Ukraine "Ceasefire" Near Collapse

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Yazata, Nov 7, 2014.

  1. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.mindserpent.com/American_History/introduction/footnotes/ft_alaska.html

    They had no right selling the land to Americans and the entire deal was illegal.
     
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    oh pray tell how in the seven hells do you come to that conclusion? a country has any and every right to sell its territory should it chose and they did. go read the treaty proclemation. russia had the right to sell it and they did. you infantile attempts to rewrite history don't change that.

    yes i've read that link all it does is state that russian belive the same shit you do. that doesn't make it fact. because it isn't the fact remains russia viewed keeping alaska a poor choice so they sold it. its really cut and dry. your lies don't really change the facts
     
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  5. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Russia was sold illegally and it should be returned!
     
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Nov 9, 2014
  8. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    russia wasn't sold. its over seas territory was. and again how was it illegal. you have you gone so far as to start gibbering without even trying to manufacture new facts like you usually do. it was sold legally as the treaty i posted shows. and why should be returned because some lunatics like you demand it? please explain why the US should cede its sovereign territory to Russia for no reason?


    again i've given the actual treaty what exactly make you think the sale was illegal?
     
  9. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    It was not approved by the Russian senate.

    Alaska was and is a Russian territory, it needs to be returned back its motherland.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Come and get it

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  11. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    Russia was an absolute monarchy in 1867. Alexander the second was well within his rights to sell alaska.

    no it was russian territory. they sold it. it is american territory and will stay that way.
    your fucking nuts you know that. it for all intents and purposes is in its motherland. true settlment of alaska only happened after the US bought it.
     
  12. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    We need to restart this petition in White House: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/alaska-back-russia/SFG1ppfN

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...te-house-petition-to-return-alaska-to-russia/

    Return Alaska to Russia!

     
  13. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    6,465
    What we need is for some loyal blue-blooded Americans to stand along the Alaskan shoreline waving giant banners that read "Russia sucks!" while acting drunk, wearing stupid-looking fur hats and doing that goofy Russian sailor folk dance.

    Price of Alaska purchase: $8 million
    Price of poorly staged Vodka Olympics: $40 billion

    Congrats, losers. Meanwhile when America spends $40 billion, much of it goes to missile defense in Alaska to keep the droopy-eyed drunk Ruskies out.
     
  14. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    I think that's both true and false.

    Russia could defeat the Ukrainian airforce and seize control of the skies over that country. Russian armored columns could be in Kiev and other major cities within a few days. The amount of casulties would depend on what kind of defense the Ukrainians put up. It could be substantial. We might see tank battles on a scale that Europe hasn't seen since World War II.

    The real problems for Russia would start then. They would have to occupy a country the size of France, with a population 1/3 the size of their own. They would almost certainly face some kind of popular insurgency vastly larger than anything the Russian army ever faced in Chechnya. The demands on the Russian military would be huge and they would last for years, with no end in sight.

    Meanwhile, NATO would be scared half to death. The Europeans would finally get up off their complacent asses and large competent division-sized forces would be rushed to Poland's eastern border and into the vulnerable Baltics. NATO would probably aid the pro-Western Ukrainian partisans much as Russia is currently aiding its pro-Russian rebels. A new Cold War would result and nuclear threats would fly back and forth, raising the danger of nuclear war to the highest level it's been in decades.

    Putin knows this. That's why he hasn't opted to seize Ukraine in one bite, but has chosen the lower cost and less dangerous strategy of pressuring it incrementally, locally and through surrogates.

    But to suggest that Russian hands aren't all over the east Ukraine rebellion, or that it isn't being guided from Moscow, is ridiculous. My impression is that arms are steadily flowing from Russia into the Donbass and that Russian regular military personnel are moving back and forth freely. A few weeks ago, the intervention of Russian regulars seems to have been what saved the rebels from what looked at the time like certain defeat. After the ceasefire the regulars seem to have returned to Russian territory again. That's why these recent vehicle convoys are interesting. Is this the Russian army moving back into Ukraine, or is it a large-scale resupply effort intended to strengthen the rebels and make them better able to resist the Ukrainian army on their own?
     
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    The Russian Senate didn't exist then, neither did the Soviet Union or the Russian Federation.. oops.
     
  16. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Look yes Russian military advisers are present in East Ukraine and so are "volunteers" as well. But these are not the regular Russian military forces. As for heavy military equipment like the missiles launchers and tanks, these are not transferred to Donbass, simply because the entire region is too unstable for such equipment to be given to them. Small arms are given however, Russia does want to support its interests in the region and support its population there too.

    The Russian convoy thing in white truck is a PR move otherwise "From Russia with Love" and is not used to transport arms, it is used to transport basic life needs like food and shelter related. The entire idea of the white convoy trucks is to keep the Donbass rebels on the Russian side and not have them go entirely rogue.
     
  17. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    This isn't about the white trucks. These are clearly military movements.

    Novosti says that the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission has reported seeing a military convoy moving west on highway H-21. It consisted of 19 green Kamaz military trucks, with no markings or number plates, covered but apparently carrying men in military clothing. Each one was towing a 122mm howitzer. These vehicles were accompanied by 15 Kraz troop carriers.

    http://en.ria.ru/world/20141109/195...fied-Heavy-Weaponry-Convoys-Tanks-in-DPR.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
  18. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    And how did OSCE determine this is not Ukraine's military or one of their separate nationalistic ultra right groups?
     
  19. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    Today 9 Nov, the OSCE reports seeing two convoys of military vehicles near Donetsk, moving west, both consisting of 17 vehicles.

    The first was observed at 11:20 hours, in the vicinity of Sverdlove, 15 km east of Donetsk city. It consisted of 17 unmarked green Zil trucks, five of which were towing Grad multiple rocket launchers and two of which were loaded with ammunition crates. None of the trucks were carrying soldiers.

    The second was observed at 11:35 hours, on the H-21 road near Zuhres, 41 km east of Donetsk city. This one consisted of 17 unmarked green Kamaz trucks, 12 of which were towing 122 mm howitzers. No men were seen riding in the trucks.

    http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/126485
     
  20. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    5,909
    Probably because they were seen operating in areas controlled by the rebels.

    Here's the OSCE's Special Monitoring Mission in Ukraine's website.

    http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm

    See the 'spot reports' on the right side of the page for very timely reports on what the observers have observed, sometimes just hours earlier.
     
  21. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    Something seems to have broken loose in Eastern Ukraine in the last several days. First, the rebels once again attacked the Donetsk airport, which the Ukrainian army has been doggedly defending. There were conflicting claims for several days by both sides regarding who controlled it, and now the Ukrainians are saying they've withdrawn their forces.

    Ceasefire talks have been underway for several days and yesterday there was hopeful news that negotiators from both sides had reached a new agreement (not unlike previous agreements that fell apart).

    But the news today (Saturday Jan 24) is that the rebels' leaders rejected the ceasefire agreement negotiated by their own representatives. There are reports today suggesting that something larger may have broken out, with reports of shelling by both sides all along the front and of armor and infantry attacking the Ukrainian army's Delbaltseve salient from several directions, northeast of Donetsk.

    http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136056

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/24/world/europe/ukraine-violence.html?_r=0#story-continues-2

    In Mariupol on the sea of Azov coast to the south, the rebels have launched heavy shelling using multiple-launch rocket systems. One barrage hit a crowded open-air market near a Ukrainian army checkpoint about 5 miles from the center of town and reports are that perhaps scores of civilians were killed and many injured, some critically.

    http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/136061
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2015
  22. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    5,909
    As of Monday Jan 26, there appears to have been no followup ground assault against Mariupol after the heavy multiple-rocket shelling of army positions (and a crowded civilian market) several days ago. Mariupol is the largest city in Donetsk oblast still in Ukrainian government hands, the port through which Donbass coal is shipped, and currently the de-facto capital of the province.

    But the Delbaltseve salient (a bulge of Ukrainian army held territory between the rebel cities of Donetsk and Luhansk) continues to be under attack. Reuters is saying that it's almost surrounded and that the road leading into Delbaltseve (a town of about 25,000) is taking rebel fire. There are questions about how long the Ukrainian army can hold out there without reinforcements.
     
  23. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Mariupol will be taken at the politically appropriate time. The current fake "mourning" used as a disguise to regroup the Ukrainian army troops in Mariupol will not stop the rebel troops from advancing. It is all a question of time.

    Ceasefire agreements are just used by Kiev to give it time to regroup its troops. Strategic overall push out of NATO backed enemy back to Kiev will soon follow.
     

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