So "God" doesn't hate sinners, huh??...check this out!

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Flash, Jan 30, 2000.

  1. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Searcher,

    I guess you and I have a very different frame of reference regarding salvation. (Did you by any chance grow up in a strict, church-going "Christian" home?) To me, my relationship with god, including His offer of salvation, is about "love" - it's not about "kissing butt" as you apparently see it.

    When your husband who loves you offered himself to you in marriage (and vice-versa) and you accepted his offer and promised to love him only as a husband ('til death do you part) because you love him in return... do you consider yourself to be kissing his butt?

    Also, I am still curious about how you see this... Other than the absence of evil, what is it that you find limiting about living in right relationships through love?

    [This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 15, 2000).]
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Truestory--

    Just a quick comment, I hope. Well, okay. Nothing's "quick" with me.

    * "Believe me, salvation has nothing to do with going to church at all. Salvation also has nothing to do with kissing anyone's butt. It is about living eternally in mutually loving relationships in the absence of evil."

    Okay ... one of the issues the whole forum, much less you and I, or any specific topic, seems unable to agree upon is what is meant by certain things. For instance, I have, on a number of occasions, asserted that you, or other Christians, worship the name only. This assumption comes from the fact that certain perspectives only seem to work in regard to the perspective itself. "Absence of evil" happens to be one of those things.

    There cannot be an absence of evil, except perhaps an absence of what we regard as evil. Even when the entirety of creation is in direct harmony with God, there must necessarily be some sense of evil left in the universe, else harmony has nothing to distinguish it from nothing. That's one of the problems with ideas like Satan, and such ... that if you spin the logical line of any claim regarding the devil to its best possible end, you fine that the "logic" evaporates fairly early in the process. If the idea only applies under narrow conditions, exactly as one has stated it, it cannot be true and correct throughout. "Gravity makes things fall" is a fair statement from our earthbound perspective; I might liken it to evil, in this sense. But gravity does not "make things fall". Gravity is an attractive force. Once upon a time, when scientists understood that the same force that makes rocks fall to the ground is the same thing that's binding the universe, they started looking for its bright center. Of course, advances in technology and even in mathematical theory have allowed us to say that there is no central point toward which gravity attracts the universe.

    Whereas, to say that the devil is evil might be a fair statement from our mortal perspective, what does that speak of the rest of the universe? Is there a neutral force? Do we find the death of a child in an earthquake, flood, or other unfortunate disaster morally ambiguous? Do we see a neutrality? Do we see an evil? Good and evil must necessarily transcend the human condition; much of what we see as evil may, in the end, be good in God's eyes. After all, the plan is immutable, and the only outcome is preset. This creates a problem whereby all evil becomes good, as it is a process which leads us to the fruition of God's plan, but that borders also on various and sundry predestinies.

    I would agree that salvation has nothing to do with going to church. But vagaries like those pertaining to the basic ground rules of salvation--good and evil--imply a number of things. As a sum total of other topic discussions we've had, would it be fair to say that nobody alive knows the Plan? Or do some know the intimate intricacies of God better than others? And then what does that imply about whether God saves all humanity or just the elect?

    Do you see what I'm getting at? It's hard to say what one invests their faith in. Sure, you might call it Jesus, and that person over there might call it Jesus, but you're looking at a green Honda, and he's looking at a blue Cadillac. You both believe in Jesus, sure, but that means the Caddy fans are going to hell, as such, even though they believe in Jesus.

    And when we fix that paradox, a new one will most definitely pop up. I agree that it's largely the mystery of God, but there is an aspect of ass-kissing that goes with faith. We all learn it, perhaps because we are afraid to teach our children that some things are simply right. I mean, it does come down to that choice: If I jump you in a parking lot, you have a choice to let me have my way with you, or get killed. Hey, it's your choice. Or, at least, that's how the idea of salvation reads because the multitude of individual Christians all have their own interpretations, all of which are right, none of which agree, other than the fact that yes, Jesus does have four wheels and bucket seats. (Would Jesus have a vanity plate? "GODSKID"? "MACKDDY"? But, I digress

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    So back to not being able to agree on what things mean ... those are the issues that make it really tough for non-Christians to come to faith. Whereas the atheists, for mere example, might agree that 2+2=4, the apparent truth in Christianity is that as long as one believes in the number four, any mathematical formula should equal it.

    You and I might be able to agree that certain representations of Christianity definitely are not Christian. Mostly, when I accuse you of using that out in an argument, I agree with you. But other people whose ideas are represented by different words don't get that grace. A society of free-willed individuals acting on consciences inspired by a common faith upon which none of the faithful can agree has proven itself quick to the draw, and preferring to ask questions not sooner, not later, but never. So, while you and I might agree that "God Hates Fags" is not necessarily "Christian", we must also admit that A) there is Biblical support that requires less interpretation than promises of Christ's return that God doesn't like homosexuality, and B) that it might not matter whether or not they consider their actions truly motivated by Christ. In the Bible, is there not a Christ for all seasons? I mean, if we don't like the idea of a spiteful, homophobic Jesus, can not the less educated hold the story of Jesus driving the sinful moneylenders from the temple? Say what we will about its actual meaning ... there's a bunch of anti-fag Christians out there spreading a Gospel of hate. Forgive the lowly pagans if they simply say, "It's more Christian nonsense," but when you get down to it, who's gonna win the tangible fight? Those with guns or those without? Those with destructive impulses, or those who would die for God?

    The kingdom of God is well and fine, but absolutely nothing is definite about it. We know that certain people will have to answer to God about just what the hell they thought they were saying on His behalf ... but which people will that be?

    And when you get down to it, it means you're playing a rough game with rigid rules. Nobody knows how big the field is, what the ball looks like, or how many minutes you get in the box when you break the rules. Hell, we don't know what the rules are. And, as regards kissing butt, it means the best thing we can do is pick the rosiest-smelling and just pucker up.

    Ummm ... damn. I'm looking through this post and I'm left with two things to say. One, it's all there. Two ... well, it's all there but it's might take some sorting out. It all makes sense to me, but if you'll allow me a jab below the belt ... interpreting the vagaries seems to be your speciality.

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    Can I offer a clue? It all has to do with the idea that "absence of evil" was the perfect spin toward an abstract regard for ass-kissing. If that sentence makes sense, then I'm confident that the rest of this can be regarded as less than psychotic.

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  5. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    tiassa,

    Very interesting. Unfortunately, I have an appointment to get to so I'll have to try to sort it all out later. I can't guarantee that I'll be successful, and I can almost guarantee that it will not be to your satisfaction, however, I can guarantee that I will try.

    See ya later!
     
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  7. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    TS,

    Not exactly. My mother did, though - her mother was a holiness-type, god-fearing, stern, unloving sort of person, and my mother knew little love in her life. My grandmother's mother was far worse than she was. One of my mother's sisters was the same way, and my own mother converted back to her childhood religion in 1980.

    For the first 12 years of my life, I rarely stepped foot in any church, but I got to see first-hand the horrifying results of children who were raised by such hate-mongerers, and the kinds of mental and physical abuse they heaped on their own children.

    When I was about 12 years old, my mother decided that Mormonism was the "one true religion", and like it or not, I was pretty well indoctrinated with their peculiar brand of Christianity (which was far preferrable to what my mother suffered as a child). That lasted until I was about 16 or 17. I've visited other Christian churches as an adult, including Baptist, Pentacostal, and non-denominational churches, but found them all to be lacking in some way. The one thing they all seem to have in common is the butt-kissing. "Do it or go to hell" seems to be the common message.

    No, he didn't say to me, "Marry me and spend the rest of your life obeying my every command and worshipping the ground I walk on or die a violent and painful death". I would have preferred a violent and painful death to life with someone who wanted to use me in this way.

    It's not limiting to live in right relationships through love, but I sense there's more to it than meets the eye when one is being threatened with burning in hell for all of eternity as the only alternative.

    Put it this way: How would you feel if your mom offered you a wonderful dessert following dinner, say cheesecake or chocolate cream pie, but warned you that if you refuse it, she'll slash your throat? Maybe you would accept the dessert, but how much would you enjoy it? Would you really feel as if you had a "choice"? And how would you feel about mom after that? Is any of this sinking in at all?

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  8. Flash Registered Senior Member

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  9. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

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    Lori, truestory,

    Read this:
    "I love Jesus! Jesus is my best friend. I find true comfort in his name, and he guides my every waking moment. Jesus gives my life meaning, and I'll die for his cause if I had to. God bless you all, I'm now converted! Praise be to the Lord!!!"

    And now read this:
    "Yeah, right..."

    I can do this. I have pride. I have my beliefs. In fact, I severely dislike Christianity. Yet, I was able to type the above without any problems. Why? Because it doesn't mean jack! Pride or no pride, I just wrote you a paragraph of bullshit, and I was under no illusion that I believed a word of it.

    Now what, again, is the fundamental reason why the Devil can't bullshit you in exactly that way, using exactly those words? How would Satan be undermining his cause if he uttered the above in the process of deliberately trying to lead astray yet another of God's lambs? If I was a wolf, I'd don sheep's clothing in a second if I thought it would help me woo some sheep away into the woods. Heck, I'd even pretend to be the pastor if it helped!

    And you really are both thinking in terms of black-and-white. Why is it that the Devil can't be capable of good acts? Is it true that a serial murderer, being thoroughly evil, is nevertheless incapable of any good behavior? Well, the Devil has done some heavy crime too, but why does it follow that now the Devil is absolutely, 100%, incapable of any good? Especially if doing just a little good will enable him to do that much more evil? If I was the Devil, I'd concern myself more with net return than with initial investment costs. It would be very smart and devious of me.

    And truestory,
    What we are all trying to tell you is that neither heaven nor hell would actually be better than what we have right now. Right now we have more choice than we would have either in heaven or in hell. So by going in either direction, we loose freedom. That freedom meaning, being capable of both committing sin and enjoying love at the same time. Losing that freedom turns both heaven and hell into eternal prison sentences. That's what makes for a "dilemma". Having a choice between eternal hell, heaven, or life, I (and a few others on this board) would choose life. I.e., we'd rather opt for the "none of the above" option when it comes to your "choice".

    And stop talking of sinless existence as merely lacking evil. Not all sin is so terrible. Lust sure feels good. Greed can be quite rewarding. Gluttony has its place in the list of life's pleasures. And it sure feels good to ridicule both God and the Devil, with neither of them being able to touch you. All that freedom would be lost upon entering your version of heaven.

    And therefore inhabitants of your heaven are indeed no different from "robots". They may have made a choice that brought them there, rather than being just put there -- but once they are there, the end result is the same! Once you get into heaven, you are indistinguishable from someone who has <u>always</u> been there. So the question persists: why bother with this mortal life business in the first place?

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  10. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Flash,

    Despite the fact that the statement about Jesus' teachings is inaccurate (that is one truth which I sought for myself, having heard that argument before) it was a very good site, indeed. Thanks! I have bookmarked it.
     
  11. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Boris,

    There have been questions posed here by a number of people which will take some time to address. First, I just want to take a couple of minutes to point out some fundamental differences between you and the devil:

    The devil is pure evil. Boris is not.

    The devil knows the truth about Jesus Christ. Boris does not.

    The devil cannot bring himself to say that Jesus is God in the flesh because that would be telling the truth about Jesus, something that the devil cannot do. Boris can say anything he wants about Jesus (or the devil) because Boris doesn't have a clue (about the true nature of Jesus or the devil).

    I'll get back to your questions later.
     
  12. Ivan Kruk Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    56
    Truestory,

    O.K. you argument that some one else would like to hear my understanding of "universal salvation" is enough to explain it in more detail way. I said that, because you seem to me like a person living on a desert, who receive a phone calls from others from seaside or from jungle. They describe to you their environment, but your answer is always the same: “you are blind, there is nothing else the desert.

    The term "universal salvation" means nothing, the good enough would be for example “Chachanaga” as well. (Small reflection: We are too much connected with words, definitions, which has different meaning for each man due to his background, childhood, experience and etc. (the same Tiassa said). The definitions can be only treated as some kind of guideposts, which show the direction of where we can find our own individual understanding of something.) I put to my post first words that appeared in my mind. So the only valid is my understanding of such a thing named "universal salvation".
    You said that you believe in “living eternally in mutually loving relationships in the absence of evil”. I also believe that such state is possible, but our approaches to the methods of reaching that state are quite different. Here is my one.
    Generally speaking every man has similar motives of his activities to the others. We would like to live with love and/or happiness and/or satisfaction but under the condition that these feelings are true (naturally come from our nature). Unhappily we are not successful with reaching of such live. There is always something against our aspiration –in most common cases –the other man. But from his point of view we are the obstacles for his happiness. Tell me who has a right? I think that we can talk only about the balanced case and there are only two possibilities: the other man is the real obstacle for our happiness and vice versa or every our objectives to him are just an illusion. By me it’s just an illusion – we haven’t any obstacles outside ourselves to reach love and/or happiness and/or satisfaction. The only barrier exists in our minds (do you remember III part of “The wall” of Pink Floyd) and the only way to destroy that barrier is to recognize it’s nature – in other words – to recognize our true motives, to see who we are exactly, to get the answer for some question like: what the hell I’m doing here, what for I’m living here and similar.
    This is good question: How to recognize my true nature? I think that the number of possible methods is equal to the number of people – simply say: every effective method is good enough. But there is some limitations: due to our ego smartness (which is by me that barrier) that method should test ego during overcoming our weakness and we have to be watchful with our (ego) reactions. It’s very hard to perform, so it’s possible only when we have established strong and stabile goal for our efforts (that why we need the answers for a/m questions). As I said, in real live it can be every possible method like: making a tea, the marriage, a company managing and similar which involve whole our nature. Sometimes we need a help from humans experience with method of softening ourselves (yoga, zen, pray, meditation), to see ourselves in brighten light. And that’s all. Do you see anything about God or religion in my post – no there is no any such a thing –we don’t need them for salvation. Everything is still in our hands. That what I mean by “universal salvation".

    Ivan

    <HR>

    The Ravens Are Not What They Seem


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    [This message has been edited by Ivan Kruk (edited February 16, 2000).]
     
  13. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    771
    TS,
    How can you say this? How is it that many others believe this to be true except you?

    Also, you stated to Boris that the devil cannot tell the truth. You believe that the bible is truth, yes? That the word of God is truth. Well, if Satan is not capable of doing such how can he quote scripture? He quoted scripture when Jesus was being tempted in the wilderness...so how can he even do that being that "God's word" is truth?
     
  14. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    TS,
    Where is heaven?
    Where is Hell?
    Where is God?
    Where is Satan?

    I'm hoping that your answers will prove my point.
    ...

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  15. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

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    Truestory~

    Hmm, I do see your point, and I think I'm just phrasing things poorly. Urg, why won't this darn flu leave me!!??

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    I think Satan could say anything he durn well pleases, whether it be truth or untruth. I think there would be many, many ways for him to appear to say words that weren't being said, or to also say other words that wouldn't be heard.

    For example, the way to pass the test is to say "Jesus is God in the flesh", right? What if Satan says "Jesus is (not)God in the flesh", but the word "not" is somehow inaudible to the questioner? The questioner would hear the correct answer, even though Satan may have uttered all kinds of other words in between, perhaps in voice too high to be heard by human ears?? Isn't that at least possible? There are all kinds of ways to twist words around:

    Let me show an example I lifted from a book. The heroine was told "Do not go downstairs". So she could not go down the flight of stairs, but she desperately needed to get to the bottom floor. So, in her mind, she took that same sentance, and decided it might have been "do not go down stairs" (notice the space between "down" and "stairs") - meaning she could go to the lower level, so long as she did not use stairs to accomplish that. So she jumped out the window into a nice soft dumpster, and saved the day. (Okay, a nice soft dumpster is pretty questionable, but it's fiction, and I think you see my point.)

    I imagine if Satan is as he's made out to be, he would be wonderfully adept at puns and tricks of words. Would he have to say it in English? Maybe in some language the sentance could be uttered in a way that it could be true or untrue, depending on the translation of a single word. That sort of thing. I imagine he would be able to think up tricks that no mere human would be able to penetrate. 'Course, I don't really believe in him - as you pointed out, I definitely don't know this character.

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  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Truestory--

    * "The devil cannot bring himself to say that Jesus is God in the flesh because that would be telling the truth about Jesus, something that the devil cannot do."

    Now, given that I've quoted a book by Jeffrey Russell Burton from Hell to breakfast by now, might I skip the textual citation? Merely, I wanted to counter with the idea that the Devil has, through various literary and Christian theological traditions, lamented the truth of Christ openly. Burton likened it to throwing someone into your pool with the warning, "Just be careful not to get wet."

    Which sounds somewhat like my own assertion, that the Devil cannot reconcile its place in the Divine Knowledge because the Devil was created as such. The Devil, restored to God's graces, is no longer the Devil. If the Devil cannot admit the "truth" about Jesus, it is because God made the Devil to be so. Else there is a corner of this universe where humanity can encounter the Devil, and in which God is not the authority.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  17. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    You people crack me up. Talk about getting lost in detail. You guys couldn't see a forest if you were Smokey the Bear. It's all about intentions ok? The whole FAITH is about intentions, not works, and not words. Satan can not lead people to Jesus, because his intent is the opposite. To do that he would be his own enemy and opponent?????

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  18. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

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    Lori~

    But the point is that he wouldn't ACTUALLY be leading people towards Jesus. He would be pretending to do so to gain trust, and then the ball drops. See what I mean? It might appear that he was speaking the whole truth, but that one little bit of apparent truth would be in order to perpetuate a lie...

    Perhaps I can make an analogy to make my (clumsy) point a little more clear. Let's say the road to heaven is yellow, the road to hell is red. Satan, of course, wants you to walk the red road, God wants you on the yellow road. So Satan, clever guy that he is, grabs a bucket of paint, and paints the red road yellow, all the way to the horizon. He puts on a pretty white gown and halo, and shows you the yellow-appearing road. You see the yellow road, and you KNOW that the road to heaven is yellow, you've heard all about it, and the test to tell what road leads to heaven is by it's color. You ask this friendly, loving, warm guy who showed you the road if it's really the road to heaven. He says "yup, it sure is, see, it's yellow!" So you follow the yellow road before you.

    THAT's the kind of deception I'm talking about. Am I making any sense at all, or did all this cold medicine go to my poor stuffy head?

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  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Mooncat--

    As far as the yellow road is considered ... is that your house that landed on The Metatron?

    By the beating of the Tin Man's heart, is that a flock of monkeys, having flown from Satan's ass, coming to sweep us away?

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    Okay ... I'll stop with the goofy stuff for now. I liked the analogy a lot, but it did make me wonder what would happen if Toto wet on the Devil's leg.

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  20. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

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    LOL, I knew making the road yellow would come back and bite me in the butt sooner or later. Can I have the seat of my pants back now, Tiassa?

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  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    MC--

    I'm tempted to make a Coppertone pun ....

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    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    The whole business with the fossilized dinosaur eggs was a joke the paleontologists haven't seen yet. (Good Omens, Gaiman & Pratchett)
     
  22. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    Good morning everyone! Just a little side track here - I wanted to announce that as of 1:23 a.m. yesterday morning (February 18), I am now officially the grandmother of a healthy, 7 lb, 8 oz, 18" long baby girl named Valerie Marie.

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    And now back to our regularly scheduled debate...

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  23. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    Searcher,
    congrats' granny!
    I wish you all good health and happiness.

    ...

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    "The crows are already stoned", he said.
    With a look of dispassion on his sad face.
     

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