Runaway Global Warming

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by Facial, Jul 11, 2014.

  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    Quick answer: No.
    You speak basically non-sense about "gravitational COG instabilities." I would like you to be more specific as to what that even means and the time scale for a significant movement of the Earth's center of gravity.

    Let me note that yes the CoG does move mainly along the Earth's spin axis (not magnetic axis, which is a somewhat different) with great regulatity in a full cycle period of 12 months. I.e. the mass of snow and ice in the Northern Hemisphere increases in winter. This shift has been happing for a very long time as the spin axis of earth is tilted 23.5 degrees from the orbit plane's normal. (Thus Earth has seasons.)

    What other shift you can suggest that is even 0.000,1 as great or as fast?

    Also note the Earth/moon barycenter orbits the sun in nearly perfect ellipse and has for an equally long time (as the ~23.5 degree tilt.) The separation between earth and moon, is slowly increasing, and has been for millions of years. (I.e. every since the moon "belonged to the earth." I don't know when or how Earth got its moon, but there had to be some "third body" involved. Before earth got ist moon, the spin axis may have significantly different from the current 23.5 degrees, but probably not by 10 degrees.)

    Again, to not appear so ignorant, please be more specific as to what significant movement of the Earth's center of gravity you refer to, what causes it, what tiny fraction of the seasonal shift it makes, and what is the time scale for your postulated shift, which is important to GW.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2014
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  3. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    You need a longer timeframe for your chart.
    There was a simular cluster of earthquakes 60-70 years ago.
    It seems that all energy we've ever observed comes in pulses.
    Here's a partial list of earthquakes of 8 and above, more at: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/historical_mag_big.php
     
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  5. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Have you ever heard or read about something called a gee-whiz graph or gee-whiz chart.
    It is a chart or graph which has had removed it's bottom or side so that it only shows the data which sells your idea.
    Once you acknowledge that people play with statistics and charts/graphs in such a manner, their use and abundance in in of it's self is quite informative.
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, it was just plain human error; they have analyzed it to death and understand in detail all the mistakes they made. It was undoubtedly a poor design, but not one that guaranteed an accident.
    (As proof that it was not an inherent flaw destined to doom all such nuclear power plants, the other nuclear reactors in the complex ran until 2000, when the last one was shut down. That's another 14 years.)
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,635
    And yet reactors work just fine in the microgravity of orbit. The claim that millionths of a G change could destroy a nuclear reactor, but a full G change will not, is not credible. (Same with the changes in magnetic field that a reactor sees in orbit.)
    It is among the easiest force to measure. A scalar change affects spring based scales. A vector change affects levels. Such tools are widely used.

    What, specifically, would a small change in magnetic field do to a fission reaction?
     
  9. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    Here is an informative video on cloud seeding etc. (from NOAA & NASA & Livermore facts and speaker inserts) acknowledging the power of silver iodide to make rain locally but suggesting it also makes droughts and is a very toxic, long lasting hazard - a bad idea being widely used with active government support since the 1970s and on smaller scale, prior to 1960.
    I. e. man has been doing large scale "geoengineering" for nearly 50 years and perhaps with consequences for humans as bad as his CO2 release! Jump in at a little past 12 minutes to learn that this may be part of why Sao Paulo has only 3.5% of the reservoir's water remaining and the Amazon is now often a net source of CO2. At 19 minutes into video is a summary of four main adverse effects discussed earlier.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2014
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    Still having problem that caused prior delete. Please open all with click.
     
  11. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    10,890
    Quite.
    It was the design of the reactor and the experiment they were conducting and the management attitudes at the time and, as I recall, some unfortunate timing.
     
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,328
    Yes of course and personally I don't take casually sourced data all that seriously any way. However one thing that does stick for me and gets a 9/10 is that all the data sets that I have looked at, fraudulent of other wise seem to share one unexpected commonality and that is 1985/86.
     
  13. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    The fields I am referring to are not external to the reactor but are internal atomic scaled fields. So ambient global gravitational and magnetic factors are not so important but can be used as indication of something anomalous is occurring generally.

    Not if the universality of the gravitational constant was the issue [items would invariably appear to weigh the same]


    The issue deals with what I hypothesis is that a fundamental anomaly in the constancy of Gravity manifesting locally during 1985/86.
    This anomaly amongst many things effects all substances, culminate or individually, organic or non-organic.
    It also impinges upon the integrity of magnetic fields. (organic or non-organic)
    There are indications and I do mean indications, not facts, that a very slight loss of pole symmetry is involved as well.
    mathematically it might be rendered as:
    +1 + (-)0.9995 = 0
    N and S poles loosing exact symmetry

    So it could be proposed that a major loss of magnetic integrity would effect all atomic structures.
    It is further proposed that when a nuclear reactor is being pushed to it's limits as was the case at Chernobyl this loss of integrity may become evident. It takes the extreme situation to manifest the issue.
    Like a pyramid on it's tip teetering [thanks Trippy], and just waiting for something to come along and tip it over.
    If the assessment is found to be correct Chernobyl was ironically and tragically a lucky wake up call for the future of similar reactors on the presumption that magnetic integrity was trending to the adverse.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    anecdotal gossip of magnetic pole asymmetry can be possibly inadvertently revealed by the Steorn Industry fiasco of 2004, with a pseudo free energy magnetic device called ORBO.

    It was an utter fiasco and a lot of money was spent (+$400k usd) promoting it's demonstration. I tend to believe that Steorn did in fact have a device that functioned but only because they were working off a playing field that was no longer strictly adhering to the laws of thermo dynamics. The microscopic asymmetry as mentioned above, was enough to get their device happening however observer effects were enough to neutralize any gain they may have had... so that when they attempted to demonstrate it in front of world web cast and media it failed to operate. Remember this is gossip only...
    Of course Steorn like any business will attempt to capitalize on failure and recover it's investment, thus claims of fraud against them have a certain weight. Not to mention the conspiracy of petro chem dollars interest etc...
    for those that may be interested here is a link to their web site
    http://www.steorn.com/orbo/
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,635
    Are you referring to the strong and weak nuclear forces? If so those forces are measured with a fair amount of regularity (primarily in high energy physics experiments) and no change has been noted.
    Changing the gravitational constant would change the orbits of the planets within our solar system dramatically. Again, that hasn't happened.
    How would a change in gravity affect magnetic fields?
    What is "magnetic integrity?" What do you claim changed exactly?
    Why do you think a fission reactor (which does not depend on magnetic fields) would be affected, but every generator in the world (which depends entirely upon magnetic fields) every CRT (also dependent on magnetic fields) and every motor (same) would not be?
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    1)That had nothing apparent to do with Chernobyl. 2) No, you didn't, actually. You made a vague reference to something unspecified about the earth's core, but no mechanism to connect that with any of the data we have concerning the ongoing warming trend.
    The questions you were asked was 1) how in the world you imagine that to have happened, given the vanishingly small forces involved in any fluctuations of the earth's magnetic field. Do you imagine that workers at nuclear reactors are not allowed to park their cars near the plant because the permanent magnets in their alternators and solenoids might destabilize the reactor cores? That all tools and machinery in a reactor complex, including the forklifts and robotic gear, must be made of magnetically neutral materials?

    and 2) what in your view is incomplete or wrong about the standard, Wikipedia presented account of Chernobyl?

    The control rods and other safety provisions were not beyond human control, but were instead deliberately disabled. The reactor was placed in its fragile situation by human agency and error, described in detail with timelines and everything by easily netsearched sources. Of course they could not control a launched meltdown - but control of a nuke does not involve meltdown. "Control" means no meltdown. Meltdown means failure of control.

    There's plenty of data and it's easily sufficient to justify proper action.
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,328
    Iceaura,
    Unfortunately the world generally appears to disagree with you. I think this is mainly due to the perception that the rate of climate change exceeds, by many orders, the rate predicted by most models presented.

    "They could stop all CO2 inputs immediately and we will still be in deep sh*t big time, so why bother?" type attitude no doubt...

    CO2 levels can not alone be held responsible for what we are currently experiencing and what we are likely to experience in the next 12 months or so.. IMO
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,328
    I was asked by a female environmental lobby group donation collector for support to save the Great Barrier Reef (QLD) from oil exploitation and I responded by suggesting that the barrier reef was a lost cause due to rising water levels and that perhaps she should be lobbying to save the 45,000 walruses trapped, land locked, and starving to death up in the ice free Artic!

    So little is understood about the current situation due to the sheer pace of change that is occurring globally and clinging to the old "CO2 is responsible" paradigm aint helping. IMO
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    duplicate
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Not the informed folks.
    Where would anyone get a silly and ignorant "perception" like that?

    Two months ago the denialist take on CO2 boost effects was that the boost was happening faster than the warming, so they weren't connected. Now it's the boost that is supposed to be lagging, and the warming too fast to be boost caused?

    You guys need to get your stories straight.
     
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,328
    And your response to this please :
     
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,328
    Unbelievable!!! Sao Paulo 40 million people, less than 3.5% fresh water reserves. What are they going to do when that 3.5% dries up?
    40M people is a lot of thirsty people....summer nearly there!
    Terrible news Billy T....
     

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