Is currency evil?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by DestroyCurrency?, Oct 2, 2013.

  1. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    Agreed, with the rise of American conservatism, talk radio, and entertainment it has become fashionable and profitable to blame money and everything related to it for all troubles large and small and truth and reason have become irrelevant for those folks - ignorance and misinformation abound.
     
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  3. Locust Registered Member

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    No Joe. Only funny thing is that you dont have arguments but made this personal.
     
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  5. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Except for the very serious and reasoned arguements you refuse to acknowledge. Closing your eyes and refusal to acknowledge fact, reason and reality is odd and unfortunately all to common. Your belief that you have some secret knowledge that highly educated professionals do not is indeed odd. The fact is your belief that "local currency" has some magical benefit is indeed odd given it runs counter to history.

    As explained to you before "local" currency makes absolutely no sense in an time of globalization. It is inefficient, costly, and subject to fraud and risk. The founding fathers tried it. It failed, that is why we have our Constitution. The example you cited had nothing to do with the actual currency, but rather the Keynesian effects of an expanded monetary base.

    Now you can and probably will continue to play the victim card and ignore reality and history so you can continue to cling to your beliefs, but it won't make your beliefs any less irrational.
     
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  7. Locust Registered Member

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    62
    Again, yada, yada, yada,...nada.
    Hey Joe...1o times you use term "you" or "your" in 8 sentences. This is not personal. But still no argument except "our founding fathers, you know". Which founding fathers? Mongolian? Albanian? Iranian? Somalian? I smell nationalism.
    Nevertheless Swiss showed that yours "founding fathers" failed. Well Swiss, for example, were successfull. Errr...Why is local currency Keynesian and not neo classic or monetarist ?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    At least I hope there is reason behind using word "Keynesian"...except liking it.

    edit: oh and I do have knowledge. And its secret only to people who are ignorant or do not study subject. Or both.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    yours faithfully,

    "omniscience founding fathers".
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2014
  8. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    YOU have knowledge? That is reminiscent of right wingers like Rush Limbaugh and company "low information" voters. You may have some information, but precious little is true or relevant. YOU are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist with a solution which will certainly create problems. You are basically scapegoating banks and corporations. People would find life very challenging without banks and corporations. Banks efficiently allocate capital, talking surpluses and putting it to work where it is needed. Corporations pool capital and minimize risk in order to efficiently deliver goods and services. Banks and corporations are not the problem either. The recent recession was not caused by currency. It was caused by special interests who deregulated the banking and securities industries.

    And the example you cited, was Keynesian for the reason previously cited. I suggest you read and learn.
     
  9. Locust Registered Member

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    62
    Well thats bizzare. Answering on question which I didnt proposed. :m: I wonder with who you argue? With yourself?
    I didnt notice any reason why you use term Kenyesian. Looks like Joes pistols cant hit target.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    LOL, ignorance is bliss until reality hits you in The face.
     
  11. pluto2 Banned Valued Senior Member

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    1,085
    Socialism, anarchism and communism are more moral and humanistic than the Capitalist economic ideology.

    In socialism and anarchism there is more equality between people.

    Capitalism, on the other hand, leads to vast inequality between people. In Capitalism most of the world's population is living on less than 2 dollars a day while the super-rich multi-billionaires like Bill Gates have an accumulated income of 80 billion dollars.

    I think we need to abolish money or at least abolish wage slavery if we ever want to have an egalitarian and moral society. Because in the society we live in, low wage workers are effectively slaves.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1zhd23_is-poverty-genetic_shortfilms
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    As pointed out several times in this thread, the problem is not with inanimate objects or digital code in a computer, it is with us. How well did communism work for Russia or the Easter Block countries or Cuba or anywhere else it was tried? Not well, and your points about capitalism are valid. That's why mixed systems coupled with democracy are the best.
     
  13. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    4,885
    Entrepreneurs seem to be unjustly maligned.

    Politicians have an obvious motive: They need a scapegoat just as the Nazis needed one in the 1930's. Fortunately, our current USA politicians are wonderful folks compared to Hitler & his followers.

    The liberal academic establishment does not seem to have an obvious motive. They were advocates of socialism/communism for a many decades prior to the Cold War of the 1950's. I suspect that their motive is related to the following comment by my father circa 1940
    I had asked him why my teachers seemed to be anti-entrepreneur.​

    BTW: Is Liberal Academic redundant in the above context?

    Billy T: In your Post #114 you mention a song well known to many
    The song is cute, but historically inaccurate. It is incredibly misleading about the nature of Company Stores & Company Towns. It is part of the mythology which maligned the so called Robber Barons.

    Company towns were created due to various industries (often mining related) which were located far from population centers in an era lacking modern transportation. A company had to supply living quarters & shopping facilities for its workers. While there were might have been a few abusive situations, those towns & shops were necessary. In many (most?) Places they could not get away with being oppressive.

    While there were no telephones, a person could write letters & some towns had telegraph capabilities. An oppressive town would become known to be a bad place to work. Furthermore, many folks could travel by horse to migrate & find work elsewhere.

    I have reprints of Sears catalogues from 1897 & 1909. They indicate a remarkable rise in the standard of living for typical farm & factory workers from 1800 to 1900. Some items from those catalogues.

    100 piece ordinary dinnerware set: $7.95 in 1897; $3.98 &$4.98 in 1909

    100 piece Haviland set: $20.55 in 1897; $19.98 in 1909

    Piano: $125.00 in 1897; $89.00 in 1909 (79.45 for 6-octave keyboard).
    Violin: $2.85 to $7.95 in 1897; $195 to $6.10 in 1909 (concert quality more expensive)

    Man’s suit: $2.98 to $4.75 in 1897;
    Man’s shirt: $0.38 to $1.50 in 1909; I could not find shirts in 1897 catalogue.​

    Many of the above items were not available to the typical farmer or factory worker in 1800.

    The above improvement in the standard of living was due to the activities of t he often maligned Robber Barons of the 19th century. They used technology & science to create the economic engine which made the USA a world power. Note that this was accomplished in a Laissez Faire environment which existed from circa 1750 to the early 20th century. The overhead due to government activities at the local, state, & national level seem to be slowing this engine significantly. Young adults of the early 21st century might be the first to be less affluent that their parents.

    Those Robber Barons did a lot of damage to their competitors, but were highly beneficial to their customers & others. Two interesting examples were Stephen Girard & John D. Rockefeller.

    Stephen Girard is credited with saving the USA government from financial collapse during the War of 1812. He devoted much of his fortune to philanthropy, particularly the education and welfare of orphans. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Girard

    Walter E. Williams wrote an essay relating to Rockefeller: The Pope & Capitalism. http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2013/12/18/the-pope-and-capitalism-n1763931/page/full
    He quotes the Pope as being against capitalism & then makes some comments, including the following
    Note that until the wide spread use of electricity in the 20th century, kerosene was used in many households & small businesses for both heat & light. The benefits of the price reductions was a boon for both individuals & small businesses.
     
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    That bold would have been true IFF their salaries were paid in dollars, instead of company printed script, which had value ONLY in the company store. Thus the companies COULD oppress, exploit, fire worker with too much black lung when his productivity fell too low, etc - any thing they wanted to do that helped boost profits.

    Yes, some had a horse, and could have ridden it out of the valley IF paid in dollars to seek work else where, but could not do that with big debt** to company store and no way to even buy food outside the valley. Most did not have a horse and could not read or write - your POV is very academic fiction - not realistic or historical, at least for the company stores of most mines.

    * Yes they were known to be terrible places to work that were exploiting worker even to their death with black lung disease - but what other choice did an illiterate teenager born in the valley have but to follow his dad into the mine? The truth was well known in West Virginia, where I went to poor *** public schools, fortunately in the capital city, Charleston, not a remote valley. - why the song was so long on the top of the hit parade.

    ** In almost all locations, the sheriff would arrest them and send them back to "work off their debts" - another impossible fiction.

    *** Educators said: "Thank God for Mississippi" (Other wise W.Va. would be 48, instead of 47 in the national ranking of public school quality.) I was lucky - my MD dad taught me some and his patient & friend, a malato professor at the negro institute, gave me many books, especially on college level math, that book companies gave him in hope that he would select one of them for his courses. They and the chief engineer of radio WCHS got together most Friday eves, to drink beer, talk especially about development in amateur radio, while I worked math problems in his books. - I got help occasionally on some, but became such a trouble maker in high school correcting teacher's errors**** - that I soon spent that hour in the principle's office - That was good luck too as he had been a math & physics professor and gave me more problems to do.

    **** He did not even know what determinates were, much less how to immediately write down the answer to set of three simultaneous linear equations with them for x, y, & z. It is not hard to evaluate a 3by 3 determinate of small integers in your head, especially if any are zero. I was immature, trying to be popular with other students by making a fool of him when ever I could - I regret that now - he was doing the best he could and I was just disrupting his classes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2014
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    No, it wasn't. The growing concentration of wealth in the robber baron estates was choking the economy, with even a robust and active entrepreneur capitalism built on unfettered access to a continent's worth of natural resources being damped by the dead weight of disproportionate wealth concentration in comparatively unproductive piles with few owners and no availability to the productive and active.

    That's what the revisionists say on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays and Fridays they are berating me for observing that plantation slavery was a product of laissez faire capitalism. The cognitive disconnect here is very strange.
     
  16. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    5,134
    Currency is like knowledge it can be obtained by the wicked while they exist before reason puts them away. However, they themselves are not evil. In fact evil represents the lack of a wealth... Virtue.
     
  17. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    On a small local scale that is undoubtedly true. But on a national scale, I don’t think so. When was the last time you heard some malign Steven Jobs or Elon Musk or Elizabeth Holmes or Steve Bezos?

    I don’t hear politicians maligning entrepreneurship, but on occasion I do hear politicians blaming bankers and other businesses, sometimes justly and sometimes not. But in the end, it is all sales puffery to fool the ignorant voter.

    I don’t know where you went to school, or if you went to school, but there is no liberalism in academia. There is only fact and reason. Unfortunately, with the radicalization of American so called conservatism, anything to matter how factual or rational is slapped with the “liberal” label allowing so called conservatives to conveniently dismiss it without further thought. Unfortunately, slapping a “liberal” label on everything gives these so called conservatives an endless supply of “get out of jail” cards and they never have to face reality and politically inconvenient truths.

    Actually, the old song is factually correct. Robber barons were monopolists and they acted like monopolists. They by no means were the saints you make them out to be. And the company store was not just an American phenomenon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly#Monopoly_and_efficiency

    Yes some company stores were in remote areas. But they didn’t have to own the stores and housing and everything else that wasn’t nailed down. Those shops were necessary, but the monopoly wasn’t. And that is the point you are missing. And there were many abusive situations, not just a few.

    You just said these places were remote as a justification for the company store. Now you want people to believe they were not remote. ..ok.

    The Sherman Anti-Trust Act was enacted in 1890. So the price declines you attribute to monopolists occurred after monopolies were made illegal. Does that make senses to you? Does that sound laisse-faire to you?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law

    Actually, while it is true monopolists (i.e. robber barons) did do a lot of damage to their competitors, they were not so beneficial to their consumers and consumers would have been better served by competitive markets. I suggest you read the previously referenced Wiki article on monopolies. Monopolies, if unregulated, are very inefficient. Capitalism is good at allocating resources only because of competition. Competition is the secret sauce to capitalism. And monopolies are the antithesis of competition. It’s funny to watch so called conservatives espouse the value of competition but then give a carte blanche to monopolists.

    I don’t see how this is relevant. While it is true later in life some monopolists (i.e. robber barons) did engage in philanthropy, was it really charity or were they attempting to buy status and prestige – a little advertising? How many of those philanthropists donated anonymously?

    PS
    Yes Stephen Girard was a banker who financed the US government during the War of 1812 and became unbelievably wealthy in the process. But he wasn’t a monopolist. He invested in risk, in this case the US government, and was rewarded handsomely for that investment. The money he loaned the US government wasn’t charity.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  18. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    4,885
    My Post #14 answered the OP question:
    After the above Post, it would have made sense to close & lock this Thread. Instead it has continued.

    I have not read all of the Posts & apologize if some of my remarks are redundant.

    The following from Destroy Currency Post # 4 is a great idea, but who works to produce all the goodies?
    BTW: The credits seem to currency & the proposed system would require quite a bureaucracy to implement it: A regime like the wonderful USSR seems to be an obvious answer.

    It would be interesting to consider how people would choose or be assigned to particular jobs. I doubt that anyone would choose some of the more menial and/or boring jobs. This implies drafting of people for those tasks.
     
  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    to Dinosaur - a simple question:
    If not designed to limit the coal miner's choice - force him to pay what ever price the company store set - why was he paid in company script, instead dollars that would give him a choice as to where to buy some things - for example order his blue-jeans from Sear's Catalog as farmers did?

    Currency is not necessarily evil, but script is - exploitation is it only reason to exist instead of paying in dollars (or whatever the widely accepted local currency is).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2014
  20. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    5,134
    Is feeling bad, when you fuck around its pain, but when your good...
     
  21. pluto2 Banned Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,085
    I think I disagree. Democracy is inherently corrupt. Lets not forget that it was democracy that resulted in the election of Hitler and this proves that democracy is corrupt.

    I think that some form of libertarian socialism (also called anarchist socialism or social anarchism) is the best system, as envisioned by American linguist Noam Chomsky.

    I think that some form of communism or libertarian socialism was also eenvisioned by John Lennon in his song "Imagine":


    Imagine there's no heaven
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today...

    Imagine there's no countries
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace...

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world...

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one

    http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnlennon/imagine.html
     
  22. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Actually, no, democracy is not inherently corrupt. People are inherently corrupt. Unfortunately, you and those like you, and there are many, scapegoat institutions and others for our own frailties. And as long as we do that, we will never solve our very real problems. Projecting our own faults onto constructs doesn’t solve problems, though it might make us feel better.

    PS. Hitler not elected. Hitler was appointed chancellor and he never won a majority vote. Hitler came to power during a period of social unrest in Germany brought about by the Great Depression and the aftermath of WWI. And Hitler doesn’t prove anything about democracies.
    Here is the problem with libertarian socialism suffers from the same maladies that have vexed communism. It relies heavily on the belief that somehow magically, humans will stop behaving like humans. Maybe someday in the future we can change our DNA and breed out our propensity for corruption, avarice, deception, and violence, but until that day your libertarian socialism just like Marx’s socialism will never work.
    Lennon’s song was titled, “Imagine” for a reason. It isn’t reality or anything close to it.
    There is no perfection in this world. There is no form of governance that is without risk. There is no prefect form of governance. But thus far, democracy has worked better than any other form of governance. When we collectively make decisions, we tend to make better decisions, though the process of democratic decision making in a democracy isn’t pretty and usually not very fast.

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world...

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one

    http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnlennon/imagine.html[/QUOTE]
     
  23. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,160
    The main problem with communism and socialism is all the power becomes centralized in government, with little in the way of checks and balances. If human nature does not change, absolute power will corrupt absolutely. At least in democracies the power is distributed between government, businesses, and the masses through elections, lobbying, and consumerism. Nobody is able to obtain absolute power, so if human nature does not change, it is hard for leadership to be corrupted absolutely. No president can set up shop like in North Korea in a democracy.

    The main problem with democracies is not so much the people, since they would be the same masses if the country changed to a socialist or communists government. The real problem in democracies is the election process, does not always allow the will of the people to be served. One is often given the choice of the lessor of two evils, to speak in your behalf, with them beholden to half of the country via political party association in a two party system.

    The election process is designed around money, advertising, rhetoric and mudslinging. The result is those who get elected are often the best at the election process, but they may not be the best for the job, since this is two different skill sets.

    As an analogy, say we change the election process to be more like a mixed martial arts tournament. The person who wins this process will become president. The winner of this process will be someone who will be the best fighter. However, being the best fighter may not translate into the best person to run the country since these are two different skill sets. Many good people, who would be good leaders, will not even try because they know they can't compete in the process. One round of mudslinging would knock then out with the powers to be able to do illegal things to get dirt. It is not so much the people making a bad choice at will, but bad choices, by default.

    A democracy would be better if the election process was designed to end up with the best people for the job winning. This would eliminate grid lock and other forms of treachery needed by people in power, who lack absolute power, while not being the best for the job.

    The current election process has the advantage of making it possible for all the masses to participate. If the process was done in a purely intellectual way ,to choose a qualified leader, this process would lose most of the people,who do not relate well to egghead stuff. The mudslinging and rhetoric, appeals to people who like to gossip and watch fantasy on TV, allowing them to participate. It is not easy to design a process that picks the best while appealing to all levels of understanding.

    One change that could be made is the media is often biased for different candidates, with parts of the media biased to each side. At the same time, the media makes a lot of money with campaign adds. One way to make a change of the better would be to call any media bias, a campaign contribution, valued at the time rate they charge for candidates to advertise. There are campaign contribution limits in the law, and if they exceed these limits, they break the law or anyone can break the limit law. This was the press will not become the propaganda wing of any party, but a more balanced source of information for all. This does not limit free speech but obeys campaign law like all businesses need to do.
     

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