Are Christians Expected to be Sinless???

Searcher,

As I explained, that was not my reason for starting this thread. I truly hope you understand that.

The excerpts were quite interesting. Thanks.

In answer to your question, do I "still" believe that Martin Luther King was a true Christian?... Well, Searcher, I never said that he was...

As I pointed out previously in this post, unless you or someone else can tell me that he truly repented for his sins, truly asked for God's forgiveness, truly accepted God's great gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and went to God in the Spirit of Jesus Christ, I cannot answer that question. Only God can. As I stated previously, the only true Christian I can be certain of is Jesus Christ.



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Yesterday's history. Tomorrow's a mystery. Today is a "gift." That's why we call it "the present."
What will you do with your gift of today?

 

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Searcher,

That's God's business to know a man's heart. As long as a person that claims to be a Christian is bearing the fruit of God and feeding God's sheep, I have no cause against him. There are some that do good in truth and others that lie to themselves. Rest assured, God knows each man's heart. What somone says about the life of another person has no effect upon what God sees.

Man judges the works and God judges the Heart,
ISDAMan

 

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TS & ISDAMan,

Thank you for your responses. No offense, but the answer I am most interested in is Lori's, for 2 reasons:

1) she's the one who originally presented MLK as a Christian, and

2) she's the one who has written the most about the Christian "test of spirits".

It seems extremely clear to me from the man's writings that he fails this test big time. I wouldn't have a problem with that at all if he hadn't falsely presented himself to the people as a Christian. Most people took him at his word without even bothering to take a peak at the man behind the curtain, so to speak. Even I know that a true Christian believes that Jesus was the Son of God - why do the Christians on this board (and nearly everywhere else) want to overlook that "test" when it comes to MLK?

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Searcher,

First, my apologies. I know you are looking for an answer from Lori, however, your statements peaked my curiosity here so I took the time to look behind the curtain and read the web pages in their entirety which you say makes it extremely clear to you that Martin Luther King, Jr. was not a true Christian.

As I stated previously, only God can be the judge of that. I was curious though to see if he, in fact, denied that Jesus Christ was God/the Son of God as you alluded. What is extremely clear to me, after reading his written college theology assignments (which he was being graded on), is that he was under instruction as to the specific issues which were to be addressed within certain contexts and restrictions such as the use specific sources. Never once in these college papers did I see him express a personal belief that Jesus was not God/the Son of God.

Although a "partial" explanation was posted up front concerning Martin Luther King, Jr.'s discussion about the development of certain Christian doctrine, to the contrary, Martin Luther King, Jr. went on to express that the most adequate explanation for these doctrines, including that of the Sonship, was the actual experiences that the Apostles had with the historic Jesus. That is... the spiritual uniqueness of Jesus, which the Apostles themselves observed, could most adequately be explained through the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Martin Luther King, Jr. did not explicitly express his personal faith in these assignments because that is not what the assignments were about. As a matter of fact, at one point, his instructor commends him for his personal restraint in this matter.

Let me clarify, please... I have seen a number of men and women of the past who have made great and positive contributions to society. I don't think that I have ever asked myself if they were Christian or not and, although I pray for their souls, I have never pondered about their salvation.

I am wondering, though, if you are willing to go back and re-read the papers, keeping in mind the circumstances and purpose for which they were written. If you do, please let me know if you still hold the same opinion?

I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.



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Yesterday's history. Tomorrow's a mystery. Today is a "gift." That's why we call it "the present."
What will you do with your gift of today?

 

By the way...

Lori!!! Lori!!! Are you out there?

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TS,

This is the introductory note from the paper on Sonship:

As far as I can tell from this, he was not being asked to play Devil's Advocate in any way. He was asked about whether or not he had any doubts. If he thought it was all hooey, he was free to say so - he didn't. Would you abandon your own beliefs so easily, TS?

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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

TS,

This is the introductory note to the paper on Fundamentalism:

It seems clear enough from this that the scorn for Fundamentalism is King's alone.

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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

TS,

This is the introductory note to the paper on Mithraism:

Maybe you're seeing something here that I'm not seeing - there's no clue here as to which direction he is "retraining" himself. Perhaps his true belief is that Christianity evolved mostly from the mystery religions?

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www.indigenousrocks.com

 

Hey, lookie, I haven't posted in this thread yet. (rubbing hands together, chuckling evilly) Let's stir up the fire!!

Okay, just kidding. I'm in a good mood today, go figure!

In answer, Truestory, No, I don't expect Christians to be completely sinless. Nobody is perfect, I think that's a fact we can all agree on. People make mistakes, and if they cause harm to someone else, I think they ought to try to repair the harm to the best of their ability, no matter what religious beliefs they have, if any.

I think one of the main problems I have is with hypocracy in people. (People in general - not just Christians are hypocrites)

For example, I have a co-worker who calls himself a Mormon - yet he is one of the most cut-throat capitalists I have ever met. He convinently throws away whatever part of his faith that is in the way of his financial success, and feels no remorse (as far as I can tell) at walking all over the people under him to make his job easier, pay a little more, or make him look good in the eyes of the CEO. Yet this man badgers me constantly about being a "heathen" or a "atheist" or whatever slur (and he does intend these as slurs) comes to mind when I decline his invitations to read the Book of Mormon. I hold myself responsible for my actions towards my co-workers, I don't lay the blame around me when I screw up like he does. I don't try to cheat people out of their vacations because I changed my mind and want that week off instead (like he has done to me!). Yet he is able to put on this angelic smile and tout the wonders of God like he's not this monster in real life. People who haven't worked with him have no idea what a slimebag this guy is, but I have seen his true side, even though it took me about a year to catch on to him. He's very deceptive. Boy, talk about the antichrist!!

THAT is the kind of person I object to, and unfortunately they seem to exist in all walks of life, belong to all kinds of religions and organizations, and come in all sizes, shapes, and colors.

 

Searcher,

For the student to abandon scriptural literalism "without undermining" the "profound foundation" of the Christian doctrine by no means can be equated with an abandoning of his "belief" in the Sonship of Jesus Christ. That Jesus Christ is God/the Son of God "is" the "foundation" of Christianity.

If you read King's subsequent sermon's, that he holds and preaches this doctrine is very evident.

 

Searcher,

Here, King is addressing two movements within Christianity. Making use of Cole's "History of Fundamentalism," one of the points King makes, for example, is that it is considered inflexible on the part of fundamentalists to interpret the Bible literally. That is something which I, myself, have always cautioned against. That the divine truth is not contained literally in the dotting of every "i" and the crossing of every "t" in the Bible is considered a "liberal" rather than a "fundamentalist" point of view within Christianity.

Again, this in no way can be equated with the abandoning of the belief that Jesus Christ is God/the Son of God.

 

Searcher,

O.K., Searcher, maybe we are seeing the instructor's commendation differently. My point was that the purpose of these papers was not for King to profess his personal faith. I take the intructor's comment to mean that King was successful in keeping a "balance" in the paper by restraining from over-emphasizing the side which he holds as his personal belief.

What do you interpret the instructor's comment to mean?

Either way, however, can this really be equated with King's abandoning his belief in the Sonship of Jesus Christ? In this paper, King makes it very clear that, although there are many surface similarities between mystery religions and Christianity, Christianity is by no means a "mystery" religion. Christianity is fundamentally unique in that it is based on the knowledge of God through the observed and recorded historical fact that God came to us as man in the form of the divine Jesus Christ.

Ooops... Sorry for the edit. Hope it did not cause you any problems.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 09, 2000).]

 

Skye,

"Pittsville" at work with this guy, huh?

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I am curious, though... Do you love him anyway? If so, how do you reconcile his actions?




[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 09, 2000).]

 

True' -

Curious question...

Do I love him? No. Respect him as a human being? Yes. Respect him as a worker? No. How do I reconcile his actions? I figure he has lost sight of the real meaning of life. We are not here to "one-up" eachother. What we ARE here for might still be up for debate, but it's not for competition and money-grubbing reasons, that I'm pretty confident of.

 

Skye,

I believe that respect is good and of course, always welcome.

Thanks... More curiosity follows...

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You say that he has lost sight of the real meaning of life... then, you go on to say that what we ARE here for might still be up for debate.

Is that to say, in some way, that you believe the real meaning of our common life is to respect each other?

I believe that we are here to love each other, no matter what. Without love for each other, I see us as nothing but bitter and stagnant souls. Love brings us to live and grow in peace, with ourselves and with each other.

What do you believe we are here for?


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 09, 2000).]

 

truestory,

That was a very well thought out question!!!!!

With Jesus, We Have Nothing To Fear,
ISDAMan

 

True'-

I don't know the whole story as to why we are here.

Part of me thinks there isn't any specific reason - we've outgrown our ecological niche, and I'm not sure if that's what was supposed to happen with our species. We sure aren't doing a very good job taking care of this planet that we've "figured out", which makes me fear that the days are numbered for our species. Mother Nature has a way of removing species entirely from the face of the planet, and I doubt we could stop Her if She got sick of us ruining Her great green globe. An earthquake here, tornado there, hurricanes and floods for good measure, and the globe is fresh again. I don't believe that humans are any more special than any other animals, in the big picture anyway. So what's to stop us from going the way of the dinosaur??

On the other hand, since we are here, we might as well at least LOOK for meaning. We can strive to improve and repair this globe that we've polluted so badly. We can strive to improve and repair our interpersonal relationships. We can strive towards a lot of things, and perhaps that's what we're here for.

Maybe it's a race for knowledge - can we figure out how to straighten up the damage we've done before we hit "critical mass", or will Nature get sick of all the weeds and decide it's time to turn over the soil and start over? I sure hope it's the first scenario - I really don't want to get hit with that cosmic rototiller!!

In a way, though, I find it reassuring that life will go on after I and the rest of the human race is gone. I think that the life force that everything springs from is much less delicate than our little planet. Even if our entire world was smashed to pieces, I believe that life will go on, in other parts of the universe. Even the end of the world is not the end of the story, and that, somehow, reassures me.

Love, though, is certainally a worthwhile persuit. It is much easier on your heart to soften it with love, instead of hardening it with hate. I really don't hate this guy at my work, I feel sorry for him primarily. His cut-throat attitude will eventually hang him.

 

I THINK TIASSA AND OXYGEN SAID IT QUITE WELL, BUT I DO WANT TO ADD SOMETHING TO IT AND WILL ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.

(1): Do you expect Christians to be sinless because they rebuke sin?

ONLY IF THEY'RE DEAD.

(2): Do you have the impression that by virtue of being a Christian who spreads God's eachings against sin, the Christian believes that they are holier than thou and without sin?

YES I THINK SOME DO, BUT THIS IS TRUE OF MANY GROUPS. WHY DO I BELIEVE THIS ?
BECAUSE I'VE BEEN TOLD OUTRIGHT THAT "SO AND SO IS NOT SAVED BECAUSE…………." AND THEY HAVE INDICATED THAT THEY THEMSELVES WERE SAVED.


(3): If a Christian sins, in your eyes, does this discredit them from answering their call to spread the Word of God concerning sin, forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ?

THIS IS A REAL GRAY AREA HERE.

SHOULD SOMEONE LIKE JIMMY SWAGGART BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY? HAD HE
ONLY BEEN CAUGHT WITH A PROSTITUTE I COULD HAVE JUST SMILED
ABOUT IT AND LET IT GO, BUT ACCORDING TO AN INTERVIEW WITH THE
WOMAN IN QUESTION "HE TRIED TO PERSUADE HER TO BRING HER VERY
YOUNG DAUGHTER INTO THE ACT". BE IT RIGHT OR WRONG I HAVE NO
COMPASSION OR RESPECT FOR THIS PERSON AND HAVE DIFFICULTY CALLING HIM A PERSON. DO I WANT THINK THESE ACTS DISCREDIT HIM, OR ANYONE LIKE HIM? DAM RIGHT!!!!!!!!

I ALSO FIND IT STRANGE THAT JIMMY CAN BE FORGIVEN AND RETURN
TO PREACHING THE GOSPEL, BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CAN A
HOMOSEXUAL BE ALLOWED TO TEACH, PREACH, ETC. THERE APPEARS TO
BE A DOUBLE STANDARD HERE THAT MANY, IF NOT MOST CHRISTIANS
DON'T SEE AS BEING CONTRADICTORY. COME ON GUYS………… GET REAL.

I TRY TO BE OPEN AND HAVE RESPECT FOR OTHER PEOPLES VIEWS AND I AM CONSTANTLY SEARCHING FOR MEANING. BUT UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WILL I LET SOME PUSHY POMPOUS ASS CRAM THEIR VIEWS DOWN MY THROAT.
THESE TACTICS MAY WIN AN ARGUMENT, BUT THEY SURE AS HELL FAIL GET THE POINT ACROSS TO ME AND OTHERS LIKE MYSELF.

I'VE READ AND BEEN OPEN TO THE BIBLE, BUT I FOUND INCONSISTENCIES WITH IT AND I CANNOT HONESTLY SAY OR FEEL THAT THIS IS "THE WORD OF GOD" PLEASE DON'T COME BACK WITH THIS STUFF THAT THE 'HOLY GHOST WILL GUIDE YOU'. IT IS JUST TOO EASY TO USE THESE TACTICS WHEN YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN SOMETHING.

I'M OPEN TO YOUR POSTING, BUT AS I'VE POINTED OUT IN THE PAST IN OTHER POSTS, THE SAME THINGS ARE BEING REPEATED AND SAID HERE THAT I'VE HERD AND BEEN READING SINCE THE 70'S, AND THE ONLY THING FOR SURE THAT CAN BE SAID IS THEY HAVE DO HAVE SOME HISTORICAL TRUTH TO THEM. ALSO I HAVE NO INTENTION OF ARGUING ABOUT THAT WHICH CANNOT BE PROVEN.

IF YOU THINK I'M BEING UNFAIR, KEEP IN MIND I DON'T THINK SCIENCE, PHILOSOPHY, OR ANY RELIGION IS CAPABLE OF EXPLAINING THE TRUE MEANING, IF THERE IS ANY. I THINK IT IS JUST AS USELESS TO USE SCIENCE TO TRY AND SAY THERE IS NO GOD. ALSO PHILOSOPHY, LIKE RELIGION IS JUST A BUNCH OF NON PROVABLE IDEAS.

I STARTED THIS A WEEK AGO AND A LOT HAS BEEN ADDED SINCE THEN. MY OPINIONS AND IDEAS ARE MUCH MORE SIMPLISTIC THAN THE OTHERS. I WISH I HAD THEIR ABILITY TO EXPRESS MYSELF. ANYWAY…………………………

IT SEEMED FROM READING A FEW MORE OF YOUR RESPONSES YOU HAVE TONED DOWN YOUR RESPONSES. I LIKE THAT SINCE IT LEAVES IT OPEN FOR DEBATE AND I PERSONALLY FEEL LESS DEFENSIVE. AS I SAID ABOVE NO ONE, INCLUDING YOURSELF LIKES THIS CRAM IT IN YOUR FACE APPROACH. THEN AGAIN I COULD BE CONFUSING YOU WITH SOMEONE ELSE WHO USES THIS APPROACH, AND I DON'T MEAN LORI. IF LORI IS SERIOUS ABOUT HER VIEWS, SHE WILL LEARN SOMETIME BY TONING DOWN SHE CAN GET BETTER RESULTS.

 

Skye,

Thanks for your response and I hope you don't mind my following with this discussion. I find it to be very interesting. Thanks again.

What I don't understand is this...

How can a man's negative actions towards you be truly reconciled in your heart by figuring that he has lost sight of the true meaning of life if you, yourself, do not know what that is?

Do you think that if you were able to love him unconditionally, despite the wrong which he has done, that you might find peace in this relationship at work?

Searcher,

Thanks for pointing the name thing out to me again!

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[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 10, 2000).]

 

Zapper,

Thanks for your response and thanks for being honest.

It is perfectly understandable that the actions of hypocrites would discredit that individual's right to spread the Word of God in your eyes. Whether or not they will be saved through Jesus Christ, which is what Christianity is all about, is a matter between them and God.

One of the points which I have tried to make here is that salvation cannnot be found by looking to the actions of others who call themselves "Christian." It can only be found by looking directly to the Word of God, which is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

Despite Swaggart's actions, the Word of God, salvation through Jesus Christ, excludes noone, including homosexuals.

Contrary to popular opinion, Christianity is not a "social" club. If we can believe what we hear in the news, even Swaggart is starting to understand that... Thank God!


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 10, 2000).]