So "God" doesn't hate sinners, huh??...check this out!

TS,
You are asking me to come up with documented sources..off the top of my head right now..I cannot provide such... I do know that Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven according to the bible..but, I guess that is neither here nor there... I know what I have been taught and that is what I'm standing on.

 

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Truestory~

Sorry to butt in, but I wanted to make a little point...

This is regarding the comment that your experiences with God might have been actually experiences with "Satan". You made a list of things that had happened and asked if those things could be the works of the devil.

I'm not trying to say that they are, but I wanted to point something out, for your pondering enjoyment:

The BEST lie is 99% truth.

What if (and, again, I'm not saying this IS the case, I'm just saying IF) these acts WERE acts of the "Devil" and he was just trying to get you on his side/convince you he was one of the good guys?

Do you think that's possible? How would you know FOR SURE these weren't a batch of outrageous tricks designed to draw you away from the truth? Surely a very powerful being, even an evil one, could fake love and compassion (heck, look at any horny 15 year old boy, they fake love great!), don't you think?

I'm curious to see what you think. I'm not trying to pick a fight, by the way, hope that came accross well.

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MoonCat,

Hope all is going well for you and your family... Nice to see you here...

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With respect to your questions:

First, let me say that I am well aware of the potential power of the deceptive one... I had a very real experience with the deceptive one when it came to me in the form of my loving husband. THAT was an outrageous trick designed to draw me away from the truth. I thank God for giving me the ability to see it for what it was and for delivering me from the potential evil outcome of that situation also.

As far as my other experiences described, don't get me wrong, it's not that I believe that there was no "evil" force at work in any of these experiences. To the contrary, that is what caused the need for positive intervention in the first place. There were two separate and distinct forces at work in all of the situations described. I explained the "good" force above... the one that delivered family members from evil... Here, I will explain the "evil" force which was at work:

It was evil at work which caused the teenagers to steal the car... Without going into detail concerning the circumstances, it was evil at work which caused the emotional torture of a family member... It was evil at work which caused the husband to want to stab his wife... It was evil at work which caused someone to drive under the influence and cause a fatal crash... It was evil at work which caused a man to attempt to kidnap my daughter... It is evil at work which causes our need for personal salvation.

Consider for yourself what you truly know about the nature of and the difference between that which is evil and that which is good and apply it to the situations which I have described.

If one considers your hypothesis, in order to accept it, one would have to deny the positive intervention and good outcome of the experiences and look upon those good things as evil... Or one would have to believe that evil has the potential to do good (to have a good side)... One would also have to conclude that the deliverance "from" evil in these situations equated to evil (quite a contradiction). In order to come to such a conclusion, one would also need to rationalize that there was no power at work except that of evil and, that good and evil are actually the same.

If one were somehow actually able to bring themself to do that, then that would be the ultimate deception. This type of deception is not uncommon, however. This type of deception (turning good into evil and vice-versa) is very much at work in this present world. This is the ultimate deception which paralyzes and blinds people from moving forward and seeing the truth.

 

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Flash,

Herein lies the deception:

(Despite the fact that you changed "love" to "heaven") If you sought the truth for yourself, rather than listening to this spirit, then you would learn for yourself that Jesus taught more about love and you would "know" that what you are being taught is a lie (a deception).

Try it...

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[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 14, 2000).]

 

True'-

I see your point, and yet...

I'm not saying that evil can do good, or has a good side, per se, I'm saying that evil could appear to do good in order to perpetrate greater evil.

Let me make a bigger example - let me turn your experiences into an example of what I'm trying to say. (no offence, please, I'm not trying to insult you!

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)

Let's imagine that Satan knows you have the propensity to do great good works in your life, and of course wants to prevent that. He knows that you believe in God. So he stages a confrontation between "demons" and brings a false vision of God to you, in order to decieve you. He also goes ahead & rescues your child (after placing her in harms way deliberately in order to 'rescue' her), and stages the confrontation between the husband & wife (the knife thing); all designed to fool you into thinking that God has been acting, when in reality, it's not.

The reason he's fooling you (theoretically, of course) is because he wants you to be lulled into a false sense of security - he wants you to THINK you can tell the difference between good & evil, when all along you've just been reacting to "plays" he set up and formulated solely to decieve you. So the evil you percieve is genuinely evil, but the good you percieve is a sham, a fakery, a trick, an illusion designed solely to guide you away from truth.

Eventually, you unintentionally spread falsehoods - things you genuinely believe were God's actions, with a heart full of love, and meaning no harm whatsoever, you play right into the devil's hands.

God has to stick to the rules (be good, 100%), whereas Satan doesn't - he can twist ANYTHING around, right? So, if I did believe in God & Satan, I personally would never trust anything, because I wouldn't know when it's just the Lord of Lies fabricating an illusion. Do you see what I'm trying (poorly) to say?

I realise this probably is sounding like some kind of attack, it's not, REALLY!! I don't want to make you mad at me, so if I've insulted you, I'm sorry!

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Moon,

Don't be afraid to insult, you're not. That's a totally valid question, especially in relation to all of the warnings that we give regarding the very same thing. One, God doesn't usually "show" Himself like demons do. Two, if an angel, spirit, alien, goddess, fairie, whatever, does appear to you or try to influence you, there is a very simple solution. God says to test a spirit. If an angel says that Jesus is God in the flesh, then it is an angel of the Lord God. If an angel denies that Jesus is God in the flesh, then it would definately be of the "fallen" variety. Easy huh?

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"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

 

Lori~

But couldn't a fallen angel lie?

 

MoonCat... exactly!!! Fallen angels DO LIE... That is why they deny that Jesus is God in the flesh... They never say "yes" becuase that would be the truth and they do not speak the truth.

 

MoonCat,

What is the falsehood that you think the Devil would want one to spread?

Who or what is it that causes one to distrust and to be confused? Such IS the work of the devil, MoonCat. If I did not "trust" what I was being told and did not "act" because I was paralyzed by confusion (or whatever), then the devil would have had its way in all of the experiences described and there would have been no "deliverance" from evil.

 

Flash,

Thanks for being straight up with me, I just want to touch on one thing before we end this. Its something Lori said about you almost praying at one stage and that your AOL's didn't like the idea (or something to that effect). Flash if these beings are here to enlighten you and if they are telling you things like lets say... All great spirtual leaders were placed here by them to guide mankind and steer us in the path of enlightenment. Well how come or how is it that they all seem to have the same problem with Jesus? I mean not your experrience only but others also. It seems they are saying believe whatever you want to believe but don't believe in Jesus???? Why such a big problem with Him???? Perhaps you should ask them some of the hard questions you ask us? Anyway just a thought.

PS If you find your having trouble contacting them could you please let me know.

Thanks

Tony H2o


Mooncat,

You basically asked.. Can't an evil spirit pretend to be good to cause a larger lie?

Answer = Yes. However that being will as I have said before never stand and worship or praise the mighty King of Kings. This is the test of that spirit, if it comes from the Lord it will glorify the name of Jesus. If not from the Lord it will flee from the presence of praise and worship and will not confess His name as its Lord.

Take care.

Tony H2o

Truestory,

Thanks for your thoughts, my dad's doing well. Keep fighting the good fight sister.
I will be back later in the week.

God bless you.

Tony H2o


Lori,

Thanks for the kind words. Its good that He can use me to answer prayer.

Tony H2o


[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited February 16, 2000).]

 

Flash--

Can I take a whack at this translation for you? I think I've heard it before from Exodus, International, inc.

Essentially, no, one cannot continue to practice homosexual acts and still receive the bounties of heaven. The logic being that any homosexual who truly had Jesus would stop their sinful ways, and that any homosexual who doesn't stop those ways has not truly attained Jesus.

It's convenient that way, eh?

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Oh ... or have you reached that one already?... I might have missed if we're looking for the six-mile vagaries that throws in the path.

Of course, if Tab's right about the naked guy following Jesus ... maybe the reason nobody wants to talk about Jesus being married is that he was a bisexual art student living and preaching from a sham marriage. If ... if, if, if.

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thanx,
Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited February 14, 2000).]

 

Tony, truestory,

That would be if the "fallen angels" were <u>incapable</u> of speaking the truth. However, even fallen humans can speak the truth -- and they will, especially when they want to deceive you. Especially since you are testing them (and they know you are), they could speak the truth to pass your test, and then lie their backside off. In fact, your "test" makes it practically too easy to lie to you!

If I wanted to deceive you, I would not only appear as an angel, but claim that Jesus is my Lord and that I am his messenger sent straight to you to deliver the following important communique. Once such an introduction has been uttered, I can now proceed to put anything I please into your gullible receptive mind.

Christians a long time ago had mastered the art of doublespeak (or "mental reservation", as they call it.) This is when you say something, all the while crossing your fingers behind your back, essentially saying to yourself something like "well, actually I'm being cynical or sarcastic", or maybe "I'm actually being allegorical". This way, you can lie and misrepresent at will, all the while being comfortable in knowledge that Jesus knows your 'true intentions'. If the lowly humans can do this sort of thing, why do you suppose superior angels couldn't? In fact, were I the Devil (a mere suggestion, now!

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), I would take a special pleasure in claiming Jesus to be my Lord in front of you, knowing full well how offensive such a lie must be to God.

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I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited February 14, 2000).]

 

truestory,

All the benefits of being "saved" (other than going to heaven, since we are only concerned here with benefits that apply during your lifetime.)

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I am; therefore I think.

 

Boris,

This was actually my quote (not Tony's) and vice-versa...

Anyway, they cannot EVER bring themselves to speak this truth about Jesus Christ - ever. It's not in their nature to speak this truth. That is what makes the test so easy.

The furthest they will go is to call Jesus Christ a great man and a great teacher. God gave us the simple "test of flesh" for a reason... It's a dead giveaway... Thank God!!!

 

truestory,

That doesn't sound even remotely ridiculous to you? I mean sure, that makes the test exceedingly easy -- but that is precisely what's so ridiculous about it! Though I suppose it's an "easy" enough "that'll shut them up" rebuttal for some "messiah" to concoct when the acolytes are pestering him with pointed questions.

Try and look at it from the perspective of somebody who hasn't bought into Christianity hook, line, and sinker:

The Devil is after all but a fallen angel. He was supposed to have had a disagreement with God, and got kicked out of heaven. (ugh, me rephrasing the Bible...) But that doesn't mean the devil lost his free will, or his ability to speak the truth! (or does the Bible say that somewhere?) Just because the Devil wanted to be God, doesn't mean the Devil can't speak the truth about God (or at least what God considers to be the truth)! I mean, putting the Bible (and direct quotes from "Jesus") aside for a minute, just how plausible does your own statement sound to you?

And what's this talk about "their nature"? Do "they" have free will, or don't they?

It's not in "my nature" to be religious. However, if I had ulterior motives, I'd have no problem portraying the most pious Christian you've ever met! And I'm just a mere human. You mean that the Devil, being an angel, is inferior in his capabilities even to me???

Don't say it's so just because the Bible says it's so! My argument actually tries to make the point that this particular claim of the Bible is plain horrendously ridiculous. Which would go to illustrate just how low some people are willing to stoop in order to swallow their doctrine of choice.

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I am; therefore I think.

 

Boris,

This might sound ridiculously simple to you... however, this is the state of the eternal world which we discussed previously. One either dwells with good or with evil. Once we exercise our free-will and choose our eternal destiny, that is our eternal condition. There is no turning back and, yes, this is addressed in the Bible.

This test of spirits is similar to a physical litmus test... simple, but very telling.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited February 14, 2000).]

 

Huh??

So you are saying that angels don't have free will?! Then how in heaven did Satan rebel in the first place?!

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I am; therefore I think.

 

Boris,

The spiritual world existed prior to the physical world. Previously, souls in the spiritual world had total free-will as we now know it here on earth. At some point, certain spirits turned against their most loving God and chose to dwell in an evil (or sinful) state. Since God, in His goodness, cannot dwell with evil, the spirits which used their free-will to choose evil were cast out of (or down from) God's sin-free kingdom of heaven. An eternal home was made for them where they could continue to dwell in the evil state which they chose, but separated from God. The eternal home for those spirits who were cast down from heaven because they chose evil is commonly known as hell. (Thus the term "fallen angels"). Satan, for all intents and purposes, is the god of hell (the god of evil).

Now, rather than being "born" into heaven, it is in this physical world where souls choose their eternal destiny. It is here where we gain knowledge of what is good and what is bad and it is here, in this temporary physical world, where souls make their free-will choice concerning their eternal destiny.

 

TS,

I didn't change the word TS. What I said was I didn't have a documented source that I would be able to provide to you proving my belief. I also said that I am standing on what I have been taught. The one thing I do KNOW is that Jesus taught more about hell than heaven...which I said was neither here nor there...
So you are saying if I quit listening to the Spirit of Truth then I'd find truth????
What if I suggested that you quit listening to God..and seek TRUTH for yourself that you will find it?? How would you feel if I actually said that????? Well then...now you know how I feel.

 

Tony,
The reason being is due to deception...which causes damage. They were only looking out for me..that is all. Theirs is not one of hate toward Jesus...has nothing to do with how they even feel about him...but, rather they did not want me to fall into deception.