How did time flow at the moment of creation BB

Hi All

The Arrow of time at the moment of the Big Bang.

As it is well known and proved time "slows relative" to the force of gravity surrounding the object on which it is measures. Thus time moves a tiny bit less of Jupiter with a heave gravity field than it does on earth with a lighter gravity field and slower on a masser object relative to a less massive object.

My question is at the moment of the Big Bang gravity was infinite, because the singularity was an infinite mass, thus according to the known laws of physics "time should have stood still" but luckily somehow it did not?

What are your ideas or answers to this question?

Regards

Alan

 

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This is the simplistic, pop-science view. What the singularity actually means is that our physics breaks down at that point, and Einstein's equations yield infinities. Which means we don't know what happens at that point.

Current inflationary theories do not require an infinitely dense, infinitely massive singularity.

 

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Even if the BB Singularity were not infinite in mass and gravity, time according to known cosmological laws should have flowed paintakingly slow at first in that colossal gravity of the early universe , and this could mean that the universe could be much much older and ancient, than we think or have calculated with present scientific knowledge?

 

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Time only slows down in a gravitational field from the viewpoint of an observer in a lower gravitational field. From the pov of the observer in the gravitational field, time moves at the rate it always does.

In the scenerio you propose, there is no outside observer, so from the pov of the universe, time is flowing normally.

 

Gravitation not primary cause of time dilation

Time did NOT pass at the BB because time is a property of matter and no matter came out of the BB.

AlexG believes gravity causes time dilation even though I've already explained to him it is the difference in speed between objects not moving at constant velocity with respect to each other, but he refuses to accept that as fact even though it is the more logical conclusion derived from effects seen in both Relativity and quantum mechaics.

The effect of gravity causing time dilation only appears as such to the severely conformist mind who will make the connection between time and motion. The effects of gravity on bodies within a gravitational field imposes a different amount of force on each one when moving at different speeds through the field, causing their speeds to differ.

 

Gravity is only considered to be 'big bang singularity infinite' if you ignore all the science that says our universe started with an inflationary event. The reason it was considered a singularity is because the Friedmann cosmological metric predicted it was singular at r=0. It kind of amazes me how little this is understood in these public science forums. Considering that Eternal Inflation fixed all the predicted 'holidays' in the classical Big Bang Theory and brought cosmology to predictive science. I'll link a few things on it. The last link is mind blowing. The second link is a power point.

http://www.counterbalance.org/cq-guth/index-frame.html

http://online.itp.ucsb.edu/online/strings_c03/guth/

http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0702178

First Observational Tests Of Eternal Inflation. [mind blowing model to attempt to find evidence of other universe by examining WMAP data and the Planck experiment data when it becomes available].

http://arxiv.org/abs/1012.1995

What inflates is a QFT scalar field soliton. Guth [my favorite theoretical physicist] estimated the soliton mass as equivalent to a 'garden pea'.

I think this is the third time I've linked this stuff but based on the conversation after I don't think anybody read them. The history of theoretical and experimental physics is amazing.

 

Wow what an ignorant first post. What you think is irrelevant since your POV is 'jaw flapping ignorant'.

 

Without a theory of quantum gravity we can say really do nothing but speculate about the BB singularity. We know the universe was very small and dense but that's about it.

 

There was no big bang singularity. If there was we'd still be wondering why the universe didn't collapse long ago.

 

Gravitational time dilation is quite well proven, and has nothing to do with relative motion.

Actual experimental results tends to trump your 'logic'.

 

According to GR there was AFAIK, and that's pretty much the only rigorous definition of a gravitaitonal singularity we have. That was my point really.

 

When the metric becomes unphysical at cosmological r=0 it's a clue that the beginning of the universe is a quantum event. Guth and Linde hypothesized that applying the GR cosmological metric with >> dominant cosmological term to the QFT soliton the soliton might inflate [expand]. I think it's part of your road to quantum gravity in the sense that when quantum gravity comes into 'full view' it will recover inflation theory in its domain of applicability. Just like GR and the Standard Model. I believe you QG folks will find it for us. Intellectual work for you a hobby for me to follow along.

 

I don't think there was any gravity in the first "moment"of the BB. The energy we call "Dark Energy" was probably all that existed at that point, Inflation occurred before gravity, lightspeed, time or even space "condensed" from that initial energy and when gravity started(possibly as Higgs Bosuns "condensed" out of the soup)a few femtoseconds later it was able to slow the expansion below lightspeed, as the density has dropped gravity no longer can dominate DE and expansion is now accelerating(IE we are now a DE dominated Universe, not a gravity dominated one).

But the point I would make is that gravity, space, time, energy/matter and lightspeed are all interconnected and interdependent. They are actually just different aspects of the same whole, as are Dark Matter(whatever it turns out to be)and Dark Energy. And when the Big Bang occurred they were all EXACTLY the same thing(since DE is somewhere around 70% of all the Universe today, that would be my bet). And it all came out of the Quantum realm, which we don't yet grock fully.

Grumpy

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Good one, Grumpy. All those things being equal was the ultimate Symmetry, a state which had to be, it would seem, as nothing was outside or before to direct it to any specific, particular, certain direction. I would call it a default, forced condition; however, any ideas on why or what the unavoidable constraints would be?

 

It's gravity that caused the inflation. The gravitational interaction with the soliton caused the soliton to inflate. The accelerating expansion is a mini inflationary event because some false vacuum must be left over from the inflationary event that began our universe.

 

SciWriter

I am not a particle physicist, but I think what we're learning with the LHC(including the "Higg's like particle")will give us more answers in the near future. If you look at the Universe through the view of Entropy the moment of the BB was the moment of lowest(near zero if not zero)entropy and greatest simplicity and uniformity(order)time is the direction of greater and greater entropy and complexity(which is why you cannot travel backward through time, total entropy always increases, never decreases).

Grumpy

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You might find the links I posted on Inflation Theory interesting if you're interested in cosmology.

 

Time Dilation Has Everything To Do With motion

I did not say gravitational time dilation wasn't well proven; I said it is not the primary cause of time dilation, and that it only explains the effect, but does that wrongly in saying time dilation is caused by gravity.

You are wrong in saying it has nothing to do with relative motion. I revealed in my essay, "The Time and Motion Relationship," that time is a property of matter as shown in Relativity's Twin Paradox. Gravitation cannot change time rates, but it does change the speed of objects encountering its fields. In causing objects to change speeds such that they are moving at different speeds, it is their difference in speed that causes their time rates to be different. Therefore, time dilation has everything to do with relative motion.

Talk is cheap - cite your "experimental results" which you claim here and was unable to show them to readers the last time you disagreed.

 

Ah, so you revealed it. To whom? Where can we find your essay? As for gravitational time dilation, it is the major factor in GPS corrections.

Perhaps instead of blowing hot air, you do some reading?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound–Rebka_experiment

 

TAG

Acceleration affects time, if you are on a high gravity(gravity and acceleration are equivalent in Relativity)world your time will pass a little slower than that measured on a low gravity moon. In the extreme gravity of Black Holes time stops for everything falling into that BH(as observed from "normal" spacetime). Lightspeed and time are also inversely, exponentially related. If you want to be technical it's because mass distorts spacetime and enough mass concentrated in a small enough area distorts spacetime to infinity. Speed also distorts local spacetime(as observed from outside that frame). There are several causes of time dilation and every one can, taken to extremes, bring time to a crawl.

Grumpy

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