Emergence of meaning from written language

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by Magical Realist, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    If written language hadn't been invented yet, and someone told you that a play like Hamlet will one day be totally constructed from the sequential arrangements and spacings of just 26 letters and some punctuation marks, would you believe them? I'd find it difficult. Furthermore, not only will that play be created out of those signs, but will not even depend for its existence on those exact signs being used. See for instance Hamlet translated to French, or the cliff notes version of Hamlet. I think this is an example of the emergent property of meaning in language. The same story can be told but with totally different words. The story is constructed from the words, yet does depend on those exact words being used. Isn't language amazing?
     
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  3. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Hmmm, it makes me wonder how far we would have progressed in our verbal and comprehension ability, without the written language. Would we have even understood Hamlet?,
     
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  5. arauca Banned Banned

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    Before there were written story, there was poetry and story passed down from generation to generation . es an example the written torah and the verbal torah .
     
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  7. KitemanSA Registered Senior Member

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    I read somewhere that the ability to conceive of a symbolic representation of language (writing) is a relatively recent (5 to 7 thousand years ago) mutation and may not yet be universal in the human race. I misplaced my copy of the article so no longer recall the theorist's name. Anyone?
     
  8. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Without words, without writing and without books there would be no history, there could be no concept of humanity.
    Hermann Hesse
    Swiss (German-born) author (1877 - 1962)
     
  9. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I'm hardly a biblical scholar, but a quick internet search indicates that the Torah was compiled between 700 and 600BCE, during the Jewish people's exile in the Babylonian empire. (Yes, I'm the guy who refuses to write "god" with a capital G. But "Torah" and "Bible" are titles of books and in English writing we always capitalize titles of books, songs, paintings, etc.)

    We have undeniable evidence that the technology of written language was invented between 4000 and 3000BCE, and other tantalizing bits of evidence might push that back another 2000 years. Remember that writing evolved from accounting symbols, as civilization grew so large that time-delayed transactions among multiple parties who did not all know each other personally made it impossible to do business with a good memory and a handshake. Writing was invented by merchants, not scholars or priests.

    The writing of the Torah occurred quite a long time after the invention of writing. Surely many of the stories that comprise it were handed down from previous generations (and probably also in writing), but much of it was more-or-less contemporary accounts, and the Torah itself is clearly a written artifact, not an oral legend.

    BTW: You mean ". . . . the written Torah and the oral Torah." All language is "verbal" by definition. The word "verbal" means, literally, "expressed in words."

    The human brain has a speech center. This is why other species of mammals and birds, even the most intelligent, can master only a tiny bit of human language. Dogs can understand as many as 200 words, and parrots can build three-word phrases. Gorillas and chimpanzees can learn to communicate in American Sign Language, with (so far) a vocabulary of about 1,000 words.

    However, I have never seen a biologist claim to have identified a "writing center." Although reading is something we do quite a bit faster than speech, writing is much slower, except for a few highly talented people who can write in shorthand or use a court reporter's machine. For the rest of us, writing is such a slow process that it's not unreasonable to assume that it does not use a specialized brain center.

    Again, bear in mind that the use of symbols developed slowly. Written language did not burst on the scene suddenly. Hash marks for numbers, pictograms for directional markers, signs for other concepts were developed over the ages, as needed. It was quite a while before a complete system of symbols was elaborated that could be used to transcribe every word in a language--these were now logograms (representation of words) rather than pictograms (representation of ideas). Phonetic writing systems arose much later. The Chinese still don't use one, and the Japanese use a hybrid combination of Chinese logograms with a phonetic syllabary.

    As civilization and science allow us to live longer, the study of Alzheimer's disease (IIRC, now one of the top five causes of death in America's rapidly aging population) has revealed some interesting information about written language. Reading and writing is a skill that is overlearned. It's one of the very last abilities that people lose as they sink into dementia. People who have strokes and lose the ability to speak can still write.

    If there's a beloved elder in your family who has trouble remembering things, rather than telling him something orally, write it down and hand him the note. Once he's read your note he will remember the information much longer than if you say it out loud. Not to mention, he still has the note so he can re-read it whenever he needs to.

    One lady was crestfallen because when she walked into her mother's room she asked, "Who are you?" She said, "Mom, I'm your daughter, Susan!"

    Mom said, "You're not my daughter. Susan is young and beautiful."

    So she found an old photo of herself and attached the caption, "This is your daughter Susan at age 25," and then took a new photo with the caption, "This is your daughter Susan at age 55." She handed the photos to her mother, who looked at them for a long time and kept re-reading the captions. The she smiled and said, "Susan, you're here! You're as beautiful as ever!" From that day on, she never had a problem recognizing her daughter.

    The technology of written language kept this family together!
     
  10. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The main difference between written and spoken language is written allows you more time to prepare your ideas, because the mechanical process is slower. Spoken language is faster and therefore may not be as well planned. This allows more people to communicate effectively; allows the time to plan what you will write. Not everyone can speak off the cuff, effectively, but given time can formulate their ideas in writing.

    The second difference is spoken language can make use of inflections in the voice or even body language. I could write, X was the greatest author. On the other hand, I could say the same thing, while laughing under my breath, to mean the opposite. Writing helps to clarify the spoken, because the written text will not have the stage directions that might be used by verbal. Although plays will add these stage directions so it appears more like verbal communication instead of writing.

    A good con artist will read body language and could change his sales pitch to suit the audience. With written language, it is not as adaptive in real time to different audiences. This allows for consistent meaning.

    Writing also allows for verification. The used car salesman might you verbal promises, but may not want to put them into writing, since spoken language is easier to deny than written language.

    I would guess writing was invented by necessity, for clarity, consistency and verification. Civilization started to get complicated due to the number of people and needed a way to create consistency away from fuzzy.

    As odd as this may sound commerce may have necessitated writing and math, since both allow a way for accurate and verifiable records of products, people and services.
     
  11. Rita Registered Member

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    And so we get different religions. I am quite sure the Greek story of Pandora's Box, is the same as the Hebrew story of Adam and Eve and that both stories come from the Sumerian story of the creation of man. The original story was written with a stick pressed in clay, in the written language we call cuneiform.

    No speculation of what gifts the gods will give us are believable until there is some evidence that what we imagine can be manifest. Science fiction is imagination that has a little truth. Such as sending a rocket to the moon was imagined after the Germans developed missiles for warfare. Marks on a clay tablet lead us to think what might be achieved with those marks.
     
  12. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Tell that to the kids who sit there "texting" furiously all day! Their language looks like something a really smart elephant could master.

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    Yes. As I've often noted, it's almost impossible to express sarcasm in writing, because it is all about the non-verbal components of oral language.

    This is why we had to invent emoticons like

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    now that the internet has taken written language to a whole new level. And there are even dialects of emoticons: Asians prefer to "spell" it as ^_^.

    Con artists learn to recognize "tells." I don't remember the precise numbers, but women have about 50% more than men (something like 75 vs. 50), so con men find women easier to read and easier to con.

    Psychologists read them too. For example, if a man and a woman are sitting next to each other on a bench with their legs crossed, so that the feet of the crossed legs are pointing at each other, this supposedly means that they have romantic aspirations, since they are presenting their genitalia to each other. Crossed the opposite way, means there is no interest. If one points one way and the other in the opposite direction, somebody's going home disappointed.

    Actors and theatrical directors make constant use of these things. In live theater they exaggerate body language so the people in the back rows can see it. In a movie it's more likely to be closer to a natural movement, but still a talented actor can make a posture or a gesture much more dramatic than you or I could.

    Every article I've read on the subject agrees.

    Consider life in the Neolithic Era: small farming villages. John makes a spear for Frank and everybody knows it. So later in the year when John's wife has a baby, Frank's wife makes a cute little outfit for her.

    Now fast-forward to the Bronze Age: a city with a couple of thousand people, many of whom barely recognize each other and don't even know each other's names. John makes a new wheel for Mary's wagon. John doesn't need any of the clothes Mary makes but she makes a coat for Bill. Three months later, Bill replaces the broken window in Pete's house. Next summer, Pete brings his band to Sarah's house to perform at her daughter's birthday party. Sarah keeps bees and gives Hank some honey. Six months later John needs a new pair of shoes and Hank makes them for him.

    Each person has provided goods or services to someone else, and each has received goods or service from someone else, so they all feel that they've gotten a fair deal. But these people don't know each other! This isn't an intimate little village where everybody is family; if somebody invented the process of cheating, how would anyone know he did it? The answer is: keeping records. In many early communities, olive oil was used as a currency and people traded chits that represented one pint or one gallon of olive oil over at Sam's olive grove. Sometimes they'd carry them home, but sometimes they'd just leave them at Sam's place and Sam became the first banker. The value of goods and services was calculated in ounces or pints or gallons or barrels of olive oil.

    The first chits were made by scratching hash marks in soft clay and then firing them. The hash marks eventually evolved into numerals. Roman numerals actually were mostly hash marks: I, II, III, etc., with a few shorthand notations. V was five and one V upside down underneath another V, forming an X, was two fives, or ten.

    As commerce became more complex they needed symbols for more concepts besides numbers, such as date, quality, etc. People expanded this system to other concepts and soon there were symbols for animals, activities, seasons and gods.

    Carl Jung tells us that these beliefs are instinctive in our species; he calls them archetypes. Genetics was not a mature science in his day but we now know that instincts are pre-programmed into our synapses by our DNA, which has evolved over hundreds of millions of years.

    Most instincts are clearly survival traits, such as the universal instinct in vertebrates to flee from a large animal with both eyes in front of its face: a predator. Any animal without that instinct will be eaten before he gets old enough to reproduce and pass his DNA down to another generation.

    The instinct for belief in the supernatural is a little harder to explain, since it does not appear to confer a survival advantage. On the contrary, judging by the headlines in this morning's news, religion appears to motivate us to kill each other. Nonetheless, it might have been a survival trait in the distant past, when dangers existed that we can't imagine. Or it might just be a random mutation that happened to be passed down through a genetic bottleneck, and we're stuck with it. (Not all of us: my family seems to have lost that gene, so perhaps there's hope for humanity.)

    Actually, Jules Verne wrote his science-fiction novel From the Earth to the Moon in 1865. His travelers were shot out of a space cannon in a projectile with no engine of its own. However, the first rudimentary rockets had already been invented by the Chinese in the 1200s, so it was just a matter of time before somebody had the brilliant idea of combining the two ideas into a new technology.
     
  13. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Something About Pedantry

    Ped-ant, Ped-ant, Pedant-Pedant-Pedant-Pedant, Ped-aaaannnnnt ....

    Sorry, I wanted to use a "Pink Pedant" joke, but couldn't make it sound neither gay nor creepy.

    Okay, part of the problem is that the question sort of depends on itself.

    The key to understanding the proposition would be mathematical; twenty-six letters equaling forty-two phenomes, however many punctuation marks, and finite rules of assembly. Hamlet is a statistical necessity, given enough time and variation.

    The problem is that in order to understand that fact one requires a written languageā€”mathematics.

    'Tis true, if humanity had not yet learned writing, such marvels as it has actually achieved would defy its imagination. The question just seems to spiral in on itself. But I do take your meaning.

    Well, that and I have a sworn affidavit composed by an infinite number of monkeys who just happen to have typewriters.
     
  15. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Written language was invented early in the Bronze Age. Civilization could never have advanced into the Iron Age without it, much less the Industrial Era and today's Post-Industrial Era.

    Yet . . . if a denizen of the Stone Age were picked up in a time machine and taken on a tour of today's civilization, I don't think that writing would be the technology of our era that amazes him the most.

    He'd surely be in awe of our skyscrapers, airplanes, movies, weapons, clothes and musical instruments. But I think what he would try to hide under his bearskin robe and take back to his own tribe would be our incredibly wonderful tools! Imagine what he could do with just one metal saw!

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    The wheel could not be invented until metal cutting tools existed.
     
  16. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Written language is the same as spoken language, but without all the embellishments. As an experiment to show the difference, we will write a script composed of pickup lines and conversation topics, designed for males to impress the ladies. Next, we will give this transcript to 10 male test subjects. Although all will have the same written material, not all will meet the same level of success with the ladies.

    The reason is, the exact same written transcript, does not work the same way for all when it is converted to speech. Each test subject will add embellishments in their own way, based on body language, inflections of voice, environmental context, etc. These added addenda, beyond the written, add a secondary overlay effect, which can enhance or take away from the written transcript. Written language, only, would level the playing field. If all the subjects were simply told to hand the girls the written transcript the result would be more uniform.

    If you do the math, a good written argument with poor verbal embellishment can lead to a mediocre result, while a marginal written argument with excellent embellishment can add to a better than average result. Writing helped to take away the distractions of the embellishment, which can make meaningless words appear to have profound meaning.

    In the entertainment business, the same script of written text can be offered to many actors and actresses. Some can enhance the words better than others and get an academy award. Others may not push the same words as far. I can write fairly well but I would lose points with verbal the embellishment. It would be better for me to team up with a professional embellisher. The archetypical king and his close advisor would team up embellishment and words.

    An interesting application of this observation is connected to politics and the biased media. Conservatives media personalities dominate the radio, while liberals media personalities dominate TV. Let us do the math. Radio cannot make use of video enhancements, visual props, body language or facial expressions. The talk host is more of less limited to the written transcript and emotional appeal for embellishment.

    With TV, you can use emotional appeal, facial expressions, body language and visual props to embellish the written transcript. If you do the math and subtract out all the embellishment, down to written, conservatives do better with less embellishment; radio, while democrats do better with enhanced embellishment; TV. The math would say there is more substance within the conservative written transcript, since it does better in media with less embellishment. FOX news does the best on TV, because they use all the TV embellishment as the liberal media, but start with better written content.

    Abraham Lincoln would have a hard time running for office today, since he was not a pretty man and would get negative points off the top, since the total package would loose embellishment points. He may have to up his written game.

    Written language benefitted everyone, since it allowed a way to remove the veils of embellishment. This was useful in commerce and early science, since it helped to avoid the charisma of con artists and magicians. But since reading and writing was not taught to all, until the modern age, written communication took a long time to level the entire field.

    An interesting effect is how many students have lower writing and reading test scores. What that does is lower the value of the written and enhance the value of the embellishment. This would be ideal in the world of embellishers. The value of the written is lowered not by its content but by one's ability to gauge the value of the content.
     
  17. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Written language has its own embellishments. Psychologists study these things all the time. As a professional writer I often help people with their resumes, and there are lots of tips for submitting a resume that will make a better impression on the headhunter so he'll forward it to his client.

    Font, color, size, headings, margins, spacing, bulleted and numbered lists, flush vs. ragged right, hyphenation vs. a short line or one full of long spaces, indentation, bold, italics, abbreviation vs. spelling out, exactly two pages, etc.

    This is even more true, and there are many more attributes to fiddle with, in an advertisement, magazine cover or website.

    Now as a resume consultant, and many years ago as a hiring manager, I kept seeing resumes that had been done by a "resume service." They were really good looking, well-laid out with eye-catching graphics. But they were full of language errors! Not just typos, but plain old stupid composition. My reaction to the applicant was always: "You obviously spent a fair amount of money on this. Yet it's a piece of crap. You expect me to hire you? What kind of stupid mistakes are you going to make with MY money?"

    Also: con men have had no trouble adapting to the internet.

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  18. pljames Registered Member

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    How do words become sentences?

    Excellent post all. From grunts to pictures too symbols to words spoken too words written. I cannot see my thoughts in my mind, but can see them down of this screen. I can hear my words when spoken. In both cases meaning has it's understanding at some point in the communication. How do we know what we are going to say after the first word? First the first word, then the string called a sentence. Could it be the first word is morphed into memory to write the following sentence. I am convinced that the subject of the post is the catalyst of the whole piece. That the words relate to the subject and the sentence. About the meaning the writer meant, In free writing anything goes, losing meaning as one writes, but in structured writing one has linear and detail ordered writing. Thoughts please. Paul
     
  19. pljames Registered Member

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    How can I use ambiguous words in a sentence to shorten the whole piece? Paul
     
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Psychologists tell us that reading is a skill we overlearn. It is, in fact, one of the last ones people lose as they get older. Alzheimer's patients who can't remember what you said five minutes ago can remember something they read five years ago. (A hint: If someone you know has it, don't talk to them. Hand them notes.) So literacy is an integral component of who we are and what it means to be human.

    Our brain has a fully dedicated speech center. We actually think in words. We don't know what we're going to say after the first word, because the thought and the sentence are being created simultaneously in real time.

    Writing is a slower process than speaking, so we compose the thought first, in silent speech, and then transcribe it into writing. Because of this, we re-work it, changing it from the colloquial form of English that is fine for a sentence that's going to be forgotten in five minutes, into the more proper form of English suitable for a sentence that may be read multiple times, or perhaps even published. Today's electronic writing tools have even changed the process of writing: We can now go back a second time and a third time to make the sentence even clearer, and also to correct errors and even change the attitude.

    That's a horrible idea! Who thought of that??? Toss it in the trash and forget you ever heard it.

    The advantage of writing is that you can be clearer and less ambiguous! Brevity is not an important goal in writing, unless you're entering a contest and the rules say, "Tell us in 100 words or less why you like our product."

    Write as much as you have to in order to express yourself completely and accurately. THEN you can go back over it and look for ways to make it more efficient. But most of us can't do it. I write for a living and even I have trouble making things shorter. This is why we need editors. My wife (who is also a writer although not a professional) goes over my writing and it comes back 2/3 shorter.

    But whatever you do to make it shorter, don't inject ambiguity. That's not concise writing: it's bad writing.
     
  21. pljames Registered Member

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    Language

    I am beginning to see how language, programs us to communicate our thoughts too others. From characters/symbols to a word/paraphrase too words sentences and paragraphs, we communicate out thoughts in print to others. I am now just seeing and understanding a word has ambiguous meanings and could be misused within a sentence. I now see where editing could also be misused as well. I cannot pinpoint where the writer misinterpreted the misused word. If this did happen one cannot understand, what the writer meant to say, so the reader reflects on what was correct in the readers mind instead of the writers.

    My argument still would be we are flawed humans (look at our history). We are not perfect so we make mistakes and supposedly learn from them, but yet we still are not perfect. A mentally retarded person is going to try too be understood (their way). I've been told their is more than one method of intelligence there are several. Could writing be one to? I thank this forum and the people on the thread for their patience's. Thoughts please. Paul
     
  22. pljames Registered Member

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    Excellent answer!

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    Fraggle Rocker,
    "I can hear my words when spoken. In both cases meaning has it's understanding at some point in the communication. How do we know what we are going to say after the first word?"

    Our brain has a fully dedicated speech center. (We actually think in words. We don't know what we're going to say after the first word, because the thought and the sentence are being created simultaneously in real time).

    Writing is a slower process than speaking, so we compose the thought first, in silent speech, and then transcribe it into writing. Because of this, we re-work it, changing it from the colloquial form of English that is fine for a sentence that's going to be forgotten in five minutes, into the more proper form of English suitable for a sentence that may be read multiple times, or perhaps even published. Today's electronic writing tools have even changed the process of writing: We can now go back a second time and a third time to make the sentence even clearer, and also to correct errors and even change the attitude.

    Excellent answer, you've made my year. Paul
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
  23. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Writing is a slower process than speaking. Speaking also allows body language and other embellishments. If we had ten people read a speech, they will not all be equally effective, even though all have the same written text. The embellishment will be different. Say we allowed some to use props, such as a nice complementary video, this embellishment can increase impact.

    In that respect, writing is slower but also more bare bones and naked.
     

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