Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement. Is it a moral religion?

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In the Old Testament, Satan was the intermediate between God and man. This can be seen in the Book of Job, where God is listening to Satan and doing bad things to Job, all at Satan's Request. God is sort of neutral and is using the council of Satan to test Job for faithfulness. This alliance between God and Satan, started with Lucifer who was the morning star and a very beautiful creation. Satan is evolving and changing. Their relationship ends in Revelations, when Satan is finally throw out of heaven. Revelations happens after the death of Jesus, so Satan still had God's ear when Christ is executed.

If you read the bible, before Jesus started his ministry, he goes into the desert for 40 days to meditate. There he encounters Satan who offers him power, wealth and immortality if he bows and serves Satan. Jesus could have avoided all the pain and death and had a life of power, ease and endless wives, if he agreed to go along with Satan. Satan was still in heaven and would talk to God and get his way.

Had Christ taken the deal, he would have become the Fire and Brimstone Messiah of the Old Testament, expected by the Jews. This Messiah vision would subdue their enemies, and set up a powerful and rich kingdom. The Jews expected a powerful and prestigious Messiah and not a weak and poor one that any man could kill. By refusing the anticipated Messiah offer, Jesus had fore filled prophesies by becoming something that was better.

The path chosen by Jesus, led to Satan getting the boot. Jesus did not what to be a middle man to Satan, but rather a humble servant to the big guy; God. In the end Michael the Archangel escorts Satan out of heaven and Jesus assumes his position in the council of God.

Satan was connected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which amounts to law. With Satan no longer the intermediate, law of good and evil was made void. The replacement is the spirit of truth, which is neutral and factual instead of emotional. You need to look at the big picture. Jesus had a choice and he chose wisely. This is why he is so well likes; he choose death to free us all for sin since sin is not imputed when there is no law; no Satan and tree of knowledge in Heaven.

 

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Foolishness as I can show from your first quote.

"I have come so that they may have life, and have it to the full. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep” John 10:9- 11

Any shepherd that lays down his life for his sheep, his job, a materialistic endeavor, is a fool.

To prove this, just look at yourself. Would you lay down your life for a job?

You also will know that at end times, God has promised to pour the vast majority of us into the lake of fire and death.

Does that sound like God willing to die for us?

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" A man can have no greater love, than to lay down his own life for his friends."

Why did God not love his friends or us enough not to condemn us?

Why did he love his own son so little that he did not die in his place?

You can now hide behind the stupid trinity concept but ithat will not fly.

Regards
DL

 

Interesting. And how does this speak to the morality of substitutionary atonement?

Regards
DL

 

It will only make sense when you take into account the Jewish history before Xt.

Heisman wrote:

"God is almost identical with the defining ability to change one’s “source code”. While DNA, the “source code” of biological life, has been largely unchangeable until recently, Judaism took a leap forward with a systematic Mosaic override of the highest rules of behavior. The laws of Moses were an innovation comparable to a prospective artificial intelligence’s ability to change its own source code. By taking a step towards changing the sociobiological source code of the Jews, the non-biological intelligence of Mosaic law launched the ultimate messianic trajectory of monotheism. The final step in this trajectory for biological humans is the transfer of the informational content of human biological roots into the memes of a digital computational technology.

The deepest roots of Biblical monotheism demonstrate its deepest rootlessness. Abraham’s willingness to kill his son Isaac at the command of God is the classic demonstration that God is not be confused with family values or biological values. God is not slavery to the laws of genetic preservation. Abraham’s willingness to kill his son represents the ultimate, irreconcilable conflict between genes and memes; the ultimate conflict between the rule of biology and the rule of God. The end logic of monotheism was latent in its beginnings." [Suicide Note]



Death according to the OT and the Bible is not a natural condition of humanity. It is an aberration. When man was created he was not created to die, but to live indefinitely; “just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.” Romans 5:12", while pagan sacrifices understood life and death as what kept the connection between the gods and the humans going... like in the case of Iphigenia as Kierkegaard compared to show why they were different--- here it is Agammemnon's promise to the Gods for favourable auspices, an oath-keeping, than the other way of God asking for a promise, a faith as in the case of Abraham.

The stalling of Isaac's sacrifice was to promise no death would ever come to the believer, etc.
It is a rhetoric where the father portrayed as ready to kill his son is replaced by God's mercy, as the real life-giving, benevolent father.
This is a clear announcement of who is the real Father of all fathers.

The prevention of sacrifice is taken on by Christ's sacrifice was The sacrifice to end all sacrifice.
This morality is what gives Judeo-Xt. its hyper-inflation - the Chosen Ones and the cult of equality where no one is to be sacrificed, killed, because all have either special worth [Judaism] or equal worth [Xt.] in the eyes of God.

 

Let's end barbaric human sacrifice by having another one. Great logic that. To a fool.

Regards
DL

 

"I have come so that they may have life, and have it to the full. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep” John 10:9- 11

Any shepherd that lays down his life for his sheep, his job, a materialistic endeavor, is a fool.

To prove this, just look at yourself. Would you lay down your life for a job?

Christ is a paradox for God and Man, His Image and likeness. He is A Redeemer for God, and A Savior for Man. So, as God has done in the Christ, Man His Image is required to reciprocate. Christ, is a currency for God and Man which they use to purchase each others kingdom. So, if you want the Kingdom of God, you are called to purchase it with your Christ. Meaning be the Christ.

You also will know that at end times, God has promised to pour the vast majority of us into the lake of fire and death.

Well God in the Christ is the Lake of Fire. He calls us to be like Him hear on earth, in order to avoid Him in the hereafter.

Does that sound like God willing to die for us?

He has already died, and you are called to Resurrect Him, in You

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" A man can have no greater love, than to lay down his own life for his friends."

Why did God not love his friends or us enough not to condemn us?

God has not condemned you. He gave you a savior.

“Yes, God loved the World, so much, that He gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him, may not be lost, but may have, everlasting live" John 3:16

Why did he love his own son so little that he did not die in his place?

God is a living God and has nothing to do with death. Death is a creation of Man through sin.

You can now hide behind the stupid trinity concept but ithat will not fly.

Follow the logic, and you will be saved.

Regards
DL[/QUOTE]

 

"Satan is finally throw out of heaven."

A very puzzling question to ponder, is this issue of Yahweh God, being a God who loves humanity, and being the same God who deliberately had Satan thrown into the earth. A creature associated with all things evil. Its very difficult for a rationalist to understand how God, had this sinister evil spirit, thrown into the world, and reconcile it with a God who allegedly loves humanity. We read: “ And now, war broke in heaven, when Michael with his angels, attached the dragon. The dragon fought back, with his angels, but they were defeated and thrown out of heaven. The great dragon, the primeval serpent, known as the devil, or Satan, who had deceived all the world, was hulled down to the earth, and his angels were hulled with him” Revelation 13: 7-10 How then, can we understand God’s action of throwing Satan to the earth, having anything to do with his love for humanity? Is it really love of humanity for God to throw an evil spirit amongst his children? Is not this the same as throwing the wolf amongst the sheep, or a fox amongst the chicken? Does that show ones love for the sheep or the chicken? These are logical and simple questions. If God threw Satan on earth because Satan challenged Him, what does that imply, about Yahweh’s regard for human beings? Would God rather have Satan frustrating humanity, rather than challenging him? Doesn’t that imply God as being indifferent to the fate of humanity, with Satan roaming around, throwing spanners to every human endeavor, roaring like a lion, and devouring humanity? How can God proof that He loves humanity, in spite of presence of Satan amongst them? Doesn’t the apparent presence of Satan, and evil in the world, and human suffering make God liable for all the suffering in this world? After all, could not man claim Gods liability to evil through negligence? He creates an evil Spirit, then, he has him thrown into the world. And this spirit is associated with evil in the world. How has God accepted his responsibility to the evil in Satan? These are serious, and difficult questions, which one can be sure, have perplexed many. They are also questions which are hulled gleefully, on the Christians by atheists, and no believers, which leave Christians dazed with bewilderment, since they do not have clear answer. And therefore, they are questions that we must tackle, if we are to find the logic behind it all.

 

This morality is what gives Judeo-Xt. its hyper-inflation

That is true, and you are right. But, its not that God operates the way Judeo-Christians think He operates. They selectively interpret the bible acording to how sweet they want it to sound and appear for them. Its self-delusion.

Christians must understand that God the Father of all fathers, has finished with Man. This happened when Christ said so. "When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."John 19:30 Having died for Man without sin, Jesus replaced Man, or Satan or the Devil. That's why the Devil was thrown down on earth, because He was a creation of Man, not God.

So, the Chosen ones for God, are neither Christians, nor the Jews! The chosen One for God, is the Christ, the Redeemer of Man. So, if the Jews an the Christians continued to jostle for Choosiness, sorry, its been taken all ready. And Christ does not choose anybody. He is chosen by Man who takes his cross and follows Him.. “ Anyone who prefers his mother or father, to me, is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life, will loose it. Anyone who looses his life for my sake will find it.” Mathew 10: 38-39

So much for hyperinflation.

 

Nvm

 

BIGFOOT

You ignore where I refute your garbage and you just add more without dealing with the last.

Nice debate tactic. You never have to show any intelligent thought and can still delude yourself into thinking you are making pints. How sad for you.

Would you kill yourself for your job?

If not then stop saying that Jesus would abandon the majority for a minority.

Regards
DL

 

“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.” Winston S. Churchill

 

LMAO Winston Churchill wouldn't have known the truth if it knocked him on his ass. Damn hypocrite couldn't see or admit that much of what he criticized Germany for, England was doing in India & elsewhere.

 

The first thing that anyone doubting the authenticity of Christianity would do is doubt God. Though God conceived of his ultimate salvation plan before the Creation, he is all-powerful, all-knowing, and has a conscious (an all-powerful conscious) so he would plan or he would not plan (it doesn't matter). What matters is God's will anytime it happens and you don't doubt God's will. God is ultimately aware and spiritually concerned. His aura and his body are prophecy. He is the Master. He lives in realities where salvation has happened again and again so this isn't the first time salvation has happened. (I.e. the seven Adams and Ascended Masters and avatars).

 

Why would he knowingly create beings that require salvation?

 

This is the Logic: God is the creator. So, he creates creation. But to appreciate his creation, He got to be there personally to appreciate His creation. But He is a creator, not a creation. So, what he gonna do? He creates a Spirit, His own image and likeness, and give Him authority over His creation. But this Image of God, is a creation of God, who does not know that he is a creator, who is also a creation of God. So, we have a problem. Here is God, who knows Himself as a Creator. And here is Image of God, who only knows Himself as a creation. So, when this Image creates, he relates to the creation wrongly, and therefore he is unable to appreciate Gods creation the way God intended. What would God do? If he leave His Image to learn about himself as a Creator who is a Creation, there is no possibility that this Image will ever know Himself as a Creator, who is the Image of God. That also means that God will also never be able to appreciate His Creation, because His Image failed to know Himself as a Creator and a Creation, and relate to God's creation correctly, by Creating goodness. The Image of God, thus creates wrongly which is "evil" And God is left with no alternative but to create another Spirit, which will help the Image of God, learn about Himself as a Creator and a Creation. That is why God sends a Redeemer, who is the savior, and the teacher of the Image of God, about goodness. So this Redeemer appears as Caused Created, and Manifested by God, and His Image. But since the Image of God does not know Himself as a Creators, he relates to the Redeemer wrongly and kills Him. But since the Redeemer knows that He is the True Image of God, and His Image, He Honors God, and His Image by surrendering to both God and His Image and lets the will of God and His Image be Manifested In Him. The will of God, is to have a Redeemer of His Image. The Will of the Image of God, is to be the Highest of all creations on earth. When the Redeemer Honors God and His Image, the Image kills the Redeemer. The Redeemer begs God to forgive the Image, thus, He fulfills the will of God and His Image unto death. God then Resurrects, Him, and gives Him power over His Image. End of the bible story.

 

He cannot be all-powerful as he cannot reproduce true and must covet another man's woman to produce his half breed chimera son and scapegoat.

Why does an ultimate salvation plan have to include the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty when we all know that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral?

Why did God create an immoral salvation plan?

Show how punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is just if you think it moral.

Regards
DL

 

You asked this same question on TWC. And I'll say the same thing here that I said there: it's all about context.

 

It is all about deflection.

Regards
DL