Is Abortion Murder?

No. The developing embryo.

That's not quite what happens, but it's not far removed in many cases.

Pregnancy involves certain injury - of a kind and severity that normally justifies killing in self defense at the mere threat, if by an actual person. It involves possible death, at odds comparable to enlisting in the military - normally a justification for killing actual people, even in some cases actual children.

This seems to surprise you - which is no surprise to those who have been following your denial of the woman's status as a person and right to life etc all along.

 

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I speak from experience with others. There's no requirement that you accept it. Believe what you want.

 

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So what?

Just because you have kids, doesn't give you the right to demand other women shouldn't be allowed to not be pregnant if they don't want to be.

 

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I shouldn't be allowed to demand protection for those yet born? Really?

 

Of course you can. But that's not what you are doing. You are instead demanding the denial of protection to women who are already born.

 

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Nope. Never even managed to major, now that I think about it. But it was going to be history (American). Then psych. Then history (theology) again. Then anth. Then I dropped out.

But every bad decision I ever made about all that, I made for writing.

And for some reason, I'm the only person I know who actually paid attention during the eighties, and even though I joke about missing most of the nineties in a stoned haze, it turns out I was still paying more attention.

Actually, I think a lot of it is ego defense. I've been amazed, lately, in personal circles, how many times I've found myself saying, "But ... but ... you were there."

We're not that old. Nor is it simply parenthood.

Then again, with my parents, I know it's ego defense.

Never mind. The effect ... well, you know. I like words. They're very, very useful. And very important to me.

And it is a curious result; I'm not nearly as smart as some people think I am, but neither am I nearly as stupid as most would presume.

And I've been an extremist at least since the heavy metal wars. That's what they used to call us when we laughed at the proposition that our right to free speech stopped at their right to not have to hear anything they didn't like. The standard has only softened since.

Fuck it. These days I'm an extremist for all sorts of weird reasons. I believe women have human rights; I don't see the utility in pitching the entire historical record in order to make bulletin board argument easier; I've even been called extremist and worse for being so unbearably leftist as to accept a conservative health care plan; I can't keep track of the things people have called me for expecting men to not rape women instead of putting that burden onto women.

I mean, come on. Extremist? My youthful rebellion would prick up, stand proudly erect. My middle aged self finds the word flogged to nothing more than a stain on the sidewalk. As a matter of personal curiosity, did you say that just to make yourself feel better, or did you think were making some sort of point?

 

And yet you continue to devote time to me, over and over and over again. You've attempted to challenge me in three different threads, when I did nothing to provoke you personally, and yet I've kicked you to the curb with minimal effort each time. After I chose to end our previous two discussions because you were failing to offer up anything other than empty rhetoric and emotion, you continued to goad me in a futile attempt to continue your grandstanding. You've sent me snide personal messages urging me to reveal my identity, and gotten stroppy when I explained that I use a proxy to protect myself from harassment. Furthermore, you have requested evidence of my gender. And just now, you sent me another personal message which contained an official warning for my behavior on this thread (oh the irony).

Indeed, after having a brief look through your posting history, I can't see any recent examples of another poster you have devoted so much time to. It has gotten to the point where you are attempting to dissect each sentence of my post, while speculating on my real life persona. Your vendetta is rather pitiable, and even your left-wing buddies are staying quiet on the sidelines, probably out of embarrassment for you. So tell me again how I'm not worth wasting time on, when you have spent (and continue to spend) an inordinate amount of time on me. I can't think of any reasonable explanation for this apparent contradiction, apart from stupidity or masochism. Neither explanation is too flattering.

Now, I see that as with our two previous discussions, you aren't interested in posting anything substantive, instead choosing to answer questions with questions. You've also become far too emotional to have a rational debate with, so I'm going to ignore you and focus on the posters in this thread who are actually choosing to discuss the topic at hand. You aren't worth any more of my time, and I intend to stand by that statement. This will be an interesting test for you, though. Will you continue to nip at my ankles and continue our discussion, despite claiming that I'm not worth your time? Or will you resist the temptation to have the last word? I'll give you the opportunity to demonstrate that you have both the willpower and integrity to back up your statement that I'm 'not worth your time'. Can you do it? Can you *not* waste any more time on me? Or will your statement turn out to be just another lie?

 

Do You See Dots When I'm Talking?

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30 November 2002 ​

And your point?

With the first pregnancy I know I contributed to, my partner chose to abort. I was not given a vote in this, but she did discuss her decision with me. In the end, the thing was dead before the doctors ever got near my partner; its heart never started beating.

The circumstances by which our daughter was conceived are actually pretty funny; raise a glass to Skerik↱. A brilliant Valentine's Day, I might suggest.

The circumstances under which I was told are actually damn scary, so we'll skip that. But my partner ran herself ragged that weekend and collapsed at work on Monday; at the hospital, her pregnancy was confirmed. Immediately, she enrolled in the prenatal program; this one she would carry.

And this one made it, rarin' and ready to go. And, you know, it's just like her that she waited long enough that the doctor decided to induce, and then knocked on the door three and a half hours or so before we were slated to be at the hospital.

And, you know, it's sad, in a way, because an anti-abortion advocate once asked me why I bothered singing to the cells growing inside my partner. Why I would play with a fetus and have such a blast. It really is a sad question if we take it honestly; did that person really not know?

(No, really, I forget who it was. It's here, I think, but I don't remember the specific context closely enough to look it up at present.)

The answer of course, is that my partner made a choice. She decided that she would attempt to carry this pregnancy to term.

I was not consulted. I was not advised until her decision was made. My opinion did not enter that part of the discussion.

And as far as I'm concerned, this is more than simply acceptable; it's the way it should be. Sure, I can see people hoping for the courtesy of an inquiry, but it's not requisite, and, besides, my answer was already known; Tig's body, Tig's choice.

My part came next. You know, because I do have a say in these matters; I do hold a stake in the outcome. I passed on the offer to run and be listed as "Unknown", and took adoption off the table; if she's bringing this one, I, at least, am raising it. Something like that. Besides, it's not like she was going to carry just to send this one out; regardless of what anyone thinks of the (ahem!) accuracy of her outlook, her stated reason was, "I'm thirty. This might be my last chance." This much was clear: Adoption wasn't on the table for either of us.

So once it was decided that we intended to try to do this, of course we're going to engage the organism.

And what's really weird about the question of why I would have sung to the Squash is that I really don't get why I wouldn't. You know, unless I lived with some impediment that prevented me from doing so.

But what was absent from the inquiry was any recognition of the choice. It's a strange thing about the anti-abortion movement, almost as if these people think that because we won't force women to bear children we must hate the little devils, or something. It's kind of fucked up.

But the choice, sir, is very, very important. We have exactly no regrets about my partner's decision. Indeed, over time we even learned to get over our regrets about how we came to have a daughter; in truth, we were an awful couple, and this outcome is the only thing that justifies it.

Most of my family disdains my former partner; I don't wonder why. Still, though, my mother can occasionally be heard, in moments of frustration, to wonder aloud why Tig ever wanted to have a baby in the first place, and all I can manage is to look at her askew and not say, "Are you fucking kidding me?" The answers to the question are obvious. Tig wanted a child for reasons that only make sense to her, and none of that really matters because there are no do-overs, I will not regret this birth, and it is, in the light of this shining star, an absurd question. What answer would possibly satisfy people? Why would they even ask? What, really, is the alternative? There is exactly no kind answer, because none of those align with the observable reality. But even if it really is that Tig was after some abstraction of glorious respect, to feel all that love and hope and societal adoration for her motherhood, I don't see how it matters, because there is no way God Itself could convince me to take it all back.

When the GdC lit, she already knew the song↱.

And all of this from a choice. A decision.

There is no burden of regret. No feeling forced. The pregnancy was unplanned but this child is not a "mistake". She was chosen, hoped for, loved, anticipated, and received with every good thing we could muster. And we chose this adventure.

We got to choose. And we will never regret that choice.

And that's the thing, sir; these testaments are merely what they are. You know a woman who .... Both your kids were .... Here, look at this video about a woman who ....

Hey, have I talked about myself, lately?

These outcomes are also representative of choices, and the fact that these women made these choices does not mean other women should be forbidden from doing so.

 

Who said anything about intimidation or threats? You're reaching when you attempt to daisy chain a bunch of questionable propositions together in an attempt to demonstrate that urging someone to do something amounts to coercing them into doing something. Nobody in this thread has demonstrated how arguing in favor of a particular action reduces the choices available to anyone. All of this faux righteous indignation is just another attempt to hate on Capracus. What's ironic is that he considers himself a liberal, yet his own kind are more than willing to devour him when he disagrees in the slightest with the party line.

 

Your partner was allowed to make her own decisions, and yet you would deny that right to others.

 

Where it magically becomes a person during a ribbon cutting ceremony.

So having it visible and outside the womb has nothing to do with aesthetics and emotion. A turkey, duck, or chicken in the process of hatching can be considered a non-bird until it exits the shell according to Dry Foot. Does this sound rational?

What, you think the physiological changes associated with pregnancy transform women into saints? We have women willing to kill fetuses at full term in the womb:

Sarah Louise Catt, 35, of Sherburn-in-Elmet, North Yorkshire, took a drug when she was 39 weeks pregnant, to cause an early delivery. She claimed the boy was stillborn and that she buried his body, but no evidence of the child was ever found.

http://www.reproductivereview.org/index.php/site/article/1221/

And we have women willing to kill them fresh out of the womb:

Megan Huntsman, 40, admitted to Utah police officers in February she had murdered six of her children, strangling them shortly after birth, wrapping their bodies in cloth and a plastic bag before hiding them in her home.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ren-sentenced-to-life-in-prison-10191879.html

And you think the state, which has already declared a statutory interest in the welfare of a late term fetus should simply trust all women to comply with that mandate?

Yes, what kind of doctor would throw established medical ethics out the window for their own self interest?

He pumped poisonous chemotherapy drugs into patients for years, telling them they had cancer. They didn't.

He over-treated terminal cancer patients rather than letting them die peacefully. When he could profit from it, he also under-treated actual cancer patients.

And on Friday, nearly two years after his arrest, Dr. Farid Fata was sentenced to 45 years in federal prison for violating more than 550 patients' trust and raking in more than $17 million from fraudulent billings.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ctor-sentenced-years-horrific-fraud/29996107/

And I’m sure you feel that there aren’t enough ethically compromised cops and soldiers to warrant restrictions imposed on their conduct either.

According to government standards, simply leaving it up to women and doctors is out of the question. So where does that leave your Dry Foot Policy?

And I’m not suggesting they do. The Roe v. Wade decision granted conditional protections to a late term fetus, which translates to over 90% of the US population living in states that specifically grant such protections.

 

do you not read? seriously the level of your delusions and dishonesty know no bounds.

why did you so easily ignore that? is it because it proves you wrong? I mean you've gone out of your way to make yourself look like an idiot and than were crowing that you made the people who made you look like an idiot look foolish.
seriously tali instead of posting here you should seek help because your clearly delusional and its effecting you.

 

Abortion on Demand and Without Apology!

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The campaign; Stop Patriarchy! Women are not bitches, Ho’s, Incubators, Sex Objects, Punching Bags, or Breeders.
WOMEN ARE FULL HUMAN BEINGS!

Oh, the irony.

What is this movement of yours selling, hmm? How is it useful and desirable?

Abortion on Demand; what is that? Dry Foot; what is that? What are you trying to say, that abortion is the new social good?

I don’t want abortions on demand. Most people are not anti-abortion or pro-abortion extremists. Neither view is sustainable for most people. Most Americans don’t want abortion on demand at any stage of pregnancy, unless the health of the mother is at risk.

"In Roe, the court ruled that women have a right to abortion during the first and second trimesters of pregnancy and the state cannot restrict the procedure. In the third trimester, which encompasses the period after the point of fetal viability, the state may prohibit abortion as long as it is still permitted if the life or health of the mother is at risk."

I want restrictions.

If you really want to help "THE WOMEN’S HEALTH PROTECTION ACT OF 2015" is a good place to start. It would protect access to safe, legal abortion care for all women across the U.S. under the framework of regulations and limits recognized in Roe v. Wade—standards that seven in 10 Americans agree should be upheld.

P.S. Nice picture. You’re cute, and you’re right, you should have come out the closet when you were younger. Oh, well, you’re not alone. Sir Ian McKellen said the same thing.

"I regret and always shall that I didn't see the significance of coming out at a much earlier date because I think I would have been a different person and a happier one."

He’s cute, isn’t he?

 

You are so brave, calling for... laws that already exist.

 

Who said I was brave? What's wrong with holding that line?

 

Nothing. This thread is pointless.

 

secular
OK. i can understand your position now (and special thanks to others also chiming in, like Billvon)

so- why can't it be dependent upon location? it is something we tend to do regularly with other animals and species. MOST hunting regulations are location dependent.
this might seem crass to you, but it is very relevant, IMHO.

people tend to assign sanctity to life only when it is human: what about other life that is every bit as relevant to the ecosystem?
This is important, IMHO: why would you assign some special privilege to one fetus and not another? Anthropomorphic reasons? or is it because psychological reasons?

therein may lie the answer.
But what do i know, right? i tend to value all life... especially the more edible ones. (hyperbole and satire intended)

 

I did say that I was an atheist, didn’t I? But it’s a myth, Captain. We don’t really eat babies.

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