Immigration: Obama crosses the Rubicon, alea iacta est

Slaves.

 

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Not exactly - paid field hands: first local reds, then yellows from China and Japan, then browns from Hindustan and the Philippines, then red/browns from Mexico. That last source became significantly illegal over time, as racial pressures worked to limit the influx of a non-white citizenry by law, while the economic necessity drew the people anyway.

 

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Actually, you need to read your American history. Slavery predates illegal immigration. It really is that simple. We had centuries of slavery long before we had illegal immigration. The immigration of the “yellows” wasn’t made illegal until 1882. Mexicans were very early immigrants to the US; their immigration precedes the immigration of Chinese, Japanese, and Hindustanis and from the Philippines.

 

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Not in California. The location being discussed was California.

In California paid field hands of various kinds and legalities and status picked the fields before the current population of illegals was hired. Not slaves.

 

Oh, and when was the conversation limited to California, when you realized you were wrong?

Illegal immigrants are not confined to California.

 

When cosmictraveler, the poster and in the post you were "correcting" with your misinformation, asked about pjdude'ss reference to California specifically: posts 99 and 100 of this thread. You quoted post 100.

 

The thread has always been about illegal immigration, it has NEVER been restricted to just California. You are trying to cover your ass.

Heads up Ice, California isn't the only state with illegal aliens. Do you really think people are that dumb?

You didn't say anything about California prior to getting your nuts in the wringer.

 

The exchange you quoted and posted your misinformation in specifically referenced California.

And California is not the only State or other agricultural region in which illegal immigrants replaced other paid field hands, rather than slaves. That situation is quite common - more the norm than anything. Slavery was replaced by legally paid work, and then machinery, in most slave areas.

 

Bullshit, Georgia isn’t California. One statement by PJ does not a conversation make. Cosmic asked the question, who did the work prior to illegal migrants? There wasn’t any qualifier. He didn't confine his question to just California. And why would he? The answer wouldn't be relevant to his argument. Throughout the entire thread this discussion has never been limited to only illegal migrants in California. Frankly, the idea is silly and stupid. Because the issue is a national issue. It isn't just a California issue. You are being very disingenuous.

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/immigration-obama-crosses-the-rubicon-alea-iacta-est.143193/page-5#post-3276946

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/immigration-obama-crosses-the-rubicon-alea-iacta-est.143193/page-5#post-3276942

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/immigration-obama-crosses-the-rubicon-alea-iacta-est.143193/page-5#post-3277216

The bottom line is you got your privates in the wringer. Immigrants are doing the work former done by slaves. Agriculture in California didn’t come into its own until after The Great Depression and the public works which brought irrigation to the farmlands of California. California’s agriculture really didn’t get off the ground until WWII.

But contrary to your assertions, the answer is slaves. Before illegal migrant workers, slaves did the backbreaking work now performed by illegal migrants. Cosmic has maintained illegal migrants have taken and are taking jobs away from Americans and that simply isn’t true. We need these illegal migrants. It’s way past time that we admit that fact and treat them with the respect they are due.

 

Even if you pretend that post 100 was not a direct response to post 99, and my response mentioning specifically immigrant labor from China and Hindustan and others across the Pacific was not obviously in reference to California and a continuation of the exchange in 99 and 100,

as you insist on doing, because you have a gap where your intellectual integrity should be,

your assertion was and is false. Illegal immigrants to the US did not replace slaves, in the majority of cases.

For starters, illegal immigration directly replaced slave labor in slave States only, which represent only a minority of the illegal immigration into this country. Here's a map of the accumulated illegals: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ap_illegal_immigrant_population_by_state.html and a map showing the slave States: http://www.battleatcharleston.com/civil-war-map.png
In almost all regions, even (eventually, generations after legal slavery) former slave States, illegal immigrants replaced legal paid labor. This was particularly and obviously the case in the West, where the common border with Mexico's semi-feudal hacienda setup and the direct ocean access to the oppressed underclasses of the Philippines and Orient provided the routes for both legal and then (as labor costs came under pressure and a suitable pretend concealment among legals became easier) illegal immigration, while the demand for agricultural and similar labor not replaceable with machinery was highest compared with the supply.

(Cheap domestic field hands were far more easily found and controlled in former slave States, reducing the demand for illegals, and the routes across the Caribbean provided mostly black people - an unattractive option, considering the local situations in the Confederacy.).

There are two major pathways to illusion when riding on the error of imagining illegals moving in as slavery was banished: its diminishment of the historical role of capitalist oppression of legal wage labor by economic and political means, and its diminishment of the role of illegal labor importation as among those means.

 

LOL, LOL, you referenced Mexico, not California. You do know the Mexican border extends beyond California? Well, actually, you probably don’t.

LOL, oh so now rather than your previous absolute assertion, it’s “in the majority of cases”. I cannot be right and wrong at the same time. You are contradicting yourself again Ice.

I hate to tell you this Ice, but your referenced maps are inconsequential to this conversation. Slavery was abolished in 1865. The fact is slaves did the low wage jobs, the jobs no one else wanted, before illegal aliens came into the labor market. Your maps are irrelevant to this discussion.

And you seriously think that makes sense? It certainly doesn’t change the fact that slaves filled the labor niche which was subsequently filled by illegal immigrants. And it certainly doesn’t prove your claims that slaves didn’t do the work illegal immigrants have historically done.

It’s pretty apparent you know absolutely nothing about illegal immigration in this country. The first law barring immigration was passed in 1882 (Chinese Exclusion Act) and was brought about by a huge wave of Chinese immigrants. Prior to 1882, there were no illegal immigrants.

Ice you appear to get lost in data and unable to assess what is relevant and what isn’t or have the ability to assess the value and meaning of various pieces of information or what others are telling you. It’s a cognition problem. When did I say illegals moved in as slavery was banished? I never made that assertion. But you did, either through ignorance or deceit. It would be stupid to make such an assertion given slavery was eliminated in 1865 and the first law making immigration illegal was passed in 1882 and it was limited to Chinese immigrants.

The balance of your paragraph is gobbledygook. It doesn’t make sense. And nothing in any of your posts changes the fact that slaves once filled the labor niche now occupied by illegal immigrants. That is and has been my assertion and the assertion you have been arguing against.

 

I made an "absolute assertion" about California, to correct your misinformation in your reply to a post about California. It was correct. I made a qualified assertion about the majority of the US and the majority of illegal immigration in the US, to correct your misinformation in that context. Again, I was correct. You are not right and wrong, but simply wrong, throughout.

It is not true that illegal immigration replaced slavery in the US, in general. You are in error to insist on that historical sequence. Illegal immigration did not happen like that, in the US.

Only in slave States, and even in those States slavery was replaced by legal paid labor in those jobs - not illegal immigration. Illegal immigration came later, and illegal immigrants replaced legal paid labor in almost every case, situation, and region of the US.

I agree that your assertions were stupid - although I was too polite to say so, in my original and mild correction of your misinformation.

But since we now have agreement - the jobs being done by illegal immigrants were being done by legal paid laborers before the illegals were imported - cosmictraveler's question in post 100 has an agreed answer (legal paid laborers, not slaves) and the thread can move on.

You want to claim some other sequence of events, because you do not want to face the implications of legal paid labor disappearing and illegal imported labor taking its place. But that is the historical, physical, and economically significant situation in the US. That's what happened.

 

LOL, Ice how can you be taken seriously when you make such absurd claims?

Well, no on in this thread has made the claim illegal immigration replaced slavery. You seem to have difficulty understanding what is being discussed or the question which began this discussion.

At this point, despite having repeated it several times, you appear not to know what my assertion is.

Those jobs were also done by slaves, something you have consistently denied and that was my point. That is my assertion. It wasn’t all the crazy stuff you invented in your mind.

LOL, no, I just want some historical accuracy. Slaves did the jobs illegal aliens subsequently did. I made a simple and truthful assertion. You went off the deep end. There is nothing wrong with my “sequence of events”. Slavery existed before illegal immigrants. It’s just a simple fact Ice.

As for illegal immigrants displacing legal resident workers, I haven’t seen any evidence of same. If you have some evidence, please do show it. You haven’t shown it thus far. But that is a separate issue. There really isn't anything to avoid. It's another one of those simple facts.

We need immigrants. This country was founded upon immigration. With employment now approaching “full employment” and with a changing demographic, a declining work force participation rate, we need immigrants even more today and tomorrow than in the past.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ib_18.htm#.VPabrMJ0zmQ

 

Great. Then when I point out, in answer to the question posed by cosmictraveler in post 100, that before there were illegal immigrants doing the field work in California - or in the US in general, if you choose to claim he was talking about that - the work was being done by paid legal labor, not slaves, I won't get any more flak about it.

The problem is, that claim is false.

I posted a map. Go back and look at it. It shows the distribution of illegal immigrants now, and the distribution of slaves then. The only places where illegal immigrants can possibly, physically, have taken over the jobs formerly done by slaves are in the places where there were slaves doing those jobs. This is physical reality, we're talking about. Everywhere else, illegal immigrants replaced legal paid labor for all jobs.

So you haven't seen any evidence that roofs were shingled, apples picked, lawns mowed, streets paved, hospitals cleaned and patients cared for, janitor work accomplished, beds made in hotels, dishes washed, and so forth and so on, in - say - the States of Illinois, California, Wisconsin, New York, New Jersey, Oregon, Michigan, Colorado, Minnesota, etc etc etc, until after the arrival of enough illegal immigrants to accomplish those tasks as they are now being accomplished by illegal immigrants?

 

Actually, you had better go back and read Cosmic’s post #100. Nowhere in that post does Cosmic reference California, you either ignorant or disingenuous or perhaps both.
Cosmic’s Post #100:
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/im...con-alea-iacta-est.143193/page-5#post-3277216

Oh, are you denying slavery existed? What do you think all those slaves were doing in the South if not working in the fields? Were slaves purchased just for esthetics?

Your map wasn’t relevant the first time you posted it and no matter how many times you reference it, it will still not be relevant. The map you posted was about a hundred fifty years after the fact. It isn’t the slightest bit relevant. It has nothing to do with slaves and the work they did.

Again, it isn’t relevant. That isn’t the question Cosmic posed. I suggest you read Cosmic’s post #100 again. But frankly, I just don’t think you have the intellectual horsepower necessary to understand it.

 

Is anyone out there still thinking that joe is making sense? If so, say so and I will reply to post 115 and continue this bizarre "discussion". If not, I'm dropping it here.

 

LOL, instead of pleading for help, how about admitting you are wrong? What is bizarre about the fact that before illegal aliens worked the nation's fields, slaves worked those fields?

 

Although this is true, what is also true, are the descendants of both the slaves and the illegals who worked those fields, are much better off than the descendants of those who remained in African and South America. The slaves and the illegals who worked those fields in the past, paid it forward, so their children's children would be much better off. The poorest USA government dependent black person could live like the upper class in Africa, with flat screen TV's , internet and cells phones.

I doubt whether any of the descendent of the slaves would choose to go back to Africa, other than to visit, even though they have that choice. America made it possible for the people of the past to pay it forward. The counties of origin are not set up that way.

Technically, the slave owners, unknowingly, made it possible for the descendent of the blacks to avoid the attrition of Africa. Maybe the modern blacks have a debt to pay, since they gained more than their brothers in Africa. Count your blessings and honor the past and stop making it appear nothing was paid forward.

 

Oh hell, one more time:

It's not "bizarre", it's just false.

For starters, slaves only worked the fields in the slave States, and not all the fields even there. That makes a fairly small, minor fraction of the nations fields now or ever worked by illegals.

And for years after the slaves were banished the people working the fields were paid legal laborers everywhere in the US, including the slave States.

So before illegal immigrants were imported to work in fields, those fields were being worked by legal paid labor, in the US. Likewise in every other job category now filled by illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants replaced legal paid labor, in every job they do, everywhere in the US.

This is obviously, physically, incontrovertibly true in the non-slave States, in which the great majority of illegals work. It is also historically the case in the slave States, since slavery was banished decades before illegal immigrants were imported to those States.

It's physical reality. Deal with it.

 

LOL…well what were those slaves doing…spending their time in a day spa? And you have contradicted yourself yet again. You said you were going to let this lay if you didn’t get anyone to help you support your position.

“And not all the fields were even there” well where he hell were they…on vacation in the Rivera? And how is that even relevant? It isn’t. And “for starters” at one point every state in the Union was a slave state. Slavery was practiced in all the Northern states as well. Eventually, slavery was abolished in Northern states. But that doesn't negate the fact slavery was a universal practice at one time in the nation's history.

The unpleasant fact for you is slaves did the work illegal immigrants do now. Slaves worked in the fields. They worked in homes as domestic servants…the same roles immigrants now fill. And “for starters” at one point every state in the Union was a slave state. Slavery was practiced in Northern states as well.
The unpleasant fact for you is slaves did the work illegal immigrants do now. Slaves worked in the fields. They worked in homes as domestic servants…the same roles illegal immigrants now fill in the American economy.

Slaves weren’t banished. The institution of slavery was. There is a difference. What happened after the institution of slavery was banished isn’t relevant to the question which was posed or the answer that was given. But after slavery was banished, it was a very chaotic period. Some slaves worked for their former owners. Some were given plots of land taken from slave owners. And others went to work as tenant farmers and sharecroppers. Most became tenant farmers and sharecroppers. But again, that isn’t relevant to the question which was asked and answered.

As I said before, I don’t think you have the intellectual horsepower to wrap your head around this Ice, but it isn’t relevant. Slaves filled the labor niche now filled by illegal immigrants. Slaves worked the fields, cleaned the homes and cooked the meals all the jobs how filled by illegal immigrants.

How about making some sense? I’ll make a deal with you, you make some sense and I’ll deal with it. You need to work on that very apparent cognition problem.