GM reduced its upper management, shut down Saturn, Pontiac, reduced the styles of Buick and shut down oldsmobile putting over 100,000 people out of work. GM now has about 200,000 or less working for it.
GM did more than reduce its upper management, it replaced it. Yeah, it did layoff people during the Great Recession as many other businesses did. And were it not for the bailout money from the federal government, many more jobs would have been lost, 1.5 million to be more exact. Loaning GM and Chrysler 80 billion saved the government 105 billion in tax revenues and many billions more in money it would have had to pay in unemployment and welfare benefits. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/09/autos-bailout-study-idUSL1N0JO0XU20131209 By the way, the "bailout" money has been repaid to the federal government and the government has turned a nice profit on the "bailouts", a 53.1 billion dollar profit. That is an 8.6% return on invested capital. Considering all the money it would have cost the government if it allowed these businesses to fail and the money it made by "bailing" (i.e. loaning money to the afflicted companies), I'd say it was a fantastic investment. http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/ And this is one reason why I find it difficult to call Republicans (i.e. conservatives) conservative. Because what they have done in the past and what they advocate doing is anything but conservative. It is reckless. It is profligate.
GM doesn't employ millions of people. Maybe 200,000 at best - most of those overseas. Joe basically argues we could never have ended Slavery because then millions of Slaves would be freed and they'd lose their jobs and starve to death.... oh, but millions of Slaves were freed and these freed Slaves actually didn't starve to death now did they? Nope. And this was at a time when racist White Americans owned most of the resources - namely food. Yet, they didn't starve to death. But get this, according to Joe's idiotic logic, we have to bail out the criminal banking families and incompetently run automotive firms not because this is the Democrip's trying to buy the Union vote, but because if we didn't, then everyone would lose their jobs and everyone would starve to death. Even though there's never been a period in history where we have had more social safety nets then now. This is all one big post-hoc crack of shit justification used by the richest Americans to shovel their debts onto what's left of the middle class in the largest wealth transfer in the history of the human race. Lucky for them, functionally illiterate America isn't about to do a damn thing about it. Amoorikans like raising their hand and asking permission to pee. So, they'll just keep doing what their betters tell them to do. Simple as that. Amoorika, Land of the Fleeced Home of the Slave
GM, Chrysler Bail Out Cost the US Government $9.26 Billion Not to mention, this means skilled labor is being inefficiently used by an incompetent automotive firm to make bloated cars and trucks no one wants - instead of being efficiently put to use developing the automotive technology of the future, possibly for another automotive firm, possibly starting up their own businesses. But hey, my father and tens of thousands of his buddies are happy to get their $5000 a month in pension plus wonderful health benefits. It's nice when you can retire at the ripe ole age of 47. Pretty much a mirror of the Baby generation and how it has abused the social system and then in 2008 outright stole from their kids, grandkids and great grandkids. We're only 6 years into the Greater Depression, let's see how things fair when QE4 comes around - I suspect we have decades more wealth to transfer from the middle classes up to the richest 0.01%. Then one of them can pose as 'Saviour' of the middle class and finish the job. Kind of like when the functionally illiterate all came out to wave their Made in China USA flags for that feminist progressive who shoved his cigar up a school interns vagina, or the idiot who choked on a pretzel or the demagogue who followed him. Slavelandia Land of the Fleeced Home of the Slave
The Greater Depression is only just getting started. The Federal Reserve has pumped trillions into our/their centrally planned, hyper-Regulated, crony economy. Banks don't even bother with looking to secure deposits from savers or finding good investment - nope. These first six years have created a shit ton of false prosperity (see equities) and many of the newly created jobs are in actually a misallocation of limited resources that will be corrected (probably in the near future). A good example is the oil markets. In our Idiocracy, incompetant centrally planned monetary policy has created an artificial boom in oil investment - now that oil boom has turned to a bust. Not only do we have the misallocation of resources (as is becoming evident) but crony car companies like GM are ramping up the SUV lines as Amoorikans get in line to start burning through shit-tons of limited oil, polluting the earth with that much more CO2 all due to more incompetence of our Central Planners. Finally, thousands of university students and other's tooled up to get jobs in the oil business - ALL of which will be gone. Leaving yet another generation of Americans with 6 figure debts and the wrong skill set. See? Joe can crap on all day long about JOBS - but in the real world, as reality reasserts itself, all we have are the richest 0.1% becoming the richest Caste in American history and what's left of the middle class shafted - again. Don't worry, as things get worse (and they will) the State will come sniffing around for money from those that have a bit left for the taxing. How's a 90% income sound for anyone making over $6000 a year? You know, for the Good of Society. After all, you DO use the roads don't you? Good. This is only getting started and is but one example of misallocation - there's millions of bubbles the Central Planners have blown to bail out the richest 0.01% Banking Aristocracy... all still waiting to pop. Many will take decades to do so. Summary: as oil companies in the USSA begin to fail this year, let's take Joe's advice and bail them out with 10s of billions or more. Sure, it means we'll have increase taxes on what little of the middle class is left, but hey, that's okay, you didn't like your retirement anyway. And then we can keep pumping chemicals into the groundwater and keep extracting excess oil so that our bankrupt automotive factories can assemble overseas-made massive excess-oil-burning SUVs. And as all these oil wells dry, why, we'll just keep paying people to pump chemicals into the groundwater - I mean, according to Joe we can't let any of them lose their jobs. I mean, that's why we're not "Economists" / behaviour psychologists. You know, like our Betters who run the Central Banks. You know, smart people who not only caused the """GREAT RECESSION""" but ALSO FIXED IT. Enjoy the Central Bank New Economy - it's going to be here for decades.
It helps if you actually did some research Michael. If you would have read the first paragraph of the attached Reuters link to which you reference, you would have noticed the 1.5 million jobs would be jobs lost by GM and GM’s suppliers. “Dec 9 (Reuters) - The federal bailout of General Motors Co, Chrysler and parts suppliers in 2009 saved 1.5 million U.S. jobs and preserved $105.3 billion in personal and social insurance tax collections, according to a study released on Monday.” I don’t think anyone needs you to tell them what I argue. Did I ever say anything that could even be remotely construed as to lead one to conclude slavery shouldn’t have been ended? No, you are making up another blatant straw man. Michael if your notions were so just and so true, you wouldn’t need to rewrite the dictionary and rely so heavily on illogical arguments. Unfortunately for you Michael reality, the truth, just isn’t consistent with your ideology. Facts are tough for you Michael. But the simple fact is the US government profited handsomely from the “bailouts”. It made 53.1 billion dollars and it saved hundreds of billions in lost revenue and unemployment and welfare payments. That is a very simple and verifiable fact. Yet another fact that is consistent with your ideological beliefs. Do your homework Michael, but you will not like what you find, because what you find just isn't even remotely consistent with your BELIEFS. The supreme irony here is that you are the guy who believes we should eliminate regulation and let the wealthiest among us do as they please. Your idealized world would bring back sweat shops, child labor, and pollution. Tiny Tim would be made real. You are the guy who likes to complain about the rich out of one side of your mouth while arguing their cause out of the other side of your mouth.
....... by stealing from one group of people (Millennial's) and giving to another (Baby's). Maybe you don't get it Joe, but stealing money is immoral. Oh, I'm sure bailing out the banks saved all sorts of criminals their savings and jobs.... AND?! Again, ending Slavery financially ruined many wealthy families and *GASP* they lost their personal wealth and *GASP* all those Slavers (and Slaves) lost darr Jerbs! So, Joe. Do tell. When the Oil Boom / BUBBLE / Central Banker-caused misallocation of resources turns into an Oil BUST that's going to cause many people their jobs and destroy the personal wealth of unknown numbers..... DO YOU propose the Government bail them out as well? Keep the oil wells pumping? Maybe lose another $10 Billion or so? I mean hey, the psychopaths that run the State is blowing through another 600 BILLION dollars (2015 military budget) to lose more wars overseas and to build more domestic spy networks to illegally spy on it's Tax Chattel / Citizens. Yes, I suppose 10, 20, 50 Billion to bailout some more losing bets the Banksters made is all perfectly reasonable..... to YOU. Meanwhile in the real world, the State continues to destroy the fabric of society, wage Unconstitutional Wars, spy domestically and shit out / graduate millions of functional illiterate turds into the hyper-Regulated toilet bowl of a 'FREE' market. Welcome to the USSA - where we have to bail out the Oil Barons because someone somewhere might lose their Job... and Oh my f*cking Buddha, we can't have THAT happen now can we??? Think of the Children and You use the Roads. Yeah, it's great that the average Amoorikan reads at the level of a 5th grader; because, like children, they're easily led around by the nose and told what to do and when to do it. Raise your hand to pee. Sit in your assigned seat. Do what your betters tell you to do. Go play Cannon Fodder in the State's phony wars. If you're lucky maybe you can kill some women and children for the Good of the Roads before you're PTSD takes you out. Enjoy the Greater Depression - this is only the beginning.
Yet another straw man Michael. I am not impressed. How about surprising me with an honest and logical argument once in a while? As has been endlessly pointed out to you, taxation isn’t “income redistribution” any more than going to the grocery store and purchasing groceries isn’t “income redistribution”. And taxation certainly isn’t theft or slavery either. Taxation is the price we pay for the goods and services we receive from our government. It’s just that simple Michael. Please make a logical and fact based evidence to support your allegations the Fed is responsible for the oil boom. The Fed didn’t invent the technology which is responsible for the boom. The Fed didn’t invent fracking, nor did it control the supply of oil as OPEC has done for decades. What is happening in the oil industry has nothing to do with the Fed or government bailouts. Further, no one is advocating any government sponsored oil industry bailouts. Again as has been endlessly written, the reason government bailouts were needed is because traditional sources of business financing dried up. Banks were not lending and Wall Street wasn’t financing industry. Owners of capital were sitting on their cash. That isn’t the case today. Banks are lending and Wall Street is working. So there is no need of a government sponsored bailout. If the oil industry should need financing, it can obtain it. That wasn’t the case a few years ago for any industry. Ford needed financing back in 2008 too. But it completed its financing before private financing locked up. GM and Chrysler were a little too slow and got stuck when the doors to financing closed in late 2008. You wouldn’t know the real world if it slapped you in the face Michael. Name me one credible person who is advocating for an oil industry bailout? You cannot, because they don’t exist. But that will not stop you from demagoguing fictitious issues. By the way, the economy is growing at an annualized rate of 5%. That by any stretch isn't a Greater Depression. You have gotten things backwards Michael.
Let's see if we have your rational here Joe, Bailing out GM = good because it 'saved jobs'. Bailing out criminal Bankers = good because it 'saved' jobs. Bailing out the Fracking Industry = bad because *insert post-hoc rational here, preferably something seen on MSM* According to Joe's 'Save The Jerb' logic, we'd all be better off if we: - make it illegal for Americans to buy cars made overseas (Toyota's, Honda's etc...) because with Americans forced to buy made in America, more Americans will have more work. - No more overseas made iPhones, TVs and other electronics.... because not producing electronics in America is putting Americans out of work. - And, of course we need to eliminate farm machinery and factory assembly lines and computers and pretty much any labor saving device because.... you see, according to your crock-of-shit logic all this 'progress' and 'free trade' is costing Americans their Jerbs. And is therefore bad for the economy.
U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Literacy: Research Date: 4.28.2013 Percent of U.S. adults who can’t read: 14 % Number of U.S. adults who can’t read: 32 Million Percent of U.S. adults who read below a 5th grade level: 21 % Percent of prison inmates who can’t read: 63 % Readability assessment of internet-based consumer health information Don't worry Joe, the Greater Depression is here to stay. No amount of bailing out criminal Bankster's on the backs of what's left of the middle class is going to turn functionally illiterate America into a conscientious, thoughtful, civil society. Nope. The only thing, and I mean ONLY WORDS, the Amoorikan electorate understand are the words 'FREE' and 'TERRORIST'. Which is why O-blah-ma didn't give us a lecture on the horrid state of Government schooling and how 1 in 5 Government school graduates are functionally illiterate (thanks in large part to Government Teacher's Unions who are paid a 13th month even though many teacher are, themselves, functionally illiterate). No, what he instead said was 12 years of Government schooling produces failure so let's give you two more for FREEEEEEEEEE...... and that thems Terrorists is on the runs *DAAAARRRRR*. The New Economy is probably good business for slum-Lords. Next stop, Too Big To Term Limit POTUS... yes, someone who can 'Put Government to Work' for 'The People' and 'The Good of the Roads or something'. Oh, that's going to cost a bit, how's a 90% income tax sound? You know, for the GOOD of General Motors and stuff.
Are you really that dense Michael? As I said before bailing out the GM and Chrysler was necessary because the economy was deep into a recession bordering on a great depression and traditional sources of financing had dried up. Banks were not lending and Wall Street was not working. Not bailing out the GM, Chrysler, and the banks would have exacerbated the economic crisis by throwing more people into unemployment. Bailing out the “fracking” industry isn’t necessary because we are not deep into a recession. And they don't need a bailout. Banks are working, Wall Street is working. Traditional sources of capital are available to the "fracking" industry. That was not the case for the banking industry, GM and Chrysler. And our economy is no longer bordering on a great depression. Our economy is growing at an annualized 5% rate as opposed to shrinking at an annualized rate of 10% and more with each passing month as was the case when the bank and auto industry bailouts were made six years ago. The unpleasant truth for you Michael is that the bailouts worked. Our government saved money and it made a pretty good return on the bailouts. I know you find macroeconomics, facts, and reason difficult Michael. But the proof is in the pudding. We bailed out the banks, GM and Chrysler. It worked. There has been a 15% improvement in economic growth. The government made a handsome return on its investment. And we are adding 200K-300K jobs to our economy as opposed to losing nearly a million jobs a month and more with each passing month as we were when the bailouts were enacted. It’s difficult to argue with success. But that doesn’t stop you from trying. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! It should be painfully obvious to you that your ideology is full of shit.
If by "worked" you mean preserved and expanded the wealth, power and influence of the richest 0.01% of Americans and European oligarchies, then yes, it worked - FOR THEM. And, if what you mean by 'We' is in reference to the three generations of Americans shafted with the bill, then again, yes, you are correct. But, if you think the bailout is working for the middle class, then you live in a bubble. The only thing these bailouts did was maintain the statuesque of the ruling elite who are now more powerful than at any time in our history. And that's not going to change. Not in our lifetimes. Welcome to Peonicka Land of the Fleeced Home of the Slave Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Don't worry Joe, Too Big To Term Limit POTUS is (probably) not going to happen in your lifetime. Nor will States vote to leave the Union. That's still many decades away. No, in your lifetime only expect to lose more civil liberties (hundreds of regulations keeping us safe from one another every year) and in a decade or two, for a real demagogue to come along and give the functionally illiterate the 'Change They Can Believe In' by stealing... errr... "taxing" anyone and everyone that has any 'unneeded' assets and income - times are tight Joe, everyone's got to do their part. It takes a LOT of money to keep bailing out of the richest incompetent 0.01% Aristocracy. You know, gotta keep them Jerbs. Don't want to lose any Jerbs. Oh, and expect the incompetent psychopaths who run this nation to add more phony wars to the list of ones on-going. Why, geeeee, there's a job a functionally illiterate Amoorikan can perform: cannon fodder.
Here's the thing, none of that has anything to do with the "bailouts". Wealth inequality existed before the bailouts and after the bailouts. As endlessly pointed out to you, the bailouts were about turning the economy around and saving the jobs of millions of Americans. So you think wealth inequality would have been better if millions of people lost their jobs? The government turned a tidy profit on the bailouts while saving the government hundreds of billions in lost revenues and expenses, and you think that is a bad thing? The irony here, is you have and continue to argue for the 1%ters. You have argued we need to do more of what caused the Great Recession (i.e. deregulation). You have argued if we just deregulate, give the "one percenters" what they want and suddenly they will cease pollution, share their wealth, and all will be well. All the reasons regulations were needed would suddenly and magically disappear. That's why "one percenters" like the Koch brothers spend huge sums of money annually to fund your ideology. There are two things that could fix the wealth inequality problem. Reduce the power and influence money has on our government, and make the tax code more progressive. But those things are an anathema with folks who subscribe to your ideology. The unfortunate fact for you Michael is the bailout worked. It kept people employed. It saved the government hundreds of billions in lost revenue and expenditures, and it made a tidy profit for the government.
