Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement. Is it a moral religion?

Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement. Is it a moral religion?

The case of substitutionary atonement that I wish to speak of is when God deemed it moral and just to punish his innocent son Jesus, --- instead of punishing the guilty sinners that God was to condemn.

The strange part of this situation is that God had chosen to sacrifice Jesus even before the potential for sin was created, --- God had yet to create the earth, --- showing that what God was killing Jesus for, --- he had yet to create.

This was an arbitrary choice for God that was completely needless. God could have chosen to punish the guilty, --- what most call justice, --- or God could have found a moral way to forgive us. Instead, God chose to do the unjust and punish the innocent instead of the guilty.

The sacrifice was to pay or bribe God to change his usual policy of punishing the guilty to immorally punishing Jesus. God could have shown mercy and justice but instead decided to use an unjust method to forgive us.

That means that to be a good Christian, you have to accept and embrace the immoral tenet of human sacrifice and the notion that the best form of justice, --- when one wants to forgive someone, --- is to kill an innocent party.

As above so below.

At the end of days, God is to bring his law to earth.

Would you, as an innocent party, think it just if God punished you instead of the guilty?

Do you think that Jesus would ever preach such an immoral form of justice?

Regards
DL

 

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Interesting argument. I'm sure there's a body of discussion about this - how Jesus was meant to be a bridge between man and God or something, revealing the actuality of human existence to God. Then again, if God is ominpotent, He would surely know this.

That being said, Jesus didn't die, so far as I recall, to forgive sins so much as to allow sins to be forgiven, presumably without material sacrifice. You're still culpable for your own badness, you just don't need a goat to clear the register come Sunday. So maybe it's economically immoral. Then again, the bloody goat didn't do anything either, did it? Interesting point, though.

 

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Yes and perhaps a Christian will drop by to speak of those points.

Regards
DL

 

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It matters whether a Christian drops by?

 

Why would anyone assume that a religion could be moral? Maybe in the moment of bliss that accompanies a good idea, but between there and reality, we get Jerry Falwell or some other hideous monster.

Faith is a substitute for reason, and so many fundies think it's the frigging cure!

God help the rest of us.

Or not. Today is a good day to die!

 

Christianity is a joke just like all other religions in my opinion. It doesn't take a genius to realize that there is no God and that all religions are fake.

The way I see it all religions are nothing more than a coping mechanism that people use in order to relieve their panic fear of the finality of death and also to help them deal with the cruel things that people do to each other and the cruel things than happen to people in this world in general.

Religion is used to comfort people by telling them that good things will happen to them in the next world after they die but except as a means to comfort sad people I just don't see the evidence for any of these promises.

 

If we are to have a decent argument, yes.

Regards
DL

 

I do not assume that a religion is moral till it proves itself so. The bulk of the mainstream religions have shown they are not yet we listen to their lies while they dip into the taxpayers pocket thanks to the exceptions we give them.

That is you and I paying to have them lie to others.

Regards
DL

 

No argument.

Regards
DL

 

Why? Gnostic revenge? Wasted sentiment.

 

Trolling would be my guess. Say Geoff, you're too tolerant. If I may offer a suggestion: please don't feed the troll.

 

You're probably right. It's in my training to give everything and everyone a fair shake.

And then possibly to shake them.

Back under thy bridge, o' Troll! I have an iron horseshoe and I will use it!

 

“ And when I am lifted up from the earth, I shall draw all men to myself” John 12: 31-32

There is an issue that most people even Christians do not understand. That Christ is the Currency that God and Man, the Human Spirit, use, in order to purchase each others kingdom. Christ is the Redeemer of the Human Spirit for God. His sacrifice was therefore not a One time Sacrifice, but a sacrifice in perpetuity. That's His role as The Melchizedek. The Priest for God and forever. The Christ having Redeemed the Human Spirit, all human being belong to Him. Christ, calls Man, to take his cross and follow Him, if Man does not want to experience the pain of God, which is HELL. Christ, is God of Hell, because the Human Spirit, is the Devil, who will be punished with fire.

This is the Christ before He came into the world.

“At the time I, Daniel was doing a three weeks penance, I ate no rich food, touched no meat, or wine, and did not anoint myself, until these three weeks were over. On the twenty fourth day of the first month, as I stood on the bank of the river, the Tigris, I raised my eyes to look about me, and this is what I saw; a man, dressed in linen, with a girdle of pure gold around his waist, his body was like pure beryl, his face shone like lightening, his eyes were fiery torches, his arms and legs had the gleam of burnished bronze, the sound of his voice was like the noise of a crowd" Daniel 10:2-6

 

You think human sacrifice moral. Have a look at some of the morality you like.


How will you get yourself into heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

Revisit substitutionary atonement or vicarious redemption and scapegoating with me just to refresh your memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNtBkOXItqw

I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Scapegoating IOW.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. You do. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just to prove it's benevolence. When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

If and when you say yes, you become his.

-----------------------------------

The other option in scriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Scriptures indicate that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, this will come to pass.

---------------------------------

It is a special distorted Christian view of love that sees, --- as the greatest act of love possible, --- their God condemning them, and then turning and demanding his son’s deaths and thus corrupting God's perfect justice. A bribe set by God as judge himself for himself. This is of course ridiculous.

Christians have an insane view of love, IMO.

Would you express your love for humanity or those you love by having your own child needlessly murdered?

Or if convinced that a sacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step up yourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

Your cowardly God did not.

Regards
DL

 

Christianity is a misunderstood doctrine, even by Christians themselves. You say, "In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it is immoral to kill the innocent." Christ is a paradoxical law from God. If you think God demanded a sacrifice of an innocent Man, then, what do we say of this statement by Jesus

“I have come so that they may have life, and have it to the full. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep” John 10:9- 11

“ A man can have no greater love, than to lay down his own life for his friends. You are my friends. If you do what I command you.” John 15:12-14

"The Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me. I lay it down of my free will and as it is in my power to lay it down, so, it is in my power to take it up again, and this is the command I have been given by my Father" John 10: 17-18

You can see therefore that Jesus willingly lay his life for Mankind. So, Christ is God the Son, doing the will of the Father. Remember, the Jews and the Romans did not know what they had just done. So, the argument that God demanded a sacrifice of innocent man, cannot be varied, unless there is evidence of God's demand. The only parson who knew about this sacrifice was Jesus himself. Even Jesus disciples did not understand this, until after resurrection.

Remember "The Road to Emmaus"

"Then He said to them, 'You foolish men, so slow to believe the message of the prophets. Was it not ordained that the Christ should suffer and so, enter into His glory?" Then he started with Moses, and going through the prophets he explained to them the passages throughout the scriptures that were about Himself" Luke 24:25-27

So, in as much as Christ made himself a sacrifice, he made himself a sacrifice for God, on behalf of all human race. As the Third Spirit, from God, Christ is a Neutral Spirit, because He is the Son of God and Man, the Human Spirit. Therefore, having sacrificed himself on behalf of all mankind, Christ only saves the person who helps him save the world-by imitating Him. So, the notion that Christ is the sacrifice that was shed for the world once and for all, is an illusion to most Christians. As God the Trinity, salvation comes from God, three times. The Father must save you, then the Spirit, and lastly the Son. That is why there is Salvation by Grace, then Salvation by Faith through works and lastly Salvation by endurance. Salvation by Grace is by God the Father. This salvation, is through adoption, and its free for everyone. This, is because Christ has Redeemed everyone. We all belong to the Christ. That having been said, the rest of salvation is NOT FREE And here, is where most Christians get it wrong! Salvation by Faith, must be backed by Works of Charity, and moral uprightness. This Salvation, is like an institution, where you come to know good and evil, and learn to always choose good.

“You are the Light of the World. A city built on a hill-top cannot be hidden. No one lights a lamp to put it on under a tub; they put it on a lam-stand where it shines for everyone tin the house. In the same way, your light must shine in people’s sight, so that seeing your good works, they may give praise to your Father in heaven”. Mathew 5: 14-16.

“.I want you to be quite uncompromising in teaching all this, so that those who now believe in God may keep their minds constantly occupied in doing good works. All this is good and will do nothing but good to everybody .” Titus 2:11-15 3:8-10
“ Then I heard a voice from heaven say to me, 'Write down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord! Blessed indeed, the Spirit says; now they can rest for ever after their work, since their good deeds go with them.'” Revelation 14:13

So, as you can see, many so-called "Christians" who think that Christianity is a free-lunch to heaven is an illusion.

 

The history of Man, his search for God, and the history of God, reaching out to Man, is the History of the Creator God, wanting to know Himself as a creation, and the History of a Creation Man, learning about himself as a Creator. So, God created the Universe, and this beautiful earth, thus knowing himself as the Creator. But for God to complete knowing about himself, he had to know Himself as a creation. So, He had to be there, amongst his creation, and appreciate his creation. So, how did he do this? That, is the Bible story.

God created creation as a Law differentiated. The law, is first Intelligently Self-controlling Law. In this state, the law is a Conscious Law. That's why God, is Consciousness. The law, then becomes spontaneously creative and subjective. In this state, the Law, is a sub-conscious Law. The Law lastly becomes spontaneously Manifesting Law. The Law, in this state, is an unconscious Law. Its the law, that manifests Gods creation. The reason Matter, is made of three subatomic particles, with differentiated charges. We have the Proton, a positively charged light wave. Then we have the Neutron, a neutrally charged Light wave, and lastly we have the Electron the Negatively charged Light Wave. That, is the Trinity who is God.

Now, as its obvious, the realm of Manifestation, is an unconscious Realm. Thats why, we human being are in dream state, which makes us perceive "objective" reality, because all we ever know about the world is what our senses tell us. And our tools are basically subjective, just as in dream. So, what you need to know, is that how ever objective the world looks, your senses are deluding you. You are asleep, and you need to wake up-consciously.

So, what happened after God created the earth?

God created a human Spirit, to cause Consciousness on earth. “The word of Yahweh about Israel. It is I, Yahweh, who speaks, who spread the heaven, and founded the earth, and formed the Spirit of Man, within him.” Zechariah 12:1-2

This Spirit, was the Image and Likeness of God. “God said, ‘Let us make Man, in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild beasts, and all the reptiles that crawl upon the earth’ God created man, in the image of himself, and in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them. “Genesis 1:26-29.

This Spirit, was to express the consciousness of God, on earth. “The Human Spirit, is the lamp of Yahweh-searching the deepest self” Proverbs 20:27

BUT MAN WAS ASLEEP................to be continued.

 

Your citation of my post:

My sentence, as written, reads:

I have emphasised the connecting text. Why was your quote parsed?

Oh, because magic. Magic to the next question, and to the one after. Magic. Logic explanations don't fit the issue. But, so long as no one is murdering people and afterward claiming well, magic in this era, whatever.

 

Er... not correct citation format. Let's try harder to get my statements correct: there's been kind of an plague of deliberate mis-citation of me over the last few years, so... y'know. Sort it out. Thanks.