Burton notes, not even God can escape the implications of double effect.

Or, as Zelazny put it, God is omnipotent and Satan is not a fool.

Okay, that's not fair; he's referring to a specific narrative of the Fall.

Still, the point is clear: Even if this isn't what they intend, it is what they do. Furthermore, it is very difficult to argue they really are so blind to the problem.

To that last, though, I'm also the post-Freudian who believes people really can deceive themselves so badly. The thing is, while it's possible Tali and Bowser and Milkweed are absolutely clueless about their own behavior, that outcome would suggest worrying dysfunction.

Like I said before, this whole thing is about making other people do all the work.

Here, think about this: Remember our disputes about IPA, and how I finally found the one finite marker? Suspect everyone, but #NotAllMen, and #JustNotMe?

Keep that part in mind.

When we talk about the beliefs and behaviors within a societal culture contributing to rape, there is another context to consider. And whether you're in India, west Africa, Daa'ish Levant, or even a fair number of American church communities, it is true that we can easily get men to talk about the beliefs and behaviors within a societal culture that contribute to rape: Blame the women.

When it's time to talk about the men's role?

#NotAllMen! #JustNotMe!

Bowser, Milkweed, Tali. They can only argue straw men. And that's the point. They just keep offering lazy, roadworn talking points and demanding more information.

And that's the whole point, because it means we're not discussing the real problem.

This isn't apologetics; it's advocacy.

 

Incorrectly applied in this case, regardless of which method of mis-direction used.

 

There were no such examples. There were no scenes of men "simply saying 'Hello, how are you' " labeled as harassment. You invented that to characterize the video, the entire thing. At no time did you refer to the video as a documentation of obviously tolerated, normal, culturally standard street harassment of a woman simply walking down the street. At all times you referred to these imaginary scenes of innocence as characterizing the video and the source of people's reaction to it. And so forth.

So you see little difference between a norm of coerced subjugation to unwanted sexual attention bordering on assault, and one of consensual engagement in agreed sexual behavior, in their cultural implications.

Do you see how a typical member of a culture drawing an equivalence between those two circumstances might be taken by some as further evidence of a rape culture?

So there is little significant influence of one's culture on one's conscious decisions. Seriously, you are presenting the conscious decisions of a key and enormously influential percentage of the community as something separate from - and largely irrelevant to - cultural factors.

 

Why?

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Could someone please explain to me what in the world makes a man think it's okay to go sending unsolicited photos of his genitalia to women?

No, really. I would love to understand this dumb-assed phenomenon. I mean, even when it was just a joke in Grand Theft Auto, it still seemed a really strange idea.

"I just sent your phone a picture. Check it out!"

―"Ugh! What's that?"

"My junk."​

Apparently it didn't sound so weird to other people. I mean, a Congressman tried that bit, didn't he? Cost him his office. And it really is a mystery why anyone would do this.

Debra Messing does not have time for your dick pics, men, so don't even try.

Messing took to Twitter on Monday to share that a man had direct messaged her a picture of his penis. "The Mysteries of Laura" actress was not at all amused, as she made clear in a series of tweets.

The next day, Messing shared the penis picture the man had DM-ed through her Instagram message requests. Along with the pixelated photo, Messing wrote "RESPECT WOMEN. RESPECT YOURSELVES" beneath it.​

Huffington Post entertainment writer Carly Ledbetter↱ recalled Jonathan Chase: "Sending a woman an unsolicited dick pic is a coward's move. You aren't impressing her; you're grossing her out, and, one could even say, assaulting her."

Can somebody please explain this idea to me?

And, hey, you know, #WhatAboutTheMen? Just ... think about it for a minute. How's this for a prospect: The whole fucking world laughing at your pathetic penis.

Because, guys, this is all about us, anyway, isn't it? What? No, it's not? Then why send a stranger a photo of your penis? What in the world do you expect to accomplish?

Oh, and also, what's the deal with giving a woman shit when she doesn't want a junk pic?

No, seriously, keeping up the harassment because it's "just" Twitter and you're "just here for some laughs"↱ means you're "just" part of the problem.

So I will give the last word here to Michelle, whose response to Ms. Messing exactly captures the problem:

This has been happening to me (w/ nasty msgs) and my male friend told me "well, that's just part of being pretty". Disgusting!​

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Notes:

Ledbetter, Carly. "Debra Messing Tells Man To 'Respect Women' After He Sends Her A Dick Pic". The Huffington Post. 18 November 2015. HuffingtonPost.com. 19 November 2015. http://huff.to/1MUWksR

Messing, Debra. "RESPECT WOMEN". Twitter. 17 November 2015. Twitter.com. 19 November 2015. http://bit.ly/1T0q0FP

Michelle. "The has been happening to me". Twitter. 18 November 2015. Twitter.com. 19 November 2015. http://bit.ly/1kGIoby

Ya boy Link. "No apologies needed". Twitter. 18 November 2015. Twitter.com. 19 November 2015. http://bit.ly/1j8YSr8

 

Ineffable Devastation

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The following excerpt from Melissa Jeltsen's report for Huffington Post is shielded because it is simply that disturbing. Trigger Hazard may be in effect.

Spoiler

On Friday, police say, 28-year old Gawain Rushane Wilson shot Hiatt, their five-month-old twins, Hayden Rose and Kayden Reese Hiatt, and Hiatt’s father, Travis James Hiatt, before turning the gun on himself at his home in Jacksonville, Florida.

Megan Hiatt, who is currently in critical but stable condition, was the only survivor. From her hospital bed, she asked her mother Melissa Bateh to speak out publicly about the shooting in order to raise awareness about domestic violence, and to help other women before it’s too late.

‡​

"A parent sometimes knows," Bateh told First Coast News in an interview on Monday. "I just knew in my gut that their relationship was not a healthy relationship."

Bateh said Wilson was controlling, taking away Hiatt's phone and refusing her access to the car. He would grab her and break her things, Bateh said, and was verbally abusive, calling her daughter fat. "The babies were three days old and he would ask her, 'So when are you going to start losing weight,'" she said.

In an unimaginable act of cruelty, she said, Wilson forced her daughter to hold the twin babies while he shot them. "He wanted to destroy her world, and he wanted her to watch it be destroyed," Batech said.

Megan Hiatt survived five gunshot wounds at the hands of her husband.

† † †​

It was not so long ago that I had occasion to write↱:

I would like to express deepest thanks to a friend who took the moment to remind me that there really is no real checklist. (You know who you are, and thank you for the much-needed dose of sanity.) And while it might seem strange to thank someone for essentially scaring and depressing the hell out of me, it is also important to remember that not knowing exactly what to do next is not among the best of reasons to let suspicion or knowledge of domestic violence pass. Just wing it, because the first thing our friends and neighbors need to know is that we are here, that they are not alone, that they are not crying to empty space. But none of the fears we have about getting involved will mean a thing if we wake one day and find ourselves asking why we didn’t take the chance to help when we had it. The cacophony of doubt is nothing compared to the silence that can testify to our inaction.​

Those of us who can help: This is our duty.

Those who need help: We are here; we just need to know.

The National Domestic Violence Hotline (U.S.) can be reached at TheHotline.org↱, via telephone at 1.800.799.SAFE [7223], and TTY at 1.800.787.3224.

All of us, together. Please.

This can't keep happening. This will keep happening. But if it doesn't happen to someone because somebody else stepped up and did what they could to help, that's still worth everything in the world.
____________________

Notes:

Jeltsen, Melissa. "Mom Whose Twin Babies Were Killed Has A Message About Domestic Violence You Shouldn't Ignore". The Huffington Post. 18 November 2015. HuffingtonPost.com. 19 November 2015. http://huff.to/1Hal2Vu

 

So I see that Tiassa has chosen to take up the torch after iceaura failed to substantiate his conjecture, as if they were some sort of bizarre tag team. This isn't the first time a liberal has stood in for their comrade after they tapped out. I recall a recent thread where after a poster got egg on their face after having their misrepresentations exposed, a fellow left-wing moderator jumped in and repeated the same already debunked assertions

Iceaura stated that I lived in a rape culture, not that I 'most likely' lived in a rape culture. That's a very subtle shifting of the goalposts right there, but it hasn't gone unnoticed. Anyway, I'd like you to explain how you know I 'most likely' live in a rape culture, if you don't even know where I live. It might be wise to not repeat iceaura's ramblings about hamburgers and some-such.

Another shifting of the goalposts. I asked iceaura to explain why rape jokes are evidence of rape culture, whereas Holocaust jokes are not evidence of an anti-Semitic genocide culture. Iceaura failed to provide a clear, concise explanation, instead choosing to try and make some childish jibes about my mental state. I'll also note that instead of providing a cogent answer, you have answered a question with a question. I will also observe that Jews are still harassed even in today's society. Indeed, Jews are still being assaulted and killed simply for being Jews.

Iceaura and yourself claim that I (most likely) live in a rape culture, and then assert that my having heard rape jokes is evidence of that. When I tell you that I've never heard a rape joke told in my local culture, you both claim "You're lying. You live in a rape culture, therefore you must have heard rape jokes" That is a blend of both circular logic, and the 'No real Scotsman' fallacy. You consider your assumption (ie. That I [most likely] live in a rape culture) axiomatic, and then re-interpret or dismiss any facts that run contrary to that assumption.

Calling someone a 'rape advocate' is a serious accusation, but since it's being made by someone who lacks credibility, it doesn't really bear any weight.

I'm simply asking a poster to support their claims with evidence. I can understand why you would regard that as offensive, given that some of the resident sciforums leftists don't hold each other to any sort of standards in regards to intellectual honesty.

Which 'people' are you referring to? Do you have a poll to support your claim, or should I just dismiss this as yet another of your unsupported assertions?

Which social scientists? The ones inside the rape culture, or the ones outside of it? You might want to get in a huddle with iceaura and collaborate on a response so that you don't contradict each other.

Are you also claiming that I was the only one discussing the prevalence of rape in the U.S? If so, how can you justify that claim when it wasn't me who posted the rape statistics in the first place? If not, why do you ignore that iceaura blatantly misrepresented me?

It comes from when iceaura stated: "You have no trouble recognizing theft cultures - gangs and crime syndicates and organized criminals and the communities who receive and protect them - when you see them."

I'd like for him (or any of his tag team members) to demonstrate that something similar exists for rape in the societies you claim to have a 'rape culture'

I'd like to pause for a moment to point something out to the audience. Iceaura initially made the claim that "The crime (theft) is taken more seriously (than theft) by the police" and "(theft) is more likely to lead to prosecution and serious penalty (than rape)." At this point I asked iceaura to support this assertion with evidence. Note that I was qualified what sort of evidence would be appropriate: Statistical data that people convicted of theft receive longer prison sentences than rapists. That's a pretty reasonable request, right? It's not like such data isn't easily accessible from credible sources, and it would be pretty convincing evidence that a culture takes theft more seriously than rape.

What have I gotten in return? Well, iceaura flat out ignored my request, and instead asked the audience if I had a mental illness. Tiassa has attempted to respond, but instead of providing what should be easily accessible statistical data, has answered questions with questions and isolated examples. Do anecdotes and stories told to you by a friend of a friend at the pub count as reliable evidence on sciforums?

 

So not only does iceaura have issues with reading comprehension, he also struggles with watching a 2 minute video. Here is the video in question:



Here are a number of statements in the video that are simple greetings which the author included as evidence of sexual harassment:

0:14 - "How are you doing today?"

0:36: "How are you this morning?"

0:40: "Have a nice evening"

1.11: "How are you doing?"

1.36: "What's up miss?"

1.38: "How are you doing?"

Indeed, there are far more instances of innocent greetings and remarks being misrepresented as street harassment in that video than I originally remembered. One thing is for certain though, and that is that iceaura has been caught out in a bald faced lie. Given that iceaura condescended to attempting to use the issue of mental illness to ridicule me, I doubt he will apologize for his dishonest behavior.