Iran: P5+1 Overcomes American Enemies, Achieves Nuclear Pact

One little clarification: The Shah was already there(since 1941)--Iran had a constitutional monarchy--------we just got rid of the democratic part of that.
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Personally, I think we owe Iran one big apology and should be working to compensate for our interventions.

 

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well than if your to damn lazy to even do the most basic of research before mouthing off and trying to start shit perhaps you should remain silent.

the defining 30 years of the relationship is a subtle thing? why is you defense always i'm to ignorant or to unintelligent to have known that. if you cannot be bothered to research a topic don't get involved in it.

 

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You do realize that that point was addressing ice's complaint rather than the obvious actual history, which is not really in question?

What am I saying? Of course you don't.

Geez, talk about trolling.

Or, the connection to the topic. Or grammar, even.

Anyway.

 

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Are you Iceaura’s mum? You have a habit of attempting to rescue Iceaura from the silly things he/she posts.
This wasn’t about me. It is about Iceaura’s assertion, that Iran has suffered 62 years of “severe and continual abuse”.

Well, Iceaura’s assertion is an overstatement and oversimplification at best. Iceaura went on to say the following:

There is a difference between 62 months and 62 years by the way.

Sixty two years is a lot of time and a lot of grudge material. So where is it? If everything you wrote was true and there were no mitigating circumstances, which there are, that only amounts to 8 years of grudge material. That still leaves more than a half century, 54 years to be supported with, you know, evidence. So, yes, really, where is the support for Iceaura’s assertion of 62 years of continual abuse?

And with the exception of Baby Bush’s Axis of Evil comments which occurred 13 years ago, those events occurred more than 27 years ago. Twenty seven years is a long time to hold a grudge too.

Well, instead of being shocked or amused, perhaps you should you should, you know, do some research and put your biases on a shelf and maybe then you can explain the missing 54 years of “constant” grudge material.

 

It is well known the US helped stage the Iranian coup and bring the Shah to power. That has been discussed in this thread. It was never an issue. And you would know that, if you had, you know, done your homework. Also as previously discussed, there was this little thing like the Cold War and a nuclear arms race and at this time American school children were being taught to duck and cover in response to a nuclear attack. Global nuclear war was a very real possibility then. A few years after the Iranian coup, nuclear war almost became a reality in the Cuban Missile Crisis. Humanity narrowly averted global extinction. So, yes, the US aided an Iranian coup in order to prevent a Soviet presence in the region. And 62 years latter people are still citing the coup as the genesis and backbone of current Iranian hatred toward the US, thus provoking my comment, 62 years is a long time to hold a grudge. And your mention of this incident is redundant, as the issue has already been discussed. This isn’t what Iceaura was asked to produce to support his/her assertion of 62 years of continual abuse.

Well, true to form, your allegations are overly generalized and overly simplified. And if true and unmitigated, only covers 8 years of the 62 years Iceaura asserted. As I previously wrote, events and relationships in this region are a little more complicated than some folks seem able to appreciate.

The US supporting the Iran-Iraq War….well no doubt the US didn’t object to the war. It had normal relations with Iraq during the period. But that doesn’t make the US responsible or culpable for Saddam’s Iranian war or his alleged use of gas. History shows Saddam’s decision to invade Iran was his and his alone. Saddam’s war was supported and financed by the Gulf States, not the US. The US was on good terms with most of Iran’s neighbors, but that does not make it complicit in the alleged gassing of Iranians. Do you have any credible evidence the US was complicit in gassing Iranians? If you do now is the time to show it. And hearsay doesn’t work in a courtroom and it won’t work here.

Yes, the US attacked Iranian oil wells, but only after Iran had laid mines in the Persian Gulf and one of those mines struck, damaged and almost sank a US naval vessel in international waters. That’s the part of the story you neglected to mention. I think Iran got off pretty easy. Attacking a US naval vessel in international waters is an act of war. Iran should be thankful it only lost a few oil wells.

Yes, the US accidentally shot down an Iranian passenger jet. The Iranian airliner did not follow normal commercial traffic protocol, it failed to identify itself as a commercial aircraft and the US mistook the Iranian commercial airliner as an Iranian military aircraft. While it was a tragedy, there were mitigating circumstances.

It was an accident. Iran’s commercial aircraft didn’t follow protocol or respond to hailing from the US naval vessel which shot it down. Additionally, the US naval vessel which downed the airliner (USS Vincennes) was on escort duty that day, and in the preceding days, its job was to escort and protect ships and shipping lanes in the region from Iranian attacks. Iran had mined the shipping lanes, and attacked naval vessels in the region including US naval vessels. A year earlier Iran fired a missile at a US naval vessel killing 37 sailors. In the days preceding the accident and on the day of the accident Iran had attacked the USS Vincennes. The US and its navy had good cause for concern and acted in self-defense. That isn’t unreasonable; unfortunately, Vincennes misidentified the Iranian commercial aircraft as an Iranian military aircraft and the Iranian aircraft refused warnings from the Vincennes and refused to identify itself as a commercial airliner, and that resulted in the downing of the airliner. Further, the US paid damages to the families of all aboard the Iranian commercial aircraft, but it never admitted wrong doing. I think the Iranian government needs to acknowledge its culpability in this unfortunate incident. Mistakes were made on both sides.

There were mitigating circumstances in each of the instances you referenced, with the exception of Saddam’s war on Iran which the US was not a participant, Iran was the first aggressor and the US responded to Iran’s aggression with aggression. You have greatly oversimplified events and misrepresented them. Your recall is rather selective and you presume facts not in evidence (e.g. US culpability in Iran’s gassing of Iranians). There are significant mitigating circumstances for each of the events you named coupled with some specious allegations. With the exception of Baby Bush’s comments, all of the events you cited occurred more than 27 years ago. Twenty seven years is a long time to hold a grudge too. Baby Bush made his “Axis of Evil” comments some 13 years ago. Thirteen years is a long time to hold a grudge too. Iran’s supreme leader is still spewing nasty rhetoric with respect to the US even unto this day. If being called the Axis of Evil is some great atrocity, I think you are living in a dream world.

So even if all the events you listed were completely true and unmitigated by fact and circumstance, which they are not, that leaves 54 years of unexplained “constant” material yet to be explained as Iceaura asserted. So where is it? Where is the other 54 years of grudge material?

Iran, being a Shite state and surrounded by Sunnis may be overly distrustful given it is and has been the odd man out in the Muslim community and the historical and very visceral animosity between Shite and Sunni Muslims. The US friendship with Iran’s historical foes might be the primal cause of Iranian distrust toward the US, not incidents in the Persian Gulf or the coup, or Saddam’s Iranian land grab. I think that is a far better explanation. And we cannot forget Iran isn't pleased with US sanctions and efforts to prevent it from obtaining nuclear weapons, that too is a likely reason for Iran's hatred of America. But that doesn't fill in the 54 year gap either. Given what Iran has done in the past, I think American concerns with respect to a nuclear armed Iran are well founded, and many nations including Russia and China share that concern.

And on a final note, I don’t see how name calling, blaming, and living in the past will help anyone but dictators like the supreme leader and ultra-nationalists on both sides and around the globe. If there is ever to be a new future and stability in the region, each side will need to learn to trust each other and that will take time. This agreement might be a first step in that direction. I hope it is. I think there are men of goodwill and peace on each side. Unfortunately, those moderate voices are being drowned by lobbyists and political ideologues.

It's rather ironic to see Sciforums ultra left to support a dictatorial theocracy which executes gays, represses women, and everyone else for that matter and attack the country which doesn't.

 

And if I don't - not fine, not ok. Take your troll stick and shove it.

That wasn't Joe's claim, and you know it.

That wasn't (and isn't, he's doubled down) Joe's "argument", and you know it.

Joe posted Foxlevel warmongering agitprop, set up to frame the Iranians as irrational and crazy and dangerous and impossible to reason with, and the US as reasonable and well motivated and trustworthy and justified in threatening military violence. I objected to it. You supported it. You trolled my objection.

You can't walk that back. Just quit doing it.

 

What it does is get rid of your attempt to frame the Iranian "grudge" as an irrational odd holdover from events that ended more than 60 years ago.

It doesn't take 62 years of continual abuse to do that. One major event from five years ago would do fine.

So the generations of abuse the US has visited upon Iran, right up until today (the latest round of sanctions, the instigation of terrorism and protection of terrorists across the Iraq border, the air suppression of Iranian response to border trouble, etc etc etc) are just piling on. Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Iran and read from WWII until 2015. You will not find a single year in which the US was not "meddling", as the term appears to be, significantly, in Iranian affairs. You will not find a decade in which some grudge-justifying event did not take place.

 

Oh, and just what did Joe post that could be even be remotely construed as "war mongering" exactly? Please be specific and provide the evidence to back your assertion. You are lying again Ice.

 

Your reference was an obfuscation. It didn't support your claim of 62 years of "continual grudge material". So now, are you changing your position from continual to generational? That sounds like you are backing off our original assertion. And just where is your evidence the US is instigating terrorism and protecting terrorists across the Iraqi border? Where is the US air suppression of Iran? You are just digging a deeper hole for yourself friend.

You do realize that countries attempt to influence each other every day. That's why they have diplomatic missions, that's why they talk to each other. Peacefully tying to influence each other, isn't normally considered a bad thing. It's what we all do every day. It isn't terrorism and it isn't illegal or untoward.

 

That wasn't a personal attack, that was an observation of fact. When Iceaura gets in trouble for making sill claims you always attempt to come to his/her rescue.

 

LOL, the only people trying to rewrite history here are your and Iceaura.

The US may have supplied reconnaissance to Iraq, but there is nothing immoral in that. Nor is there any evidence the US participated, prompted or otherwise involved in Saddam’s decisions to attack or in directing his military. But as I previously stated, even if you are absolutely correct, that still leaves a 54 year “continuous grudge” hole in Iceaura’s and now your assertion.

 

Well, then prove it.

We are not talking about those countries.

As previously discussed, that happened 62 years ago, sure it altered Iran’s for decades to come. But that was a singular secular event. That wasn't the continual grudge material Iceaura asserted.

Actually it wasn’t an argument. It was a challenge to prove Iceaura’s assertion which you are now backing.

No. You are attempting to set up a straw man. Sorry, it won’t work.

Hmm…if I am only interested in the wrongs of Republicans then why have I repeatedly taken on the ultra-left, with you and Iceaura being prime examples?

Nope, that is another straw man.

I assume you are referring the US led coup some 62 years ago. As previously pointed out, one must consider why the US did what it did and that has been explained to you. Leaders have to make judgments. The US acted to prevent what it perceived as Soviet expansion, who knows what life would have been like if the US had not instigated the coup? Life may have been better, it may have been worse.

The US acted to prevent what it perceived as Soviet expansion, who knows what life would have been like if the US had not instigated the coup? Life may have been better, it may have been worse. Neither you nor I have crystal balls. We don’t know if Iran would have been better or worse without the Shah. But you presume you know, at best that is hubris.

Another straw man…

 

Tense much there? Do you punch people in the face on your birthday, too?

Neither of those things is so. I was responding to that single point of joe's regarding the importance of the Shah issue. And that's it. It certainly features in the nationalist conscience of Iran. It's odd to see you pulling at this issue in this way.

I would love to see you demonstrate such a thing. I guarantee such an effort would make me... something or other. I can assure you I would have... words, perhaps, or... I don't know. I would certainly breathe, at least, while reading it. Normal physiology would continue. I might pass wind. Anything is possible. Press on, good sir.

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Your target is clear. Full speed ahead.

Ice, your paranoia is reaching a personal high. Calm down. It's pretty clear that none of the above is going on.

As bizarre angerposts go, this is one for the books. I would say something like are you really serious? but it seems that you are. I'm not sure how pointing out the significance of the Shah period to the national narrative of Iran is so offensive. I didn't say it was the only source of outrage and I even stipulated to your points - indeed, your whole direction, really. What is the gripe here? That, momentarily, I played no favourites between you and joe? Geez, I am sooo sorry about that.

Seriously, ice, there's no "walk back", no trick, no sekrit Lizardoid plot. My point was that the exploitation of Iranian oil by the Brits and US cannot fail to have a fairly large relevance to the story of the national Iranian outrage towards the US. And I'm not even sure that this is true. Are they still heavily pissed about it? I have literally no idea. If I may say, you really seem kind of obsessed with some kind of scheming directive on my part. Ice, simply put, there isn't one. If someone's behaving like a fool, I just come out and tell them so. Hell, I've told e-staff to their 'e-face' that they're unsuitable for their positions. I just don't care. And I simply could not be bothered to scheme through an internet hair-splitting so tiny and unimportant that it would require an electron microscope to locate my interest in it. It's just that simple. I have schemed for exactly nothing on SF, aside from the odd "Bestest Member" competition: and even then, only because I knew what the choice really should have been. So, again, there's no subterfuge, no trickery. Nothing.

I hope this will clarify matters, but cannot help smirking a little since I know it will not. Ah well. SF.

Looking forward to the succeeding delusion,

Geoff

 

Basically, that's an admission you can't back up your assertion.

 

By the by, 62 years is not a long time to hold a grudge, here, when the responsible bodies were getting their national resources at a rate not too unlike theft.

 

Sure there was. Aiding Saddam in his military assaults on his neighbors most definitely had immoral aspects, as did the US helping anyone (much less Saddam) to attack Iran, a country with which the US had no legitimate quarrel, but rather a large debt of reparations.

Joe, the US installed Saddam in the first place, and helped him in all his early adventures in dictatorship.

Now you're jsut being silly.

Start by quoting accurately - it's "continual", not "continuous", and it's "abuse" not "grudge" in post 62. Then if you somehow find Bell's exposition too difficult read the history of Iran I linked for you, on wiki. Or any history of Iran. There is no hole. There was the oppression under the Shah for decades, then the sanctions and CIA crap after the Revolution, then the US supplied and aided Iraq invasion and war, and then more sanctions and false flag operations and international harassment of various and significant kinds - and now threats of bombing and military assault in violation of signed treaty regarding nuclear power technology, which takes us from 1953 to yesterday without a break. Mixed in with all that is oil theft and manipulation by US corporations, propaganda efforts against Iranian government (remember wiping Israel off the face of the earth? the gunboat flap?), abetting of sectarian and tribal violence within Iran, and so forth. There isn't even a one year gap in there, in which the US was treating Iran ethically and honorably and without doing harm on purpose - I could have used "continuous" after all.

Which is a point, btw:

It sounds like you don't know what "continual" means, as well as misreading the post with the reference to "generations". Either that or you are once again just inventing pretexts for insults.

Never too busy to troll, are you. Again: Shove your troll stick.

Yes, they are. Both of them, and everything with them. Your misrepresentation of Joe's posting is understandable, because support of his actual posting is embarrassing, but there's no point in insisting on it. We can all read: Joe was, has been, and still is attempting to frame Iran's complaints against the US as an irrational and unreasonable grudge held over from Korean War era events, and you supported that attempted framing - deliberately.

Crazy, unstable, unpredictable, dangerous, incomprehensible, Iran - that's the current Kochworld frame, found all over the wingnut parade ground, intended to monger a war. It's a propaganda meme. it's not reasonable analysis. It doesn't belong on the forum.

 

Heh. I figured something would happen but, indeed, I did not predict this something.

Do you know what trolling is, Ice?

Can we? 'Neither of those things is so' refers to your equivocation of my point with Joe's. There's no argumentative line for you here. I think you have stepped outside the boundaries of English, nearly, because now you are responding to points I never made. That, I believe, is trolling. Again: stop, take a breath, and think. I realize from the below -

- that you feel quite strongly about this issue. But unfortunately, attempting to force my position into Joe's comments isn't going to work. At the least, quote the right quotes, all right? I'm going to give you some ammunition to work with here, so we can at least leave this wreckage behind, all right: I believe that the Iranian government is a dangerous theocracy and has supported terrorism in the ME and elsewhere. On that basis, I think applying the core belief of the NPT certainly applies. They don't deserve nukes, whether or not they're trying to obtain one. All right? This way, we can force the confusion back on the core issue. It is not a question of war versus your way.

Best,

Geoff