OK. So we agree on that, then. The statement "God can't exist without the universe" is true in a world (take "world" here to mean all things, physical or otherwise) where there is an actually existing universe that is contingent upon him. It simply follows from the previous conclusion that any notion of a creation event at some particular point in time is nonsensical within some more primary reality that transcends it. Nothing can happen, everything simply always is, eternally. Therefore, God can't exist without the universe also existing. I can certainly imagine (or at least begin to imagine) a possible world in which there is God but no universe as we know it, but it's kinda pointless to do so if we're saying that God is ontologically primary, because that means that there are no possible worlds other than the one there is, nor were there ever. Forgive me, but I'm not entirely sure what your overarching point is here. Tacking the following on from your subsequent post: It's more what the possibility of actual foreknowledge of any event implies. It says something about the nature of reality. What it says is that past, present and future are all actualized as one predefined entity.
Foreknowledge and predetermination are two very different things. Foreknowledge can exist without predetermining. Or does the weather man, on the odd occasion he gets it right, cause the weather simply because he could predict the weather?
That's different, and incorrect to boot. The weatherman can at best give percentages of probability. He doesn't "know" what the weather will be in that sense. God, on the other hand, knows. Not because he has a Doppler radar, but because it is allegedly in his nature to know all that will happen. The problem with this is that if he knows prior to the event, then the choice is an illusion.
A difference only of degree, and there is no disputing that foreknowledge does not necessarily constitute predetermination. A weather man has tools and capabilities at his disposal. An omniscient god simply has a much better "Doppler radar", so to speak. A better analogy might be the naked eye versus a telescope. The degree of ability to anticipate things is proportional to the ability to observe those things at a greater distance, whether in time or space. I would also refer you to this great post by RPenner on indeterminism. http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...tific-method&p=2967740&viewfull=1#post2967740
Rav, et al, Yes! (COMMENT) While the universe evolves, it evolves through immutable rules. In the universe, it has been discovered that at the center of every galaxy, there is a Supermassive Black Hole. And that while the stars at the out edge of todays galaxy are unaffected by the gravity of the spinning supermassive black hole at the galaxy center, the movement of the stars at the edge were, at one time, linked to the influence of the black hole gravitation at the galactic center. The effect is immutable over time. Also important was the quote I inserted. (COMMENT) Yes, if the GD/SB were subject to the same rules, and serially observed events over time in the same way, then the "foreknowledge of any event implies" there might be a cause and effect. (Agreed) But in the case where humanity can not yet travel to the future, but the GD/SB observes the entire timeline (seeing the past, present and future), then the "foreknowledge of any event implies" nothing other than the greater access to observable events. (COMMENT) Well, only a slight disagreement here. The universe and its parts follow the laws of the universe, and not a predefined path. It is the laws of the universe that govern the motion of the constituent parts in the universe to interact in the predictable ways they do. The GD/SB did not (necessarily) intercede; with the possible exception of introducing the initial energy for first motion and the establishment of the basic physics. The physical laws of the universe, may or may not be directly connected to bio-electrochemical synaptic activity that constitutes the mechanism for the human decision making process. But it is theoretically possible that from the moment of first motion, a cascade set of events was set in motion and the evolution of the universe and everything in it happens because it could not happen any other way (like the energy applied by the cue ball on racked set of balls on a pool table). It may look chaotic, but it is not. Most Respectfully, R
But a weatherman can't know what the weather will be with absolute certainty without having the ability to control the weather, because there is an element of chance in play. Just as God couldn't possibly know what path we will choose without actually making the choice for us. It's an interesting post, but his assertion that randomness does not exist is debunked by Prometheus in his following post.
Sounds like determinism to me. Is that really what you're saying? That the universe is deterministic? Anyway, it doesn't matter whether you are or not because my argument doesn't hinge on something like that. To reiterate, if what we call the future already exists (which is one of the possibilities that you're positing), then it always has. Every "slice" of time, so to speak, exists eternally. If we can say that there was a creation event (as much of a difficulty as it may be to talk in those terms given a transcendent creator) then such an event was not merely the creation of a first moment destined to dynamically unfold into subsequent moments, but the creation of the fullness of all things present and future simultaneously. In other words, you, me, everyone else, and indeed every single thing that any of us will ever do, was predefined in that creation event.
That's what I tell my cat, but he keeps jumping on the car. It's against my will, and I know that after I polish the bonnet, he will try again and go for a mighty slide!
With great logic I can tell the future. With great will, my great destiny will be achieved. This one is old.
Nobody knows for sure, whether God enters the discussion or not. But there are benefits to believing that you are, so you might as well just go ahead and do that Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
So? Is that automatically bad somehow? As soon as we work out of the definition that God is the most powerful being in existence, this already means that God's will cannot be overrun; from the perspective that God is the most powerful being, humans don't have (any libertarian) free will (worth mentioning) to begin with. Bottomline, the only way to be concerned about these issues (of free will and determinism) is if one already takes for granted the possibilities such as those suggested by mainstream Christianity - notably, eternal damnation, only one lifetime for action, salvation exclusively by one religious figure. Without such taking for granted, the issue of free will vs. determinism falls away.
That's not the matter at hand. What is being discussed is whether or not predestination and free will are compatible, not whether or not their compatibility to good or bad. How does that follow? An all-powerful god could still grant its people free will. There's nothing inherently paradoxical about God and free will, only predestination and free will. Absolute garbage. These issues have been discussed since long before Christianity began, and have implications entirely unrelated to Yahweh.
This is the key point in the disagreement... whether one can observe/know events (whether as part of an "all at once" or a "timeline") without there being some cause/effect from the event to the observation. If one considers there to be a need for such linkage then knowledge of events implies an existing and unbreakable chain of events from event to observation/knowledge, even if that chain, and all chains, occur simultaneously - in zero time. And both foreknowledge and omniscience would imply predestination. If one considers there to be no such requirement for linkage between knowledge and the event - then foreknowledge and omniscience, in the absence of such linkage, would not have that implication - and free-will might still exist within this context. But in both cases I would say that the experience of free-will is merely an illusion compared to what I would call genuine free-will. Genuine free-will, as I see it, requires manipulation of the fundamental building blocks of our universe that breaks the laws of physics... a non-random/guided event without a cause... like a cueball that moves or changes direction of its own volition. Anyhoo - that is probably for another thread - or many threads - or existing threads. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
That's interesting because it took the death of the Son of God to buy back genuine freedom. Such an expense was not necessary for a fake freedom. Manipulation is much easier, yet never indulged in by God. Genuine love can only be based on genuine freedom. How I relate this to what you said about physical laws, since the Son is responsible for maintaining all matter, our physical world may be displaying a loss of freedom as the result of sin.
Many are call few are chosen. If those pastors where right all that where called would be chosen because no one could resist the call of God. Matthew 22 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” So yes God does call upon many with His message, with dreams and visions but each person has to respond with acceptance to His calling. Those that reject his calling will not be chosen to be conformed to the image of Jesus. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
No God does not predetermine your response God foreknows your response. We are not pitiful puppets. God predetermined your eternal destiny from His foreknowledge of your response. Once again God knows the Begging and the End. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Your mind cannot see how it can be that God foreknows what a persons free willed response will be. God the Creator created the universe and this universe has time as a integral part of it. Therefore God not being part of His creation is separate from His creation and that means he is separate from our Universe time. Therefore He can see all our times from His perspective outside our universe dimensions. All Praise The Ancient Of Days
