Well, right. But "optimal biome" includes things like "fungal infections" "skin disease" and "increased mortality." If your goals include freedom from such natural things as fungal infections and early death, some intervention in the natural order of things might make sense.
By optimal I mean optimal for the person not for the nature order. I don't see how we are really disagreeing. I'm for eating probiotics like yogurt if they help the person, and I'm even for fecal transplants for curing c. difficilis infections.
I don't think any one dies of "fungal infections" on the skin where soap is used. It is mainly in the lungs, I think and presumably you inhaled the bad fungus. "Skin disease" is essentially never fatal. Is there any evidence that the "natural order of things" I.e. washing without soap is as harmful or fatal as going to the hospital? In 2011 about half a million Americans got sick fromm C. diff. contracted there and 29,000 died from it. Hospitals use "broad spectrum" germicial agents that kill the normal "biome" (new word for me) or diverse set of bacterial in your gut, that was protecting you from C. diff; Did more than 29,000 die in 2011 from lack of "adequate" soaping? I'm not anti-hygiene. I just think doing it with water and scrubbing - not with modern chemical agents - they way man adapted to in thousands of years of evolution is better. Mother Nature and your body know what is best for normal mode of living - not doctors and pharmaceutical companies. Certainly they are useful in exceptional conditions like a broken leg or high fever, but for every day life, live like your distant ancestors did, especially run at least 15 minutes each day you don't swim 0.5 Km but don't follow their example of eating all you possible can, when food is available. They did that as there might not be any more in the next week. However, there is some evidence that periodic fasting is beneficial and many cultures do encourage that. SUMMARY (Although a little over stated): The best way to avoid C. Diff.is to avoid hospitals, doctors, and frequent use of soap. Be frugal - eat that small dry piece of bread etc that fell to the clean dry floor.
People with compromised immune systems (i.e. the elderly, chemo patients etc) can. Washing your hands can protect those people from deadly disease even if you are healthy. Probably. A great many diseases, from influenza/pneumonia (57,000 deaths a year) to salmonella (400 deaths a year) to norovirus (800) to EC O157 to adenovirus, can be avoided by handwashing. That is advice akin to "protect your children by not getting them vaccinated."
there is a mite of misinformation in this, IMHO with regard to Salmonella and the aged: it is not the biome that is the concern with regard to salmonella in the aged. it is the specifics of the weakened immune system and the age of the individual, which lessens the likelihood of survivability, increases the likelihood of transmission due to age, and the hosts specific inability to "limit the spread of infectious microorganisms from the intestinal tract to the bloodstream" . http://www.about-salmonella.com/sal...-exposed-to-salmonella-contaminated-zeppoles/ that link has a good quick overall POV on salmonella with regard to the elderly. the following, however, is extremely dangerous this can result in botulism which as far as i know is still fatal in almost all cases unless you can guarantee 100% of your utensils are brought to a degree high enough to kill 100% of bacteria and viruses (usually done in an autoclave) then you are simply taking a huge risk, especially if said utensils are being repeatedly used for food production, cooking or anything with access to any type of possible environment that would be beneficial for the growth and spread of micro-organisms, viruses etc. Even cooking is not capable of killing everything, especially if you are not cooking your entire utensils: and that doesn't even take into consideration the type utensils being used. Wood utensils can hide much because they tend to be more porous, for instance as for this is generally believed to be true by most new age/green fanatical type movements, and there is a limited amount of scientific literature that is out there on it. There may be some truth in that exposure to some bacteria etc can help develop immunity in youth and young adults, it is not a good idea with regard to the elderly nor is it really smart with regard to being healthy, IMHO. Mind you, i am of the opinion that exposure to a little dirt can't hurt at all, nor is it a bad thing to be more natural: i think a lot of the debate may center around the definition of the term "over washing" as well as establishing what type of regularity may be required for health as well as safety (as in: you can become infectious and transmit disease by being dirty... not necessarily a hazard for yourself, but definitely to others, youth and elderly around you.) @Dr. Toad you always end up in the most interesting conversations... you need to tell me how you do it?!?!
i disagree if your children are healthy and are regularly vaccinated, then exposure to a little dirt is not harmful and can be beneficial. at least, from a medical perspective - http://www.webmd.com/parenting/d2n-stopping-germs-12/kids-and-dirt-germs EDIT: another good demonstration of this fact: children who are allergic to pets actually do better when the house has pets in it than if you remove pets and keep them from exposure to animals... of course, this means within reason, too... not moving into a zoo or living with a zoo in your house with you and being unhygienic as well
The immune system does play the biggest role in fighting most all infections, yet a friendly intestinal biome is very important in some cases, like those that resist being cured unless a fecal transplant is given. That's inaccurate because botulism is an anaerobic bacteria and only flourishes in a sealed environment like a canned food item. Not really a big worry because any germs that are on my utensils are very likely from my own body since I cook and eat for myself. A friendly biome established on the skin will tend to fight off dangerous newcomers. Most people have not heard of this, but it has been mentioned by at least one scientist that I heard on public radio. Indeed I'm aware of the possibility of a carrier that is nonsymptomatic.
or cooking food Don't forget, "The bacterial spores that cause it are common in both soil and water. They produce botulinum toxin when exposed to low oxygen levels and certain temperatures. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism this can mean if you have transferred spores to your utensils due to being unclean, then they CAN cause a problem in your food when you cook it, especially if you don't insure that your food reached a level high (as well for long enough) enough to kill it Please note that you dont have to actually be eating food to get it either this means that you can also infect yourself unwittingly through transmission from soil, dirt and through flesh wounds where exposure to open sores through contaminated utensils is very possible (in fact, the less you clean, the more probable this will become) whatever floats your boat, man that means you never go outside, never leave a hermetically sealed environment with no possible external stimuli as well as no introduction to any outside stimulus like: food i am offering friendly advice because it is possible to kill a person with food poisoning, and that cleanliness is almost vital in a kitchen especially with regard to the food that you consume That is why the health department doesn't allow restaurants to be nasty or use cross contaminated items http://www.foodsafety.gov/keep/basics/clean/index.html if you want to believe your own bodily microbes are never going to hurt you, then you can continue to believe that just remember e.coli is native to your body too can you cite and link some sources? this seems a little far fetched in light of certain other known factors about disease vectors as well as the spread of chemical, biological and deadly agents... now, i know that your personal biome might be fighting for survival, but i am not sure that a host is always considered in said fight (e.coli comes to mind again) unless you can give me definitive proof that a personal biome is actively aware of the host, considering it's welfare and more then i am going to stick with the health department guidelines for cooking you can believe what you want... but IMHO, actively talking/posting about being filthy and not cleaning your own food utensils is rather, erm.. nasty No matter how you look at it, you are bucking the odds the odds are definitely not in your favor for long term health, either, considering such practices EDIT: the actual virus, bacteria or fungus does not have to kill or hurt you directly either there are other ways for it to cause injury or death, such as: http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Bacterial Meningitis so as with the case of botulism, just because introduction of botulism into a wound is not immediately fatal, doesn't mean you should never worry about it that is also true of other vectors/means of transmission of other types of disease, virus, bacterial or fungal poison or problems
What problems, Stumpy? Besides being a filthy pig, of course.. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Just not sure if i am being TROLLED or this person believes what he is saying! i mean... considering my background and knowing full well that the medical literature (not to mention the law and Forensic literature) is full of introductions of bacteria, virus, fungus and chemical agents among other things through various means normally considered accidental (although some proven to also be intentional) then it shocks me that a person would consider themselves "safe" because it is their own biome they are being filthy with... i mean... it's not like they are living in a bubble or anything now, i am not saying a little dirt is gonna kill us all i am not OCD i AM, however, very aware of the various means and ways that NAture can easily kill us through stupidity and intentionally thumbing your nose in such a manner as above seems to be begging for a Darwin award mind you that is IMHO and offered as that only... but MAN! WTF? really?
Consider the possibility that misinterpretation of intent and meaning occurred when you read Dr. Toad's post.
whereas there is always the possibility of misinterpretation, i am not sure how that applies to the following and taking just those comments into consideration, it is hard to know if it is a troll comment or a true one if it is a true one, then the person is really trying to be unsanitary and is simply playing the odds game hoping not to die or get violently sick... likely there is a lot of issues already being exacerbated behind the scenes due to the cleanliness issue but no matter what... there is a reason that it is unsafe, and that is because, simply put, there is more than one way to skin a cat! and that old saying applies to how a person can get sick from introduced bacteria, virus or fungus (or chemicals). Ingestion, Inhalation, puncture, insects, eyes, absorption... now consider that the kitchen is a breeding grounds for a lot of things that could be bad for us... taking such a risk intentionally with cooking and eating utensils is simply asking for a Darwin it is only a matter of time... it is not even a matter of IF... only WHEN if it is a not a true comment... well... it needed to be shown that it is a DANGEROUS way to live for ANYONE again, that is not a matter of opinion so much as it is an intentional playing the odds in the hope of winning against a stacked deck. you might be OK today, but eventually that is going to catch up to you and it is FAR more likely to be very, very bad considering the practices being described
OK, the misinterpretation is all mine. Your post #52 appeared to me be accusing Toad of trolling. I now see you were referring back to elte's posts. Sorry to needlessly divert you.
Not a problem... it is good sometimes to re-evaluate your comments for clarity elte why? because i offered some good medical and hygienic advice about cleanliness vs being careless with regard to hygiene ? or are you upset because i am speaking out against your choice with regard to hygiene ? Neither are trolling. I am offering a counterpoint to your choice to remain filthy. Look... not that it matters one whit to you (or most anyone else) but i've had experience in this particular area in more ways than one. i happen to be very aware that biological agents are dangerous to fool around with, that being unclean can have fatal results, that ignoring basic hygiene can introduce pathogens, bacteria, viruses, chemicals and more into the body in a various number of ways, from open wounds as simple as a light scratch to ingestion, inhalation and more But even disregarding that, my POV is EASILY researched with a 2 second Google search and supported by science Then add into the mix the facts that you are making judgement calls about botulism that are unfounded (you really think that the only thing you have to worry about is canned goods? seriously?) AND you are making personal choices that are going to eventually backfire on you, then in what way am i "trolling" by offering good OT advice supported by science? The conversation is on topic: you choose filth over cleanliness and want to promote it as a viable option with anecdotal evidence I choose cleanliness over filth and linked supporting evidence from science to health
No because you fail to realize that not everyone has the best of living conditions available to them and still do the best they can. I'm sure I'm not the only one who never made it in the world and who has no real choice in how they do things. I've been getting by with my system for twenty years now and though you think it is a risk, trying to live like everyone else is more of a risk to me. I know what I have to do to survive, and your high horse talk can't change that. Besides you thought you refuted my points, and you've done no such thing. Appeals to authority don't hold water with me. I have nothing more to say to you about the topic, good day.
Besides again, you are certainly guessing wrongly about what I do based on the little I've told you. Your posts have shown that you think you understand, yet you clearly don't. So be it; you don't deserve to know.
