Is Abortion Murder?

With a fake horror show? How, exactly, does that work?

 

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I wasn't pointing to the video, which just happened to be on the head of the page. My interest was the instruments of death that they catalog under the video, which are the tools of the trade. If you can get past the video, there might be something to learn. Nonetheless, I'm certain the video will be the focus of the link. How unfortunate.

 

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Bowser
what exactly did you hope people would "learn" by observing the instruments?
this seems more of a shock tactic, IMHO... much like a vegan making someone watch a cow/sheep/chicken/animal being slaughtered...

there are some gruesome looking tools that are used for oncology as well... and what about surgical tools? cardiac tools and treatments (how many people just want to go out and buy a defibrillator for the sake of stimulation at parties)?? what about traction or orthopedic surgical tools? those are sometimes quite horrifying, especially when you include historical tools actually used in places like: Civil War Field Hospitals

so... what is the point of your post? it doesn't makes sense....
it is one thing to point to a tool and make a statement (this is a hammer. it is used for pounding nails into wood, etc)
but a random link to a biased web-site who's intent, by the video and tools displayed, is to cause emotional distress and confusion of the topic is no way to "bring it back on topic"

 

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If you can look at a device that's used to drill into an infants head like a cork screw so it can be pull out of the womb, or consider an instrument that has the one purpose of severing arms and legs, if you can consider all those devices without being emotionally repulsed by the idea of abortion...well. I suppose that if we were talking about chickens and cows, the slaughter would be more acceptable. I mean, we eat those critters.

 

so, you are intentionally trying to pull the vegan/horror show shock value tactic?
trying to raise the emotion of the issue while refusing to accept the science?

so... if you want to talk about tools used in surgeries that look horrifying, why not start a thread so you can see orthopedic surgical tools, cardiac surgical tools, neurological surgical tools, (better yet, ANY surgical tools, especially the drills and tools used in accessing the cranium, oncology surgery, dentistry and orthopedics)

many of those tools are even MORE horrifying, but used regularly to save lives!
look up a Hare Traction Splint ... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hare traction splint&t=ffnt&iax=1&ia=images
this is used to splint a leg fracture- femur- on a LIVE patient, in pain, and literally pull a bone into realignment! and depending on the user/situation, you don't always get pain killers (you don't always want CNS depressants on an emergency patient if you can help it-with additional chest trauma and breathing difficulties especially), so this is almost surely a horrible torture... yet it is also standard equipment on a Rescue Truck, Fire Vehicles, and any advanced medical team... especially those who regularly deal with auto extrication

and what if a person can? what if a person has actually had to perform surgery or be in surgery assisting?

like i said, you are attempting to throw gas on a fire without actually acknowledging the scientific underpinnings of the issue...

so, why is it that you want people to be repulsed by the tools and video?
why do you want people to be emotional?
why can't you allow rational thought into the subject?
why would you prefer to be inflammatory and subjective by utilising a tactic that is intentionally misleading?

have you ever done it personally? have you ever had to smell the blood and carcass as it is being skinned or killed? why is your reverence of life only towards humans so that you are willing to kill anything so long as you can eat it? is it really any different? especially Veal, chickens, eggs, etc... technically, they are abortions, or at least the wholesale slaughter of youthful underdeveloped life forms...

so again: what is it you want people to actually "learn"?
or are you just trying to inflame the issue and cause intentional stress by various means?

 

You're referring to tools that are used to put bodies together, not rip them apart.

I think some people have little idea of what they are advocating, and the potential absolute horror of the procedure.

My rational is that life is good, death is bad. I've yet to see an argument that proves otherwise.

I've seen various forms of animal cruelty on the web; however, what I saw of the slaughter house looked merciful in comparison to the treatment the aborted fetus is given. I don't believe cattle are torn apart while alive. Maybe you have first hand experience. Mine is that they are given a swift death before hand.

Some folks seem to look at it as no more serious than taking out the garbage. Knowing what we know, would we really subject another human to such a terrible end?

 

Just ignore the video, please. There is a plethora of photos to view below that fricken video. If I had known people would fixate on that damn video, I wouldn't have posted the link.

 

they are used for medical/surgucal practice, which is exactly the same thing as the "tools" you want to show others from the site

but you don't want to promote that, do you?
you want to promote a fear based or other response, so instead you find ways to justify your behaviour
this is part of the topic discussed which you didn't want discussed, so you instead chose to troll with a blatant emotional tactic that was intentionally designed to cause inflammation, provoke emotional discord and stir the pot into an argument

so, again: what is it meant to teach?
it appears, by your own admission, that you are trolling, not teaching

but i do know exactly what i am advocating and i've seen actual procedures in class and in training (not fake ones)... and i've been in actual surgery assisting (requirement for an EMT when i was in the FD, along with ER time at least twice monthly)
You are coming from a perspective of what, actually?

so you never kill insects? rats? mice? you don't eat anything natural at all? you don't eat grains? cut your lawn? pick flowers? and you never wear leather? clothes? use only synthetic rope?

don't assign morality to something you cannot control or that is subjective and defined by culture or other non-rational sources. it simply IS... there is no good or bad about it

Hunters don't always swiftly kill their prey (human or otherwise). is it wrong?
is it wrong for a Tarantula hawk to place their young into a live host? is it wrong for a python to slowly constrict their food?

again, there is NO difference, really.
and you assume a lot about the fetus that you cannot justify, which is why you've selected emotional arguments and shock links

and again, this is a subjective argument and takes a lot as assumption and doesn't take anything else into consideration except an overly emotional response

like i said, you don't seem to have issues with surgery on humans, which can remove your own tissues (for whatever reason)

the whole reason that this topic is as volatile as it is is because of the tactics you are using. you cannot, and i mean CANNOT make a rational decision about anything when you are so flooded with emotion that logical thought is about as close to you as the Moon is to Sirius

this is why it is very relevant to talk about psychology and discuss the "personality binge" of the posters.
you state above

but the whole reason for you posting the link was for the shock value and the emotional response, so why not take the heat of the fake vid too?

a good point about that: you could have gotten the same value by posting links to surgical tools, so why didn't you?
because you wanted people to emotionally respond to the specific tools listed on the site that you claim are specific to abortions... (technically, this is trolling, but that is beside the point right now)
So, you wanted emotional responses, but you don't want to be called out as a fake, right? (which is why you said to ignore the damn video)
but your links, even without the video, only fuel emotional responses and don't deal with ANY scientific information

Sure, you can claim factual representation of tools, but... and this is important... the tools of the trade of ANY surgical procedures tend to be scary and horrifying!

so again: what exactly can be learned from your link?
why is it that you want people to be repulsed by the tools?
why do you want people to be emotional?
why can't you allow rational thought into the subject?
why would you prefer to be inflammatory and subjective by utilising a tactic that is intentionally misleading?

EDIT: genuine and honest questions. feel free to PM them if you don't want to post it
I am very interested in your motivations and tactics (psychology, etc)

Another EDIT:
on your web link there is a means for linking only the tools, so i have to think that you intentionally wanted that video to be seen as well... sorry
now, that is your own link, too, and yet, in 15 seconds, i found a link at the very top that goes only to the tools, so it stands to reason that your intent was to include the video, unless ...????
Feel free to expound on that if you want as well... i want to understand your reasoning for ignoring data while pushing frightening imagery. (other than the simple emotional response)

 

"Just happened to be"? Why do you frequent websites where that level of calculated and carefully staged deception "just happens to be" front and center on the first page?

Are there no decent and honest websites supporting your views? You sent those people money, didn't you.

I'm going to ignore the whole link. Or maybe call the police - that kind of operation can't possible be entirely legal. They're taking advantage of vulnerable adults. How much money did you send them?

 

I had seen the site previously, and was taken aside by what I saw. The video is a recent addition. I couldn't share the site in bits and pieces. I thought about linking to the images in question, but I thought it best to leave the site intact. Spank me for being honest.

Make of it what you want.

 

Bowser
ok... sorry... i have to comment further on this:
in your own link, right at the top of the page it gives a link to just the tools... so there had to be a reason for including that video, IMHO

Also note, in said tools... things you linked are terribly misleading, with inclusion of imagery meant to scare & emotionally charge the situation... but yet, on your own link, they include surgical tools!

you can find: Manual Vaccum Aspirator or Syringe with Spinal Needle (common in a LOT of surgery, including birth and orthopedic surgery) but they're listed as an Abortion tool!

what would you do if you, your spouse or child (or a pregnant relative/friend) needed a Lumbar puncture and they brought that needle out?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=spinal tap needle&t=ffnt&iax=1&ia=images
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=syringe wiht spinal needle vs epidural needle&t=ffnt&iax=1&ia=images
they would assume it is an abortion tool, right?

what about this one?
http://blacksmithsurgical.com/gynecology-instruments/uterine-curettes
and forceps? REALLY
never watched MASH on tv?

sigh
so... they list big bad scary surgical tools and then specifically assign them horrible tasks to influence the person looking at them....

this is why fear based responses and emotionally charged posts with the intent to push feelings over logic to situations like this are not a good idea

you really should have at least looked SOME of those tools up before posting that link... that was a terribly poor choice. after all, the first three tools i actually looked at are surgical tools regularly used in other places, not just abortions.

that was a really bad choice, man

EDIT:

Bowser
maybe you should look at this and find out how many OB/GYN tools are either mislabeled or misrepresented right off the bat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruments_used_in_obstetrics_and_gynecology

then specifically research each additional tool after that and THEN post the tools specific only to abortions (and don't multi-post tools that are regional or slightly different, like the different types of forceps or hemostats, etc as separate tools)
THEN we can actually discuss the "tools" of the trade

almost forgot: leave out the medieval or archaic tools unless you want to include and also search their surgical partners

 

but the site itself is not honest... take for instance the tools i mentioned above, or the speculum (listed as: Vaginal Speculum - This tool opens the vagina and is used to aid in abortion. )
except that this tool is also used regularly in OB/GYN, even for regular checkups, but the tool they show is not a current speculum, but something that looks circa-WWI

also note, some of those tools are also archaic tools used in back alley abortions and taken from historical imagery, maybe even museum pieces!

and again, i cannot stress this enough: there are regularly used surgical tools listed on the site that are defined as "abortion tools" and the description is intentionally misleading.

What would happen if you taught this to a youth (lets say it was your daughter), driving home the images and making them fear the horrible nature of the event... and then they went to the doc and the OB/GYN pulled out a speculum, or Metzenbaum scissors (mislabeled on your site), and they took out a Uterine Currette for a biopsy or vaginal scrape.... or they had to do a lumbar puncture? what about an emergency DNC? what if they used forceps because there was an avulsed tissue blocking access to a surgical procedure? how would you explain it to the traumatized daughter?

 

"A common abortion procedure performed in the second trimester is Dilatation and Evacuation (D&E), in which the child is dismembered with forceps. Standard abortion textbooks such as Warren Hern's Abortion Practice describe the procedure in detail. Dr. Tony Levatino, who once performed this procedure, describes it for us."

Source: Priests for Life
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/medical/deexplanation.htm

I think PP calls it tissue removal. Is the above link more palatable? Yep, they are slanted in their perspective on abortion, but there's no shock value and it offers just the basic insight.

Maybe Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilation_and_evacuation

This one is my favorite...
https://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/abortiontypes/

 

Linking to deception and lies is not "being honest". Such links are part of your posting - those deceptions come our way by your deliberate posting of them.

You didn't answer: how much money are you and the typically gullible prolifers sending those folks?

So I took a look, and noticed a fair number of claims that seemed dubious to me - picking one in the middle more or less at random, that the human brain is "fully developed" at 12 weeks, I ran a twenty second netsearch and found that it was false:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Human_Brain_Development_Timeline.jpg

Notice also that myelination, critical for pain perception and voluntary movement, appears fairly late in gestation - long after the 12 week point at which the site claims the developing baby feels pain. So I didn't check any more, but that and every other claim made on that site appears to be dubious - I see no reason to trust anything I'm reading there.

Have you yourself checked any of the claims these sites are making?

 

The video is of an actual D&E procedure, no stunt double fetus or special effects. Abortion procedure aren’t pretty to watch, but neither is the slaughter of living meat for the dinner table.

 

I will admit I enjoyed the ranting Tumblr called "Grantham Collection Debunked".

Or one could just go watch Hellraiser 2 in order to learn how to make surgical instruments look sinister.

 

I personally haven't sent anyone money. I would prefer to donate towards helping mothers in need (homeless). Or getting involved directly. To my shame I haven't made the effort, but in my defense, I work ten hour shifts and sleep 'til the alarm clock sounds. Like many others, this issue is very important to me. I just don't have the time to involve myself yet.

I suppose you can find anything online if you look hard enough.

I think people don't want to believe that abortion harms a living being, so they prefer to believe it doesn't feel pain or doesn't suffer in the process. I would be more inclined to believe all living things feel pain. When I was younger I would fish considerably. Having been told that fish feel no pain, I found it quite easy to hook and string them, often carrying them to camp while they slowly suffocated. I don't fish anymore.

I don't feel a need. It's a living creature.