Do plates slide , north pole has changed position

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by river, Nov 20, 2014.

  1. river

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    17,307
    There is a theory that the plates , geological plates , slide over the mantel suddenly

    So that land masses change position , globably

    Its interesting that Mammoths were frozen with their hair and meat ( muscle ) perfectly perserved
     
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  3. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    I do not think there is any real theory that states that.

    Yes but only after millions of years.

    There are a few examples of fairly well preserved mammoths. I am not sure why you find it so interesting that an amimal that died in that artic would be frozen. I would be really surprised if they didn't become frozen.
     
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  5. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    And they only died out ~5,000 yrs ago. I read that frozen specimens have been found that date up to 50,000 yrs in age. During this period of time, taking a typical rate of continental drift of 2cm/yr, the continents will only have had time to drift about 1km or so. So at the time of these frozen mammoths, they would all have been within about a kilometre - maybe two or three at most - of their positions today.

    So the discovery of frozen mammoths tells us nothing whatever about continental drift.

    But no doubt comrade River will have read some fuckwitted book that says differently: don't forget, we are all establishment high-priests……...stuck, er, in an ivory tower of,er, conventional thinking……they laughed at Galileo……….[repeat and fade]……….
     
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Ötzi did not die on the ice.
    Shortly after death, the snow and ice entombed his corpse for our education and entertainment.

    Sudden climate change(cold snaps) like that which entombed Ötzi seems to have been much more common than previously thought.
    Extrapolating back to entombed mammoth should be no great leap of imagination, nor require any sudden radical plate tectonics.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
  8. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    A "sudden climate" change is not needed either. Dying on the artic permafrost is all that is needed to be perserved.
     
  9. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    It may not have been "permafrost" when some of the preserved died.
    Many years ago when I was a student of archaeology, some soviet scientists had examined the stomach contents of a recovered frozen mammoth. They noted that the stomach contents included plants that now grew much farther south---I believe that they wrote of plants common to Georgia(not the US Georgia).
    "Permafrost" does not seem to have been nearly as permanent as many would presuppose.

    ................
    More at the "sudden change": In the high andes warm weather ferns and other plants were found under a retreating glacier. The scientists investigating the scene noted that the freeze over seemed to have happened at about the same time that Ötzi was preserved, about 5200-5300 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
  10. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    I do not see any sudden change ~5000 years ago. I think you have been listening to the YEC.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  11. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    What is a YEC?

    Your chart shows a combination of proxies.
    Do you know the origins for each and/or any of the proxies?
    Were the 2 mentioned phenomena included as part of that blending of proxies?

    Bear in mind that the high latitudes and high altitudes are less stable and more prone to showing more rapid change than the lower latitudes or altitudes.

    So when we see rapid change in the alps, or andes, we wouldn't necessarily expect to see the same degree or speed of change at lower altitudes.
    Kind of like the canary in the coal mine.
    Just because your chart doesn't show it does not mean that it didn't happen.
    ...............
    Prof Thompson of Ohio State whose specialty is ice core analysis had visited the Quelccaya ice cap in Peruvian Andes many times. He took samples and monitored the speed of the glacier and other geological processes going on there. It was on one of these trips that he found plants, perfectly preserved, non-woody plants, still wet where the ice had melted from them that day. They were undamaged and perfectly preserved, not black, wilted or shrivelled. The only way that could happen is if they had been covered in snow and found by Thompson within a short time of the snow melting before the frost damage started to show. He was in the right place at the right time, but one thing confused him. They were sitting at the bottom of a wall of sheer ice, the leading end of a receding glacier, a glacier that the ice cores told him had been there for thousands of years.

    Carbon dating of the plants revealed them to be 5,200 years old. What’s more, they were wetland plants, plants that you would not expect to find in the Andes, but there they were. He has since collected more plants from other glaciers and valleys in the Andes, they too are 5,200 years old.

    In 1991 hikers found what they thought was a dead body, and indeed it was. But this victim of foul play lived a long time ago, 5,200 years ago to be precise. Otzi-the iceman was found in South Tyrol, Italy.

    To be so well preserved and untouched by animals he must have been covered with snow almost immediately after his death. Food he was carrying indicated that he had been lower down the valley in the previous 12 hours. His wounds prove there was someone else in the area that carried out the attack that cost him his life. He had eaten a full meal of deer and ibex shortly before his death. We know Otzi hadn’t been exposed since his death as there was no decay on the body.

    .............
    Abrupt change in sedimentation rate of Lake Van in Turkey indicative of rapid climatic fluctuation at (varve) dates of 5200 BP (3150 BC) (Palaeo, 122 (1996) p 107)
    .............
    Thompson again:

    “This means that sometime around 5,200 years ago, there was a rapid cooling event in this region and the ice expanded shielding the plants from damage and decay,” Thompson said.

    Other records from around the world seem to support the idea of a cooling event at this time. Divers in Lake Tahoe, Nevada, found nearly two dozen ancient tree trunks preserved at the lake’s bottom. Wood samples from the trunks date back 5,200 years and geologic records show the current lake levels have remained steady since that point in time.

    Thompson also pointed to the timing of past climate changes in South America and the rise and fall of early cultures in the region.
    .................
    From Columbia university:
    New evidence from deep-sea cores shows that the earth's climate cools significantly and abruptly in a naturally occurring 1,000- to 3,000-year cycle, a scientist at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory reported today.

    The evidence shows that abrupt coolings occurred not only during the ice ages, but also during the current warmer period - long after most ice sheets disappeared and conditions on earth more closely resembled today's. Regularly spaced layers of rocky fragments in ocean sediments revealed the rapid cooling cycle, the most recent yet discovered. The findings were reported at the American Geophysical Union's fall meeting in San Francisco by Gerard Bond, a paleoclimatologist at Lamont-Doherty, Columbia's earth sciences research institute in Palisades, N.Y.

    The discovery of warming and cooling cycles in the modern era adds a new factor in predicting future global climate change. And it throws new light on historical events, such as the Little Ice Age, a cold spell that gripped the world several hundred years ago. It may even have some bearing on the Neolithic hunter called the Ice Man, whose 5,200-year-old frozen remains were discovered recently in the Alps.

    "If this is indeed a regular climate rhythm, it is still going on today," Dr. Bond said. "By understanding what causes these sudden climate change cycles, we could more reliably predict how the earth's climate system could shift in the near future. Because we now think that climate flips can occur on an earth relatively free of ice, the odds of a future climate jolt could be higher than we thought.

    "The evidence is growing that climate in the post-ice age world is not as stable and is more variable than once thought," Dr. Bond said at an AGU session highlighting abrupt climate change during the Holocene era - the past 10,500 years after the last ice age ended and human civilization began to flourish. "The abrupt coolings in the Holocene are not as great as those that occurred during the ice ages, but still might be significant enough to cause severe winters, agricultural disruptions, and other adverse impacts on people."
    ......................
    There is much much more from other scientists
    One has only to look
     
  12. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    11,888
    Young Earth Christian.
     
  13. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    So, what is it that you think the YEC's yack about?

    .......edit:
    If memory serves, it is something about a 6,000 year old earth?
    Which would put Ötzi back in the time of Noah ?
     
  14. river

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    17,307
    Interesting

    And the thing that has puzzled me for years , is how do mammoths freeze so completely , hair, bones and even blood ...?

    This is Not normal , it suggests a very extreme sudden change in climate , of which they could not escape , obviously

    Normal would be a gradual change , yet the evidence is obviously to the contrary to this thinking

    It seems that this idea that the crust of the Earth can slide over mantel of the Earths core , is plausible
     
  15. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    One variable this often left out of the analysis is the impact of water on plate tectonics. Water under pressure and temperature; at and above its critical point, becomes a very aggressive solvent for rocks and minerals, especially silicates. As the temperature and pressure increases, water becomes more and more aggressive.

    The net result is confined water (without pressure release) within the crust, can eat its way downward into the mantle because downward allows entropy to increase via more dissolving of fixed materials; direction of more and more aggressive water. An ocean of water was found below the crust in SE Asia. If this water came to the surface, there would be a world wide flood of epic proportions. It is contained in an aggressive downward state. It would need a pressure drop to change directions.

    Once water reaches deeper in the mantle, the extreme pressure and temperature, can changes the phase of water from hydrothermal into the onset of superionic water. This phase of water is nasty stuff. If one was to suddenly reduce the pressure, due to a slight breech due to a sliding plate, superionic water will explode like TNT, as it changes back to hydrothermal water. This can blow big holes into the mantle/crust interface.

    In the middle of the Atlantic ocean, there is a huge scar where the crust have been completely removed exposing the mantle. This may have been an event due to a superionic water to hydrothermal breach of the crust, with the high pressure water loosing pressure containment, flowing back to the surface for major erosion.The water is not only a grease for plate sliding but also an explosive to unstick a seam.

    At the conditions of the earth's core, water becomes a metal. I would guess the core is an iron-water metallic amalgam, due to water diffusion, with the hydrogen protons and oxygen of the metallic water conducting electrons from the iron; oxidization.
     
  16. Landau Roof Registered Senior Member

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    598
    It's called accidentally falling into a hole.
     
  17. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    In winter, in at least some of the mammoth's range, the temperature never rose above freezing. So if an animal died during winter, without its own metabolism to regulate body temperature, it would drop to match the ambient temperature. So all of its tissue would freeze. A dead animal would eventually sink into the permanent snow cover ("permafrost") so its tissue would be preserved eternally until someone dug it up, or until climate change that would melt the permafrost.

    It's the endothermic ("warm-blooded") metabolism that maintains a constant body temperature. Once the endothermic organism (mammals and birds) dies, its metabolism ceases and its body temperature soon synchronizes with the external temperature.
     
  18. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    That depends upon how you define real. Hugh Auchincloss Brown, an electrical engineer, proposed a theory in which rapid and catastrophic pole shifts occurred as a consequence of crustal imbalance caused by the build up of ice in the polar regions. Charles Hapgood, a history professor and one time member of the OSS, expanded on this concept, publishing a number of related works. Rand Flem-Ath and his wife published evidence purporting to support the hypothesis. The idea was popularised in a 1970s SF disaster novel, the HAB theory. The idea has not been well received in specialist circles. It suffers from the same weaknesses as Velikovsky's work: patchy scholarship, colloquially known as cherry picking.

    References provided upon request, but you'd be quicker checking wikipedia. (Don't forget to make a donation.)
     
  19. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    9,232
    The pivotal importance of water in lubricating plate movement is tacitly or explicitly acknowledged in practically all relevant research. For example Bercovici, D [1]. Do you have counter examples?

    Aggressive? Do you mean it is capable of containing more silicates in solution? That would certainly be true. Moreover there is evidence that the complexity of the dissolved species increases, eventually reaching the point where aqueous solutions are miscible with silicate fluids. [2]

    Nonsense. Bouyancy, compaction forces, expansion due to increased temperature and likely other factors will all cause water to move upwards, not downwards. If you wish to maintain your assertion you need to provide relevant and convincing citations.

    Are you referring to the recent announcement of hydrated ringwoodite that points to substantial volumes of bound water in mantle minerals? Kepler, H. [3] This is not present as water, but is part of the crystal structure of the minerals present at depth. If this is not what you are referencing please provide a citation.

    Which is not something that can happen because the water is not there as water.

    If you are going to talk about a technical subject you need to use appropriate technical terms. I have never heard of an aggressive downward state. (Neither have google Scholar or PubMed.)

    Bollocks. Superionic water may exist in the interiors of the giant planets, not in the mantle of the Earth. If you wish to maintain this is true you need to produce some serious citations.

    Bollocks. The character - age, composition, origin, etc - of the Mid-Atlantic ridge is well understood. It does not require fanciful, unfounded nonsense to explain it. For example, see Masalu, D.C.P. [4]

    Guess all you want, but unless you can provide peer reviewed citations to back up your ramblings they would be best confined to the privacy of your own home and not spewed forth on a science forum, where they may alarm the children.

    1. Bercovici, D. "Generation of plate tectonics from lithosphere–mantle flow and void–volatile self-lubrication." Earth and Planetary Science Letters 154 139–151 (1998)
    2. Mysen, BO, Mibe, K & Chou, IM. Structure and equilibria among silicate species in aqueous fluids in the upper mantle: Experimental SiO2–H2O and MgO–SiO2–H2O data recorded in situ to 900° C and 5.4GPa Journal of Geophysical Research: Solid Earth, Vol. 118, 6076–6085 (2013)
    3. Kepler, H. Geology: Earth's Deep Mantle Nature 507, 174–175 (13 March 2014)
    4. Masalu, D.C.P. Mapping absolute migration of global mid-ocean ridges since 80 Ma to Present Earth Planets Space, 59, 1061–1066, (2007)
     
  20. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    12,451
    Ophiolite, first may I say what a pleasure it is to see you pop up here?

    Regarding our friend Wellwisher, some of us play a slightly unworthy game called "Wellwisher Bingo", in which we look for instances of the mention of the keywords: water, entropy, hydrogen bonds and liberals [sic], in his posts. Almost all of them contain some variation on these four themes. I see two of them feature in his effort here. He is unfailingly good-humoured but impervious to reason.

    Nevertheless your erudite reply may prove informative to other readers…...
     
  21. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    9,232
    Thank you for your kind remarks. I had recognised that wellwisher was a crank. The three approaches to cranks are:
    1. Ignore them
    2. Say bollocks several time.
    3. Blind them with meaningful science.

    As you can see I opted for a mix of 2 and 3.
     
  22. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    aka john galt?
     
  23. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    You might think so.

    I couldn't possibly comment.
     

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