The Hard Problems Of Consciousnes - One of the best cases for Intelligent Design

Discussion in 'Religion' started by LFiess1942, Oct 13, 2014.

  1. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    No one forces you to take a decision, to make an assumption. Are you not happy concluding that you may not know the answer to such a question? Do you feel compelled to make assumptions to be able to come up with an answer that satisfies? If so, you are not answering the question rationally but merely satisfying your need for an answer.
    However, I am not avoiding taking a rational judgement: my judgement is that we are not designed, not here for any great purpose, but merely a product of natural evolution. I consider this more rational than the alternative (of being designed) as it requires fewer assumptions, yet still fits the evidence at hand. Thus the excess assumptions I deem to be unwarranted.
    Of course, I don't claim to know the truth of it, but my judgement is what I live by.
    No it's not. As said, I do take a rational judgement. And I say that you make an unwarranted assumption because I find that it the assumptions are unwarranted... excess to requirements to be able to come up with an answer.
    There is no reason to make the assumption when the alternative notion of an un-purposed, un-designed existence appears to fit the evidence at hand and does not require the assumption.
    It may simply be that you don't like the answer without those assumptions. But truth is not governed by what is palatable or comfortable, although such considerations may guide what you deem to be rational, and if so then in that we differ.
    Eh?
    I have used an analogy - point A being where we are at present, not necessarily being the ultimate destination. It is to point out the fallacy of making assumptions about the path we took.
    Our current position is wherever we are. It is a moment in time. Both you and I only have what we can see around us to assess the most rational path for our arriving where we are. But whereas you make assumptions, for whatever reason, and conclude that we were meant to be there, I don't; I conclude that it is more rational to come up with an explanation that does not require such assumptions for which there is no apparent evidence.
    We can question, of course, but sometimes the question begs the answer and might actually be an invalid question. "Why?" presupposes a purpose when there may be none. Just because we can ask it does not mean it has an answer, or is even valid.

    But you presuppose purpose, and I see no evidence for doing so. And since an alternative explanation fits the apparent evidence without the need for such assumptions, I find those assumptions to be unwarranted.
     
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  3. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Man is not required to eat fish. We have merely evolved to be able to. The existence of vegetarians is ample demonstration that there is no requirement.
     
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    If indeed it can be shown to be designed, the logical conclusion would indeed be that a designer exists. Whether that designer is God, or merely a superior intelligence... who knows.

    But before all that, you can show that it is designed, of course? I mean you can, can't you?
    Preferably with something more than the argument of fine-tuning (I have my quote from Douglas Adams all ready to go if you start down that path again).
     
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    In a word:
    Iceage

    .....................
     
  8. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    I've observed this debate with interest. It seems to me you, Bigfoot, are stuck in a teleological mindset. Who says "the question" is one of why Man is rational and what is his purpose for existence? Those are simply not questions that science tries to answer. They are not scientific questions. They are religious or metaphysical questions.

    We have only "not reached our destination" if one accepts that these metaphysical questions are the one that we should seek answers to. But (a) many people would not be interested in those questions and (b) those that are should not seek the answers through science.

    If you want to pursue answers to such questions via theology or philosophy, that is absolutely fine (and I personally have a lot of time for such questions myself. I think they are natural questions we all ask ourselves.).

    What is inexcusable however, is what ID tries to do, which is to insinuate teleology and supernatural intervention into science, as the title of this thread does.
     
  9. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    Apparently you fail to understand that all the opinions that we hold as "true" for us, have been arrived at through subjective interpretations, and therefore, they have a bias which is basically "assumptious" Assumption cannot be avoided when trying to arrive at a rational judgment. We test the validity of our assumptions, ideas, or believes, and using Socratic methodology, we deconstruct an argument, and reconstruct it using the available tools, until we arrive at a consensus. It involves deconstructing an argument by exposing it to logic, and showing where it does not make sense, probing it, until all contradictions are exposed, and then reconstructing it in the way it make most sense. It’s a method that applies the Logical Law of non-contradiction.

    In regard to your so-called "excess assumptions" one may apply the Ockham’s Razor. Problem is, you rigidly hold on to just one set of assumption, and claim that any additional assumption that questions you previously held believes and assumptions are "excess"
     
  10. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    Well, we know that we as Intelligent human beings, we acknowledge intelligence behind a creation, by the fact that that Intelligence leaves behind a signature that proclaims ownership of that creation. So, when we identify a peculiar signature in creation, I would propose that it infers a claim to this creation. And when we observe the universe, the earth and all creation, we observe a signature of the creator! So, there is a design, and signature. What else do you need?
     
  11. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    (1) Hmm, I wonder who is "stuck" I could be the one stuck but on the other hand, I could have freed myself and am trying to pull you out!

    (2) I wager that science has now been forced to look into it. They are no more religious questions as science and metaphysics have found themselves strange bed fellows, thanks to John Bell.

    (3) We are not just seeking to answer metaphysical questions. I am proposing like Emmanuel Kant, that we seek for a Copernicus Revolution to the problem of science, Knowledge, Consciousness, existence, and Religion. Of course this could be too much for the traditionalists and the conservatives on either side.
    (4) Since its the same mind, the same logic, and the same approach, why spare them a marriage so-to-speak? In the end, they will meet. So, why not now?

    (5) As I posited, this argument proposes the possibility the possibility of a marriage in the future for Science and Spirituality. And logically, tries to find the most possible way they might meet and agree.(1)
     
  12. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    No real issue here, other than with regard the notion of self-caused or non-caused things, that would sit outside the notion of creation.
    Basically, IF there is something that is created then there is a creator (even if self-caused, should such be possible). This is a truism.
    And here I disagree: I observe no such signature that rationally and unambiguously leads to the conclusion of God.

    (Further you are presuming the notion of creator by your usage of the term creation, but that is of minor significance to the main point.)
    I see no evidence of design, nor of a signature, that leads me to conclude "God". So that is what I would need.
    Please show me what leads you to conclude that there is.
     
  13. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    Signature of the Trinity in the Cosmos


    If we keenly sturdy the material world, and all that exists, we will recognize that there exists a trinity, which is common and very peculiar in all creation! For creation, is the Trinity Manifest as Body, or the Unconscious Energized Law. We would observe triune nature inherent in all things, and in everything. For example, when we observe the universe, we will recognize, three differentiated types of heavenly systems that exists, differentiated, but united in one, making the Universe. They are centers within centers. We have the Solar Systems, Galactic Systems, and the Universe. This is, the physical body, of the Spirit of God, or the Cosmic Trinity.

    In the solar Systems we also recognize another evidence of the Trinity. We have the planets, like our earth, we also have their Satellites we call moons, and lastly the stars , around which they orbit. We also note that the bodies, in the solar System, also behave just like the bodies that make the Cosmos. They are Centers, within Centers! They rotate around an axis, and around each other. Moons orbits the planets, and planets orbit star. Stars, orbit around a Center, as part of the Galactic system. Our Star, is the Sun.

    Triune Dimension

    When we study the cosmos, or the Manifest phenomena of reality, we perceive it using a Triune Dimensions. That is, we perceive it through three differentiated dimensions. These are the dimension of Space, the dimension of Time, and the dimension of material Matter. These dimensions by themselves, are trinity. They do not exists as separate, but rather they are somehow intertwined but differentiated . That’s why, Astrophysicists study the Cosmos, using what they refer to as the "Space-time-matter " continuum. These dimensions also express a Trinity in themselves. For example, the dimension of Time is perceived as, either Past, Present, or that which is Future. The dimension of Space perceived either in Height breadth and Length In dimension Matter, we perceive it either being Liquid, Solid, or Gaseous. In its quantum realm, it manifests itself as a supper-position wave structure, where Causation Creation and manifestation are indistinguishable. This has been confirmed by the non-locality of reality at quantum realm. All these three are built in the fabric of the cosmos and reality

    Signature of the Trinity in Matter

    Another observable signature of the Trinity is to be found in the very basic particle of matter out of which, everything in the universe has been fashion. All matter in the universe, is made up of atoms. In itself, the atom, has, built in itself, the very nature of he that has fashioned it. It’s a Trinity. Its has three main sub-atomic particles. These are the Protons, the Electrons, and the Neutrons. These sub-atomic particles manifest a Triune differentiated energy state, expressing the nature of the Trinity who has fashioned them. The proton, is positively charged, and together with the neutron, it forms the nuclear . The neutron, has no charge, while the electron, has a negative charge Every atom, is made up of a group of protons and neutrons, around which orbits a cloud of electrons. Atoms naturally combine, to form the 92 known naturally existing distinct elements, out of which all creation is fashioned.

    Triune Cosmic forces.

    The basic particles of matter, the atoms, are held together by three basic energy forces naturally existing in the universe, woven in the fabric of Space Time and Matter as Law differentiated. These forces are in themselves, a trinity! They are differentiated according to their attractiveness on the basic particles of matter. We have the Strong Nuclear Force, or Nuclear Law, the Electromagnetic force, or Electromagnetic Law, and lastly the Weak Nuclear force, or Weak Nuclear Law.

    Triune Subatomic Particles.

    In Quantum Mechanics the physics that deal with the nature of matter in its quantum state, we find that there are other even more infinitely smaller subatomic particles of matter, that make up the elementary sub-atomic particles, that is, the neutrons, and protons. The peculiarity of these subatomic particles is that they too, curiously enough, express a Trinity. For example, protons, and neutrons, which are part of the three subatomic particles that make up the atoms, are themselves, made up of "quarks" These quarks combine as a Trinity to form these sub-atomic particle. Quarks themselves however, come in six differentiated "flavors" Theses are "up" "down" "Strange" "Charmed" "Bottom" "Top" These names, do not exactly mean anything. Rather, they are names given to differentiate these quarks. Each of these flavors, are also a Trinity! They come in three differentiated "colors" There is the "red" "Green" and "Blue" Again, the reference to color, is only for differentiation. Quarks, in reality, have no color.

    Signature of the Trinity In Life

    Intelligently Self-Controlling Conscious Life

    When the Trinity expresses Himself as a diversity of Intelligently Self-Controlling conscious life, this nature of the Trinity is manifested in people, humanity, or in general, mankind. We have a diversity of people who have different color, language, culture etc. Man, is a creature that is aware of himself, and his environment. He is a conscious being. He is reasoning, creature, expressing the Intelligent Self-Controlling Spirit

    Creatively Subjective Subconscious Life

    When Trinity expresses Himself as the Creatively Subjective life, this type of life is manifested in creatures other than Man. All creatures except Man, are creatively subjective to the law written in them by God. From a multiplicity of potentiality of God, he creates diversity of creation, They are also creatively subjective to Man, because Man has the Spirit of who controlled creation. He is the Image of God. But in themselves, they are not conscious of themselves. They have no Self-consciousness . They have no self-will, or volition. They are creatively Subjective and there can be domesticated by Man!

    Spontaneous Manifesting Unconscious Life

    Lastly when the Trinity expresses Himself as unconscious life, He manifests this nature in plants, or vegetation. All vegetation express an unconscious response to the law of life that is written in the seed. When it’s planted in the soil, the seed unconsciously draws life force from the soil, according to the law of life, written in it. They respond mechanically, and unconsciously, to the law of life. This ’s a Spontaneously Manifesting unconscious life.

    Signature Of The Trinity In The Cell

    Another evidence of Intelligent Design, who is the Divine Trinity is what American biochemist and researcher Dr Stephen Meyer calls “signature in the Cell’ in his book by the same title. Dr. Meyer calls our attention to the basic building block of life as it were. The four Nitrogenous bases of the gene, which determine the inherited characteristics of all living things. What scientists have found is that a gene is made of predetermined sequence of bases or nucleotides, which determine the type of protein that will be forms. These Nucleotides are adenine (A), thymine(T), guanine (G), and cytosine (C) These combine as a Trinity in groups of three reefed to as codons, that specify which of the 20 amino acids goes into the protein. Any on of the four bases can form the three possible codon position, . These groupings are the genetic codes, that dictate the sequence of amino acids that form the protein. There are rules regarding how these bases can pair. s.” See Stephen Meyer’s “Signature in the Cell”)

    So...........There!
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2014
  14. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, wow! Where to even start dissecting this.
    It's nothing but confirmation bias, interpreting as you want to interpret rather than anything I consider rational.
     
  15. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    I though you wanted evidence. When its given to you, its "Confirmation bias" One more thing you are made in the Image of God. You are a Trinity. Here


    The Human Brain ,

    Conscious Mind, the Individualized Universal Law of Trinity .


    A study of the physiology of the human brain, reveals that the human brain has evolved a physiology which influences differentiated behavioral tendencies in human beings, that replicate the Triune nature of its creator, who is God the Trinity. In its Spiritual state, the Human Mind expresses itself as the a Signature of the Law, who has manifested the reality we perceives, and that, which is unseen. That means that in Man, the whole universe has been individuated in Him, as the signature Law of Trinity in Him. To that extent, Man, as an individual, individuates the Universe. He is the Seed of the Universe, and the Seed of God, its creator! He is Law of Consciousness who is Trinity. This Law of Trinity in Man, makes Man, the Child of God, and therefore a Child of Universe. He is supposed to use this Law, to create the Universe, as God would wish it to be, which is a Universe in Unity.

    In its physical form, the human brain is divided into three main hemispheres each with a distinct, and differentiated function, influencing differentiated behavioral tendencies, but expressing the same mind, which is the individuated law of the Trinity in Man. There is the frontal robe, or the Cerebral Cortex, then there is the inner brain, or the Limbic System, and lastly, we have the Brain Stem, or R/Complex or the reptilian brain. Each of these areas of the brain, influence different behavioral tendencies in human beings expressing the state of the Mind, which is the activation, of the differentiated Universal Law of Trinity in Man, expressing itself as the “Human Mind” . The Human Brain, therefore is the “Housing” or the “Motherboard” or the “Casing”, in which, and through the Human Mind, as Law, operates as the “Software” of the progressively Self-programming complex entity we refer to as “The Human Being”. And just as the Software if not the Hardware, the Brain, too, is not the mind. It just facilitates the working of the mind. Man, therefore uses his Mind, which is the Law of Trinity differentiated, to program himself towards Self-knowledge as an Intelligently Self-controlling Human Being experiencing Spirituality, and also an Intelligently Self-controlling Spiritual being experiencing humanity. This is what we call the “ True Image of God and Man” who is the Christ.

    The Neo-Cortex,

    The Conscious Brain, Intelligent Mind, Self-Controlling Law

    Man, is Law individuated! The human mind, is the interactive activation of the Law of the Trinity in Man. Therefore all thought is Conscious Law. It’s the interactive activity of the Individuated Universal Conscious Law, who is Man and God, speaking together, in the Christ, as the Christ. As thought is conscious Law. All Speech, is verbal Law of Consciousness. It’s the conversion of conscious law, to living law. All speech, is law, which is alive. Its verbal Law. Its expression of consciousness. Its life, manifest. That’s why Jesus says; “It’s the Spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer. The Words I have spoken to you, are spirit, and they are life”. John 6:59-59 Therefore the mind of Man, is the animated Law, expressing itself as a Trinity. Whatever we think, say or do, either builds, or destroys. The Neo-cortex is the seat of reason, or Logos. It’s the thinking or the conscious brain. Its the antennae, through which the Universal Conscious Spirit, or the Intelligent Law, expresses his individuated consciousness in human beings. The Neo-cortex, is the largest part of the brain, and what sets human beings apart from the rest of creation. It deals with processing complex auditory information, speech production and articulation, complex processing of virtual information, comprehension of spoken language, planning, judgment, and coordination of complex movements, etc. The cerebral cortex is always energized with thought patterns. Therefore we are always thinking. The activity of thought, is activated unconsciously. No one decides whether to think or not. Thinking is to the cerebral cortex, what pumping is to the heart. Since thinking is spontaneous, it’s a conscious law activated spontaneously.

    Being the part of our brain which deal with interpretation of sentient experiences, it expresses the conscious part of our mind. Its the conscious mind , that determines what kind of thoughts are energized by what kind of feelings, and therefore, what kind of impulses, habits, tendencies, character, instincts that will develop in us. It’s the essence of whatever we become, and what happens to us. The cerebral cortex is the Command Center of the Ship, which is us. Being the point at which all signals from all impulses, stimuli or sensations are sent, it determines the direction of our all action, behavior, and character. It’s the Center of Consciousness. It’s the Conscious part of our Brain, expressing the conscious part of our mind, which is our differentiated use of the Universal Conscious Mind, or the Universal Intelligent Conscious Law, individuated in us. Our thoughts, are the individuated Conscious Law. The Intelligently Self-Controlling Spirit. The Father in Us.

    The Limbic System,

    Subconscious Brain, Creative Mind, Subjective Law


    The limbic system first emerged in mammals, about 200-300 million years ago. Since its found highly developed in mammals, it is also referred to as the “mammalian brain” It deals with all human emotions, and feeling and reacts to agreeable and disagreeable experiences. It’s the feeling part of the brain. The limbic system reacts subjectively, according to our thoughts. It translates our Conscious thoughts, into a creative Law, expressed by out feelings, thus making them energized and impressive to our unconscious brain, which express themselves in us, as individuated or completed archetypes. The limbic system is the Subconscious Brain, which acts as the individuated subconscious law, which by its divine nature acts subjectively, and which t replicates the Universal subjective Creative Law of God. This individuated creative law of God, is subjective to the Intelligently Self-Controlling Spirit, individuated in us as our thoughts. When we think happy thoughts, we generated emotions of happiness. We are at ease assured, relieved, and relaxed. When we are afraid, the limbic system triggers a cascade of emotions which activate impulsive instincts for self-preservation as species It is the writer and the activator of impulsiveness in us. That is, it impresses the unconscious brain with chemical energy created by emotions, until certain definite Archetypal impulses, predisposition, instinct, or habit develop, which then are activated, whenever particular emotions are generated. Thus, the limbic system is the subconscious translator of our conscious Laws (thoughts) into unconscious Law, (which are our impulses, tendencies, instincts, habits, and all unconscious operations or activities). The limbic system, being the subconscious part of our brain, expresses the subconscious part of our mind, which is our differentiated use of the Universal Subjective Law, individuated in us. It acts as our individuated Universal Subjective Creative Law . Its God the Spirit in us, as Yahweh, the I am. The being in us.



    The Reptilian Brain.

    The Unconscious Brain, the Spontaneous Mind, the Manifesting Law

    As it has been stated, we human beings since we are products of evolution, have inherited psycho-physiological characteristics of our parents throughout evolution process. The reptilian brain, is physiological organ inherited from our evolutional reptilian parents. It is the most primitive part of the human brain, which we have inherited from our primordial ancestors, the reptiles We share this kind of brain with reptiles. All mammals, including man, have this part of the brain. It is the oldest of the three which has evolved over 500 million years ago. It has two hemispheres. The brain stem, and the cerebellum. The reptilian brain deals with all unconscious operations of the body, operations that we are not even conscious of. It is the Unconscious part of our brain expressing the unconscious part of our Mind.

    Being unconscious, it operates as unconscious Law. It expresses the differentiated use of the Universal unconscious Mind, and Universal Manifesting Law individuated in us, and written by us using our conscious law (thoughts) and translated by our subconscious law (emotions) into spontaneous behavioral tendencies which appear as unconscious Tendencies. The reptilian brain is emotionless, and therefore unfeeling, it operates involuntarily according to what has been written by the conscious law. Being a spontaneous law, its responsible for all unconscious operations of the species. It’s operates as the “house keeper” doing the most basic duties for the organism. It controls the lungs, and therefore of how we breath, it also controls blood pressure, heart beat, sugar level, and digestion of food. It is the part of the brain that deals with impulses, instincts, and habits, hobbies, addictions, character, tendencies . It also triggers the fight or fright impulses, and thus, it influences a species survival instincts. All human preoccupation relating to security is influenced by this part of our brain.
     
  16. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    You haven't given me much evidence at all, rather it is mostly biased interpretation of the evidence.
    Further the evidence presented in no way rationally leads me to conclude "God". At best we can conclude, even if we take the factual aspects of what is presented as being free of selection bias (which I consider dubious) that the universe operates with things that can be categorised into three parts. But does that categorisation relate to a truth or merely a simplicity in how we look at things.
    For example, MacLean's triune brain model has been shown to be flawed, in that it assumes things in the reptile brain that were already part of pre-reptile evolution, such as basal ganglia. It was also based only on information available at the time (some 50 years ago), such as human linear evolution which has since been abandoned in favour of the ramified model of evolution.
    It is certainly a model that has some utility to it, but to rationally consider it as evidence of a creator's signature? No.
    Sometimes things work in threes simply because they work in threes.
    Who knows, maybe the universe is biased toward triunes in some fashion, but that would merely be an insight into how the universe operates, not evidence of a "God".

    Also, if you're going to quote other people, or copy their texts, please acknowledge it... if you are the source of your posts (#270 and #272) then okay, but they read rather like pre-written texts.
     
  17. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Apologies, missed your response here...
    Sure, but if you're going to merely state your opinions, please don't dress them as fact, or claim them to be that which they are not. Opinions are generally held as subjective.
    If it is your opinion that there is a designer, that the earth was designed just to have us on it, that is your opinion. But as soon as you say claim that there IS a designer, that the earth WAS designed for us... this oversteps opinion into the territory of objective claim.
    Your method will only take you so far. There are an infinite non-contradictory explanations for things we don't know. The key is in arriving at what one considers a rational explanation from among that infinite number.
    It's certainly not a rigid holding on of a set of assumptions, it is holding in preference those assumptions that are most supportable (i.e. not yet proven as objective fact) and only holding those that are necessary for the purposes at hand. Any assumptions that are surplus to requirement are unwarranted. Any that are less supported than an alternative are also unwarranted.

    But it also comes down to accepting that there are things we will never know, or simply do not know at the moment, and thus not needing to make assumptions that are unsupported just so that we can provide an answer.
    It is this reluctance to say and be content with "I don't know" that, in my view, leads people to such unsupported assumptions as there being evidence for Intelligent Design.
    Once you make such an assumption you then convince yourself, through selection and interpretation bias, that it is supported.
    And I do not find that at all rational.
     
  18. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Given that it is intellectually possible to conceive of both a teleological view of the universe and non-teleological one, then clearly if you consider only the teleological option to be valid, then you are taking a narrower view than someone who is prepared to consider both possibilities.

    The reason your "marriage between science and spirituality" is impossible is because consideration of ideas that cannot be tested by reproducible observation is ruled out by the scientific method. I have pointed this out already, earlier in the thread. I do not think you ever responded to the point. It seems to me a total showstopper for your woolly idea.
     
  19. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    There have been several, at least but evidently showstoppers don't stop his show.
     
  20. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    “please don't dress them as fact, or claim them to be that which they are not.”

    Mm. Before facts were facts, they were merely opinions. Are they not still looking for Higgins boson? Until they find it, it will always be Peter Higgs’ opinions. Since am confident in my opinions, pardon me, if I dress them as fact. am convinced.

    “But as soon as you say claim that there IS a designer, that the earth WAS designed for us... this oversteps opinion into the territory of objective claim.”

    Well I have a problem. The problem is, as I stated elsewhere, all our opinions are subjective. But in order to understand reality, you need to be objective. So, because of the pervasiveness of subjectivity, however much we try to be objective, our subjectivity will always interfere.



    only holding those that are necessary for the purposes at hand”

    This becomes “personal necessity”, and therefore subjective.

    “But it also comes down to accepting that there are things we will never know, or simply do not know at the moment, and thus not needing to make assumptions that are unsupported just so that we can provide an answer”.

    This is self-defeatist since it ends you desire to know.
     
  21. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    Given that it is intellectually possible to conceive of both a teleological view of the universe and non-teleological one, then clearly if you consider only the teleological option to be valid, then you are taking a narrower view than someone who is prepared to consider both possibilities.


    The problem with clear logical explanation either teleological or non-teleological is because we are limited by our approach. We are allegorically, speaking like an “antibody in a human cell, trying to explain Man, to another antibody”


    In my opinion, reality is in Supper-positioned state. Its bother teleological and none-teleological. It appears both purposeful and none purposeful. Its appears designed and none designed. It appears subjective, and also objective. Its the reason anyone taking either sides, cannot see the logic in the other.

    Why would it be made in such a non-logical way? I believe its because, we are logical. So, Illogicality manifests to logically reasoning beings. Why? I believe its because we are in an altered state of consciousness.

    The reason your "marriage between science and spirituality" is impossible is because consideration of ideas that cannot be tested by reproducible observation is ruled out by the scientific method. I have pointed this out already, earlier in the thread. I do not think you ever responded to the point. It seems to me a total showstopper for your woolly idea.



    Since “reproducible observation” has been proved impossible by Bell’s theorem and Allan Aspect experiment, its useless to put our hope in the “Science of Observation”
     
  22. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    You haven't given me much evidence at all, rather it is mostly biased interpretation of the evidence.


    Yeah you are right. I do not need to give any additional evidence besides the one that is staring at me in the face. We have through scientific methodology, deconstructed reality and amassed a huge body of knowledge. All we need is to put it together in a logical way. That is what I am endeavoring to do.


    Further the evidence presented in no way rationally leads me to conclude "God". At best we can conclude, even if we take the factual aspects of what is presented as being free of selection bias (which I consider dubious) that the universe operates with things that can be categorised into three parts. But does that categorisation relate to a truth or merely a simplicity in how we look at things.

    Well I have not exactly said three parts, but I just put it as if there are three parts to provoke you interest. The truth is that there is no defining line or boundaries. There is differentiation, but no separation. So, they appear three, but in reality they are One.


    It is certainly a model that has some utility to it, but to rationally consider it as evidence of a creator's signature? No.


    You can’t fail to agree however that its intriguing. What a coincidence?


    Sometimes things work in threes simply because they work in threes.
    Who knows, maybe the universe is biased toward triunes in some fashion, but that would merely be an insight into how the universe operates, not evidence of a "God".


    I think you are doing unjust to you intellectual curiosity.

    Also, if you're going to quote other people, or copy their texts, please acknowledge it... if you are the source of your posts (#270 and #272) then okay, but they read rather like pre-written texts.

    Yeah it’s a prewritten text, and its mine. It’s a “Work In Progress”
     
  23. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    If you dress them as fact you do need to support them as facts.
    Of course, so while you admit to being subjective you make claims of the objective, claims which have no objective support. Further you leap across the subjective/objective boundary with nothing but "belief" in your subjective opinions yet dress it up as objective support.
    Admit to yourself the boundaries of the applicability of your opinions, and maybe you'll admit that the objective reality is a case of "we don't know".
    Everything we do is subjective, so we use tools that try to limit the level of subjectivity.
    No it doesn't, otherwise you'd never read a book, watch a film, where you "don't know" the ending until it is discovered.
    For those things we might determine are "unknowable" - we can still work to get as close and as rational as possible.
    It is merely laziness and personal dissatisfaction with "I don't know", in my view, that results in many people's belief - their desire for an answer, and their desire for an answer they find acceptable rather than one that follows only as far as the evidence goes.
     

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