Help with English

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by Saint, Aug 24, 2011.

  1. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    But it is not limited to visual representation. It also includes sonic representation.

    In fact, I don't agree that "human representation" has the narrow meaning of the representation of humans. I think it refers to our ability to create representations of other things we see, and in fact also of abstractions such as hunger, love, and "this way to the airport."

    Language is surely our crowning achievement in the realm of representation. We have words (and of course grammatical and syntactic rules) that can (more or less) clearly identify to another person something we're thinking about that is not present--or which may be nothing more than an abstraction such as, "Life was a lot easier before those smart-asses invented clothing."

    We are not the only animals to use symbols--merely the only ones that use visual symbols. It's been well established that dolphins communicate with sound. We haven't had much luck deciphering their tweets and blips, but the one thing we have figured out is that each individual in the pack has a name. They use it to identify themselves at a distance, and also to ask if someone is in hearing range.

    In at least some species, each pack/pod also has a unique chant that they broadcast to announce their arrival. We have no idea what it means. It might be merely a more complicated version of a name (although we have no idea if even individual names are arbitrary or mean something like "Dances with Turtles"), or some kind of boast ("Get out of our way or we'll take all your food"), or something akin to a military marching cadence count ("I don't know but I've been told/Orca ass is mighty cold/Sound off one-two/Sound off three-four").

    Whatever... this is certainly representation.

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    Several species of ape have been taught to "speak" in ASL (American Sign Language), including gorillas, chimpanzees, and most recently an orangutan. One even taught it to her own baby. They have amassed vocabularies of 1,000 words and they understand how to build sentences. This is "representation" -- not to mention "symbols."

    African Grey parrots have been taught rudimentary spoken language. The full scope of grammar and syntax is beyond them, but they can express ideas such as "round red key."
     
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  3. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Representation in that sense would be presenting in another form.
    Yes, I suppose so.

    But it still doesn't make sense.
    Take this sentence:
    "what sets human representation apart from that of all other species"

    No other species uses representation. It is uniquely human.

    This would make better sense:
    "Human symbolic representation sets us apart from all other species."

    I think it's just a sentence which needs improving.
    Not a big criticism.
    I do that all the time myself.
     
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I insist that words are representations. What else can they be???

    At least four other species of animals manipulate representations in speaking with their hands or voices, and several more species understand representations, as shown by their responses to words in human speech. I think the record for a herding dog is something like 200 commands.

    Words are symbols. Not all symbols are visual. Just ask a blind person.

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  7. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    I wonder how much they understand, and how much is learned response.
    Could they understand the difference between past present and future?
     
  8. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    The apes carry on quite astute conversations. They talk about feelings.

    When one saw a zebra for the first time, he said, "Look: a white tiger."

    Many animals have time sense; some birds are careful to retrieve their oldest cache of stored food first.

    But dogs have very poor time sense, so I doubt that verb tenses play any role in their communication.

    Contrary to popular belief, ASL is not merely a transcription of spoken English into signs. The grammar and syntax are considerably different. This is obvious once we realize that they can sign two words simultaneously, and/or in different locations relative to their body. So you'll have to ask a deaf person about tense. Then once you've mastered the language, go ask a gorilla.

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  9. Cyrus the Great Registered Senior Member

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    GREETINGS

    I have just asked my friends to answer my question. I have got all that he said but for the following.


    "You are referring to one single fact about metals (the fact that they have special properties). If you say while", it looks as if you are referring to two different facts. So you should leave out "while."



    Original sentence: Metals occupy a rather special position in the study of solids, sharing a variety of striking physical properties. that other solids such as sulfur lack.


    Could you tell me if I have correctly rephrased the bold part?

    While they have outstanding properties that other solids such as sulfur do not enjoy in common.

    Also, "in common" refers to the properties of metals, not other solids such as sulfur. So "in common" needs to go earlier in the sentence:

    They have outstanding properties in common that other solids such as sulfur do not enjoy.
     
  10. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    There is absolutely nothing wrong with this sentence. I don't understand what your friend is criticizing, but he is wrong. The only error in it was a spurious period after the word "properties"--an error in punctuation rather than in grammar.

    Again, this must be part of the same sentence, since the conjunction "while" makes it only a clause, not a complete sentence unto itself.

    This is not as good as the original sentence. The word "enjoy," in particular, is not appropriate. An English speaker will understand it, but it will make him laugh and it will immediately identify you as a non-native speaker. The verb "enjoy" relates to an emotion, and therefore can only be used when writing about humans or other animals.

    You can use it for institutions because they are comprised of humans, for example, "Canada enjoys one of the lowest crime rates in the world." This really means that the Canadian people enjoy it.

    You might even say, "the rain forests of Malaysia enjoy some of the heaviest rainfall on earth." This is a case of anthropomorphism, the attribution of human traits to the plants and animals in the rain forest. It's a little poetic and would probably not be found in a science book, but it might appear in a newspaper.

    But we do not anthropomorphize metals and the other chemical elements on the Periodic Table. Just say, "other elements such as sulphur do not have these properties."

    No. Once again, your friend is completely wrong. "While" is okay. We often use it as a synonym for "although."

    This is fine, but it was also fine the other way.

    Your friends are not very helpful. You should ask for advice from native speakers.
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,543
    Here's one for Fraggles.
    I often use the term "near Infinite" when describing something immeasurably big...like the Universe/spacetime.
    On another forum I was on, I was hauled over the coals for its use and informed something could not be "near infinite", it is either finite or Infinite.
    I kept up with using the terminology, after explaining to the few who so indignantly objected, that its use was much the same as similar to any metaphor, such as for example, "Her eyes shine like diamonds"
    What is your opinion and take on its usage?
     
  12. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    The nearly infinite universe is almost unique.
     
  13. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    CK, I would opine that 'nearly infinite' is more of an oxymoron rather than 'almost unique'.

    By preceding some words with the adverb "near" or "nearly", is it not much the same as using the word "not"...i.e., like 'near' dead/'nearly' dead or 'near' pregnant/'nearly' pregnant.
    I myself would consider the the phrases 'near' infinite or 'nearly' infinite to more accurately mean "finite".

    Fraggle Rocker, however, could probably provide a better or more accurate explanation/answer to the query.
     
  14. Cyrus the Great Registered Senior Member

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    185
    The Sun is a large object, having a diameter of nearly a million miles. [correct]

    The Sun is a large object, while having a diameter of nearly a million miles. [incorrect]

    Would anyone please tell me the reason why it is not correct?
     
  15. Cyrus the Great Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    185
    The Sun is a large object, having a diameter of nearly a million miles. [correct]
    The Sun is a large object, while having a diameter of nearly a million miles. [incorrect]
    I am wondering the reason for being considered correct or incorrect.

    Would you possibly explain why we cannot use while?

    I really do appreciate what you taught me.

    Nevertheless, I think the second one is just semantically incorrect, while grammatically correct, isn't it?

    Meanwhile, as we know one of the usage of while is to be at the same time, so what about the following? if these are correct, so why don't we use while?

    The Sun is a large object, while having a diameter of nearly a million miles.

    The sun is a large object and it is having a diameter of nearly a million miles.

    The sun is a large object and it has a diameter of nearly a million miles.
     
  16. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I agree. My reasoning is:
    • Everything is exactly the same distance from infinity as everything else. So nothing is nearer to infinity than anything else. Therefore the concept of "nearly infinite" is invalid.
    • On the other hand, the distance from uniqueness is measurable. For many things, there are zillions of other things that are identical to them. These things are not at all unique. But there are some things that have only a small number of things that are identical to them. These things are not unique because they are not one-of-a-kind, but I don't think it's unreasonable to call them "nearly unique." Even though there are a few others, you might go your whole life without ever seeing one.
    For example, the liger is the hybrid offspring of a male lion and a female tiger. They only occur in captivity and are not common, but there are several in existence.

    The tigon, on the other hand, is the offspring of a male tiger and a female lion. For reasons that are not completely understood, these hybrids are extremely rare. If you are lucky enough to see one, it would be reasonable to say that it is nearly unique.
     
  17. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    "While" is a conjunction that connects two clauses. Often it is used to indicate that two things are happening at the same time. "Emperor Nero played his fiddle while Rome burned." This tells us that Nero was not a very good emperor.

    But in other cases, it is used to identify a contradiction. In this usage it is almost a synonym for "although." "While this used car dealer has more than 500 automobiles on his lot, only three or four have the features we're looking for." This tells us that we're going to spend a lot of time looking for the car we want.

    Therefore, to say, "While having a diameter of a nearly a million miles, the Sun is a large object," does not make sense. There is no contradiction: any object with a diameter of 1.6 million kilometers is, indeed a large object.

    This is bad grammar. We very seldom put the verb "have" into the present progressive tense unless it is an idiom.
    This was a very difficult day at the office. I think I am having a nervous breakdown.
    I don't know what you plan on ordering in this restaurant, but I see that little Johnny is having dessert.
    The new dog food I bought has too many grains, and now my dog is having seizures a couple of times a week.​

    This is not bad, but it is awkward. When you say that an object has a diameter of nearly a million miles, the reader already knows that it is a large object. The sentence is redundant.

    You could say, "The sun is a large object with a diameter of nearly a million miles."
     
  18. Saint Valued Senior Member

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    4,752
    1. Can you send me your research proposal?
    2. Can you send your research proposal to me?

    Are both right?
     
  19. Cyrus the Great Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    185
    ...since life first appeared on earth.

    ...since first life appeared on earth.

    ...since life appeared on earth first.

    Would anyone please readily explain the difference between these?

    Or, could you possibly tell me how to distinguish where to put adverbs in such circumstances?

    Any help would be appreciated
     
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    Yes. Most of us would choose 1. because it's shorter. But in writing, especially formal writing, we'd more likely choose 2.
     
  21. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    While number one may be "acceptable" I find it interesting to note that different rules apply when I answer Saint's hypothetical question:

    We would always say "Yes, I can send my research proposal to you.", never "Yes, I can send my research proposal you." Why is that? Why is the "to" optional in the original case? Is it optional in formal writing?
     
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    You didn't put enough time into this. It's perfectly okay to say, "Yes, I can send you my proposal.

    When we leave out the "to," we are in effect putting the pronoun "you" into the dative case--a case which we are told that English does not have. A pronoun in the dative case must immediately follow the verb of which it is the object.
    Hand me my glasses.
    I'll make you a sandwich.
    Johnny sang us a song in school today.
    I gave the waiter a big tip for the good service.
    Your mom ordered you a new bathrobe; that one is falling apart.
    The boss printed the new secretary a list of the office policies; make sure she reads them.
    Stop telling me lies.​
     
  23. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, cry me a river.

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    Seriously though, thanks for the answer.
     

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