Cygnus X - 1 a BNS ?

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by RajeshTrivedi, May 22, 2015.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    http://burro.astr.cwru.edu/stu/advanced/stars_blackhole.html
    Black Hole Formation

    Current theory holds that black holes form in three main ways. The first is that if a star has more than nine solar masses when it goes supernova, then it will collapse into a black hole. The reason that a neutron star stops collapsing is the strong nuclear force, the fundamental force that keeps the center of an atom from collapsing. However, once a star is this big, the gravitational force is so strong that it overwhelms the strong nuclear and collapses the atom completely. Now there is nothing to hold back collapse of the star, and it collapses into a point (or, in theory, a ring) of infinite density.
     
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  3. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    Again you have taken something from a Kiddy stuff website......

    This reflects your absolute and abysmally low understanding of Physics....


    Paddoboy, Apply your mind (you have mind, but no knowledge)........and find out for yourself the direction of Nuclear force and the direction of Gravitational Pressure in the formation process of BH. Some cobwebs will go away from your grey unused matter.

    The website is very much in general form refers Degeneracy Pressure caused by Neutrons as Nuclear Force, because that is what resists the collapse, not the Nuclear Force which is per say attractive between nucleons.
     
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  5. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    Rajesh, I have been hard on paddoboy's debate tactics of late.., but in your above post, you begin with name calling and end with the above quote that appears to have been dredged up, entirely from your imagination! Now I did not read through the whole of the link referenced, but if you believe it supports your claims, provide a specific link or quote, that supports your interpretation of the author's comments and descriptions.

    It seems to me that even when some quoted professor specifically points out your error, you find some way to hear their comment, as agreeing with you.
     
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Kiddy website?

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    I certainly do not see it proposing anything as dumb, stupid or childlike as BNSs!
    Which will always be a rung or two up the ladder from your knowledge or lack thereof.
    Excuses, delusions of grandeur, insults stupidity, conspiracies, unsupported claims, spitting the dummy, you continue to show that you are a total troll and crank, who cannot live with the fact that his paper has been totally rebuked and invalidated.
    Let me be your guiding light again.
    Matter that secumbs to a BH, is spaghettified and torn apart, finally being broken down into its most basic fundamentals, thereby seeing gravity overcoming all other forces including the strong nuclear.
    The web site very much supports my claim that as matter approaches the center of a BH, gravity overcomes all other forces.

    Let me again point your idiotic and agenda driven opinion in the right direction.....
    http://www.calpoly.edu/~rechols/6edastro102/astro112ch21sol8th.html
    Neutron degeneracy pressure arises when neutrons are so close that their quantum states begin to overlap. Since no two fermions, neutrons in this case, can occupy the same quantum state, a pressure results. The combined pressure from neutron degeneracy pressure and the strong nuclear force prevent further gravitational collapse of a neutron star if the remaining supernova core (neutron star) is less than 2-3 solar masses. In a white dwarf star it is electron degeneracy pressure that is preventing gravity from collapsing the star. In this case the upper mass limit is 1.4 solar masses which is better known than for the case of a neutron star (see 30. below)
    http://www.calpoly.edu/~rechols/6edastro102/astro112ch21sol8th.html

    Even you in your troubled agenda driven state should be able to work out from that little statement, what a BH will then do.
    [I won't be holding my breath though].
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    My debate tactics?
    My debate tactics as you call them, will continue.
    I would suggest though that in your attempts at "being hard"on my style of debating, you rather look at the message and validity of what I'm trying to convey, without any unecessary pedant of course.
    In the meantime, it appears you will gain support from those that are less than reputable, particularly with their attitudes concerning me.

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    You could also if you have the time, go back with regards to my many exchanges on this forum, and try and find where I am the initiator of any mud slinging and insults. Sure. I return them when they are directed at me, as do many others. But I have rarely started them.
    That may differ from your style, but then again, we are two different people are we not?
     
  9. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    Fair enough !!

    First let me try to put in my words, if you are still not convinced, I will try (why try ? because this is a general concept, not something specific) to get some reference or politely seek Tashja's help.

    Strong Nuclear Force: (in the context of formation of NS/BH....not infalling)

    1. Is between n-n, p-p and p-n which is much stronger than Gravity (1o^36 times) and quite stronger than Electrostatic force (around 100 times). This force is essential to keep the nucleons together despite electrostatic repulsion between protons of nucleus. It is attractive in nature.

    2. Gravitational Force (inward Pressure) is collapsing in the context when NS or BH are getting formed.

    3. Now the third component...that is degeneracy pressure......it is simply derived from Pauli's Exclusion Principle (that gives various Fermi Energy levels) and Uncertainty principle, as dx is reduced due to contraction, dp (momentum) increases and thus the outward pressure also increase. This degeneracy pressure is called EDP (Electron), in case of WD and provides Hydrstatic Balance against Gravity Pressure..

    4. If still the Gravity inward pressure is more than the EDP outward, then these electrons are capture by protons to form Neutrons, now the core is fully of Neutrons, and their Fermi Energy Levels and momentum pressure comes into picture in the form of NDP. At this stage there is very less of protons in the core only neutrons in abundance. So there is no Electrostatic repulsion which could have provided counter to Gravity...so whatever we call as Strong Nuclear force is only between n-n.....and the direction of this Strong Nuclear Force is attractive, which is not opposing the collapse.

    So if you get into details of NS formation, the limiting upper mass may be slightly less than what the NDP calculations offer...simply because of this Nuclear Force direction in support of Gravity.

    PS: So where is the question of Strong Nuclear Force getting overcome by the Gravity during formation of NS or BH ? The website author feels that if he writes the correct word NDP, he will have to explain more, so as an illustration he is calling NDP / EDP as Nuclear Force. The implied meaning is understood by those who know the subject, but there will always be some people who will get latch on to this river like analogy. Thats why I said kiddy stuff, not worth arguing when people are attempting to discuss far more complex issues.
     
  10. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for being my guiding light.......pl throw some more light, sir Paddoboy...

    1. What is SECUMB ? Spelling mistake ?

    2. What is spaghettified ? Sir, pl give scientific word for the same.

    3. How material is broken down into its most basic fundamentals ?? Sir, last time we had brown-sugar together in that dingy bar, still some hangover ?
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    You can deny any thing you like Rajesh.

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    It only reflects on your limited understanding of terminology and your lack of knowledge and reasoning.. You have proven on this forum that you are no more then a conveyor of pseudoscience and lies, evident by the eventual removal of your threads to the fringe. Enjoy!

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  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    The direction of this strong nuclear force certainly is attractive, [as is gravity]
    But you seem to be oblivious or just plain ignorant to the fact that in the critically curved spacetime that makes up a BH, tidal gravitational effects see Neutrons "ripped apart" so overcoming the strong nuclear force that I have continually told you.


    Two more errors of total fabricating of pseudoscience by yourself that needs explaining. As mentioned in the link, he talks of both NDP and the strong nuclear force, which you seem unable to grasp, and secondly, the implied meaning is as intended for any normal person with out a troubling agenda.......
    "The combined pressure from neutron degeneracy pressure and the strong nuclear force prevent further gravitational collapse of a neutron star"

    In actual fact, the only quandary we have in the many threads you have participated in, is if [1] you genuinely are misunderstanding what people say and/or just not understanding at all, or [2] whether all this is just a continued purposely arranged ruse, to try and fool people into what the experts did mean by twisting and mangling, in the same way you tried and fool the mods by posting in science in the first place.
    The first you could be forgiven for, afterall we all can't be up to the required standard, the second just reveals you as a fraud.
     
  13. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    Thats goofy, then.......
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And all the other Professors are also goofy, and this forum forum can be thankful for having you onboard!

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    Whatever Donald.

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  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghettification
    Spaghettification

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For the computer programming term, see spaghetti code.

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    Tidal forces acting on a spherical body in a non-homogeneous gravitational field. The effect originates from a source to the right (or to the left) of the diagram. Longer arrows indicate stronger forces.
    In astrophysics, spaghettification (sometimes referred to as the noodle effect[1]) is the vertical stretching and horizontal compression of objects into long thin shapes (rather like spaghetti) in a very strong non-homogeneous gravitational field; it is caused by extreme tidal forces. In the most extreme cases, near black holes, the stretching is so powerful that no object can withstand it, no matter how strong its components. Within a small region the horizontal compression balances the vertical stretching so that small objects being spaghettified experience no net change in volume.

    Stephen Hawking[2] describes the flight of a fictional astronaut who, passing within a black hole's event horizon, is "stretched like spaghetti" by the gravitational gradient (difference in strength) from head to toe. However, the term "spaghettification" was established well before this.[3]
     
  16. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    Paddoboy,

    Your problem is different. Your curiosity coupled with easy availability of material on web, has made you a Dangerously Knowledgeable Man !!

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  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Still the problem with you remains doesn't it? Pseudoscience does seem to be your go.

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  18. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    Everything is following the natural path, freefall, and when things start to come apart due to delta tidal accelerations, spagetified, also depends on how they're bound together. For humans it's about a microsecond before they reach r=0 since we're bound by the electromagnetic force. This is the prediction I made available for Rajesh. For the falling neutron star it will be even later since the neutron star is bound by the strong nuclear force which is 1000 times stronger than the electromagnetic force. This is what I hoped Rajesh would be able to figure out based on the derivations I made available to him. It's possible for stars to be ripped apart as they approach the black hole because they are only gravitationally bound. With the gravitational force being very weak compared to the other two forces of nature. This has been witnessed several times by the Hubble Space Telescope. The gravitational field, tidal field, is the same field gravitational waves propagate. So the gravity waves experiments are trying to detect miniscle movement between test mass. The same motion associated with tidal accelerations in spagetification.
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Nice brucep.....Our friend was insinuating that I made the term spaghettified up and was trying to take me to task over it.

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    Just as the term "Black Hole" itself was coined many years ago by John Wheeler from memory...He thought it was easier then continually referring to them by their proper name, of "Gravitationally completely collapsed objects"
    A mouthful to say the least. Spaghettification was coined around the same era, maybe Hawking?.
    But as per usual, no retraction, no apology,no recognition, no nothing.

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    We refer to such persons in Australia, short and sweet by saying...."You can't educate mugs!"
     
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  20. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    Its pity that these two posters Brucep and paddoboy are not able to understand the difference between...

    1. Formation of Black Hole due to gravitational collapse.
    2. Accretion of mass by an existing formed Black Hole.

    This so called kitchen term spaghetitification is for the accretion material falling towards an existing BH, it has got nothing to do with the formation aspect persay.

    Secondly these guys are still not able to understand that nuclear force during the formation of BH is in the same direction as in the gravitational pressure (compaction) direction, its supporting the collapse so there is no question of overcoming the nuclear force.......Is it so difficult for Brucep to understand this basic Physics ? Yes, surely for Paddoboy, its complex.

    Thirdly this Brucep attachment with time taken from r = EH to r = 0 is persisting academic foolhardiness, he does not know what it means when he says that for human it takes microsecond to reach to r = 0.....WTF is microsecond inside EH ? When it has no connect with the time outside.....taking salvage in talking out proper time and coordinate time is all nonsense when the time itself is undefinable with respect to time what we perceive and appreciate. He can't define what is 1 microsecond of a BH is equal to that of Earth ?? So whats the fun in talking about this nonsense repeatedly. The very same guy calculated for 1billion solar mass to take 72 Hrs, what is this 72 Hrs = 3 Days ? or eternity ?? They can't answer that.....bookish knowledge, without application of mind....

    PS :
    1. See how the Gravitational time dilation thread was trolled and crapped by these guys, the attempt was to understand this variable nature of time only.

    2. See how the Warping of Spacetime thread was trolled and crapped by these guys, the attempt was to see what drags or warps, when we call frame dragging of spacetime.

    3. See how the new thread on Translation Movement of a BH is trolled and crapped by these two guys, the effort was to understand the nature of all the fields/forces around vanished mass.

    The contribution of these two members is just to screw up and troll the threads with non sensical copy paste or general trash....nothing but pure nuisance value...And possibly admitted lack of deeper understanding of the subject on the part of a particular Mod, gets them appreciation that they have given the great answer...my foot.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
  21. RajeshTrivedi Valued Senior Member

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    Very true, You cannot educate a mug....I failed miserably to educate you. I do not feel bad because a mug cannot be educated.
     
  22. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    It's a shame you do not take a course in modern cosmology.
    Trying to get out from under again?
    Either way, it all undergoes gravitational collapse in either scenario.
    No one said it did. This is just another example of you not knowing what you are talking about, having never heard the well known phrase spaghettification, and making a fool of yourself again.

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    Except you are wrong again, and as was pointed out by a couple of professors.
    Let me again inform you in no uncertain terms, as mass is swallowed by a BH, and as it approaches the BH center, the gravitational force [actually tidal gravity effects] disassemble the matter into its most basic components.
    This is an example of extrapolating reasonability and common sense to beyond the EH.

    when gravity overcomes the nuclear force - carl sagan
    All these accusations coming from someone who has so far [1] denied BH exists, [2] Denied the concept of compulsory collapse once Schwarzchild radius is reached, [3] denied gravity obviously and naturally overcomes all other forces inside a BH, by the very definition of BH, [4] Has problems visualising nonlinearity and the fossil field concept, [5] denies that logical conclusion [as supported by the experts] that we can logically and reasonably assign angular momentum to a BH and its mass by the properties existing external of the EH,[6[ denies any photon emitted directly radially away just this side of the EH, will hover there forever, [7] Is unable to accept the validity of all frames of references as verified by SR, [8]claims GR is wrong, [9]has put in less then 12 months perusing of cosmology, [10] yet claims to no more then the many professional experts we have had,[11] cannot let go of the crazy nonsensical BNS, and [12] sees no value in any reputable links as given many times to refute his nonsense.
    That will do for the time being.

    You are again raving like a lunatic. Your threads were all crapped by one person...yourself. Reasons being you can not accept what the experts are telling you, along with those on this forum, and many reputable links.
    Your continued railing against common sense, your dishonest methodology in trying to sneak in and "validate" your BNS in every thread, and your constant sniping, insults, delusions of grandeur, adding up to a general consensus of stupidity, is why your threads have been moved and locked.

    Again, my claims have all been supported by reputable links, and obviously to anyone that may not totally be aware of the exact facts, that logically trumps your claims.
    Understand?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    No, I'm no mug, your the mug. I saw through you from the word go, from your very first thread. And it has been a game ever since on your part.
     

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