What are some reasons we use fossil fuels?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by kingcarrot, Feb 28, 2012.

  1. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I pointed that out, but it was NOT for the reason you claimed.

    You said:
    Nowhere does it say that in your report.

    Nuclear and Renewable can't, but they indeed can cut back other thermal plants. It's true they don't let all the big coal plants go totally cold and don't have to as most are part of the base load that is used at night as well, but if they do have excess thermal capacity above the base load then they don't feed them fuel at the same rate as they do during the peak periods. Most reasonably new coal burners can operate at the same efficiency down to just 60% of rated power (below 60%, the "heat rate", a measure of their efficiency starts to rise (rising heat rate is less efficient), down to about 35% of power, which is typically as low as you can run them and generate sufficient heat to produce power at all).

    If you notice the ramp up of demand in the morning, it comes on at a rate that allows them to bring a big thermal plant up to full power pretty much in synch with the increasing demand. The rate they can bring them back up is called the "Ramp rate" and is expressed in MW per minute.

    New coal plants have ramp rates in the 20 MW/minute range (and indeed are fast enough to be co-dispatched with wind power), while 30 year or older plants are in the 5 MW/minute range. To put that in perspective, a reasonably new 500 MW coal plant, running at 60% power can ramp up to full power in ~10 to 15 minutes. A 30+ year old plant would take ~45 minutes to an hour.

    We can use the excess capacity that exists if consumers charge at night.
    But charging during the day, particularly near evening rush hour will add to the peaks.
    We don't know what they will do because there aren't enough Electric cars and day time charging facilities in service to tell.
    Yeah, "no shit", since that's not what you claimed.

    Spinning reserves are kept in use all day and the amount of Spinning reserves increases with demand, so it is much higher at peak times to handle spikes in demand and for unplanned outages. It is NOT the definition you used of "base load power plants spinning all night without a load"

    Look it up: Spinning Reserve is the on-line reserve capacity that is synchronized to the grid system and ready to meet electric demand within 10 minutes of a dispatch instruction by the ISO. Spinning Reserve is needed to maintain system frequency stability during emergency operating conditions and unforeseen load swings.

    Well because what you referred to as spinning reserves was not correct.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
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  3. ilija Registered Member

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    Because rich corporation can get more money out of our pockets with gas engines, it is not in their interest that we have free anything, even though we could have free electricity, hydrogen powered cars... people came up with a lot of smart things, but we just don't see them mass produced
     
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  5. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    While there is a tiny grain of truth in some of that, the rest is sheer nonsense. Obviously you don't know anything about power generation, energy conversation losses and such. You also know *absolutely* nothing about using hydrogen as fuel for motor vehicles. The hydrogen car is completely dead and may *never* be revived. Go do a little basic research.
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    True. In general no one wants to give you free stuff.

    I have "free" electricity (solar) - you could get it too. Why don't you?

    You could buy a hydrogen powered car if you were willing to shell out the $$$ - why don't you?
     
  8. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    Indeed. The first fossil fuel discovered (coal) made the Industrial Revolution possible, by leveraging the power of human muscles, draft animals and water mills by a factor of (very roughly) 100.

    The discovery and exploitation of the next generation of fossil fuels, petroleum and natural gas, muliplied that 100 by (again very roughly) another 100, bringing the Industrial Era to its peak. Some of the things we take for granted that would never have happened without petroleum:
    • Only about 6% of the population (in the developed nations) are employed in the food production and distribution industry, versus more than 99% just a couple of centuries ago. This made entire new fields of endeavor possible.
    • Our jobs now only require roughly 40 hours of our life per week, instead of the 70-100 hours of the pre-industrial farmer. Even farmers today, with their engine-driven tools, work a standard week and have lots of time for education, vacations, entertainment, hobbies, and unfocused relaxation.
    • The industrial economy produces a surplus no one could have dreamed of. By the 1890s, the U.S. economy toggled from scarcity-driven to surplus-driven. For the first time in human history, the average person could afford everything he needed for a modest, comfortable life, and had surplus income to spend on fun, luxury, travel, education, entertainment, starting his own business... or just more beer.

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    Hiroshima and Nagasaki shaped the entire human race's attitudes about nuclear fission and fusion. Chernobyl and TMI didn't help at all, and in case we were about to forget them, we now have Fukushima. Add the not unreasonable academic concerns about storing waste that will be lethally dangerous for a longer time than the entire existence of civilization, and it's easy to understand why most humans would like to find an alternative to nuclear power plants.

    Solar collectors in extremely high orbit are the safest option I've ever read about. They can be as large as necessary and beam their energy down in focused microwaves. There's only one little problem: Building and launching them will be the largest project, with the longest duration, that humans have ever attempted, making the pyramids and the transcontinental railroads look like Tinkertoys and Erector Sets. It will require the cooperation of all nations over several generations, surviving all political upheavals.

    Yeah, we'll get right on it!
    Nobody's talking about installing a nuclear-powered electric generator in an automobile any more than we have steam-powered electric generators installed in today's electric cars. Economy of scale dictates that you build a few gigantic generators, transmit the electricity over wires, and pump it into batteries in the cars while they're parked: exactly what we do now with our coal-fired steam-powered electric powerplants to get the juice into the few electric cars on the road.

    The inefficiency of converting the energy multiple times is much less than the inefficiency of building and installing a fossil-fuel-burning steam turbine or a nuclear-reactor-powered steam turbine in everybody's Toyota.
     
  9. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Heh! I suppose I should have used some sort of tongue-in-cheek emoticon, Fraggle, because that's how those statements of mine were intended.

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  10. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    There is no really good, obvious sarcasm emoticon; that would probably be self-contradictory. Mrs. Fraggle says that's the only one I need because I never understand sarcasm and when I try to do it it never works.

    You pointed out that nuclear generators provide only a fraction of the world's power, although other members noted that it's not a small fraction. I suggested that the reason for this is that people are uncomfortable with the concept. Note all the antipathy to both existing and new nuclear plants since Fukushima.

    This is one of those situations that our species handles very poorly. Everybody will wait until the energy crisis is dire, from the standpoint of both cost and availability, before they finally start approving the construction of new nuclear plants out of desperation.

    Obviously it will take a while before they come online so things will get worse before they get better. Furthermore, many of those plants will be built in countries whose governments are just a teeny-weeny bit dysfunctional. Imagine, for example, the South Koreans paying North Korea to build the plant in their country and sell them the energy!

    So corners will be cut during the construction, and graft and sheer incompetence will be rampant. This planet will end up with a few nuclear plants that make Chernobyl look like a textbook model of perfect engineering.
     
  11. Gravage Registered Senior Member

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    1,241
    But what will happen with environment and eco-systems if we continue to use fossil fuels and nuclear energy?
    Is there any way to recycle this and use it as energy fuel or something else, and how much can we recycle, we sure cannot recycle 100%, because it's impossible!?
    Cheers.
     
  12. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

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    2,862
    Petroleum companies are the real movers of why we are still stuck with gas powered engines for they want to make profits and anyone that tries to make other competitive types of engines or fuels is quickly bought up, suppressed or just proven unworthy to use in our society.
     
  13. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    The burning of fossil fuels is an ecological nightmare. No matter how well we clean up the process (the Japanese have come rather close to zero nasty emissions), it still, by the very nature of fundamental chemistry, releases carbon dioxide. This can't help but accelerate the current warming trend, which may well reach a peak higher than has ever been reached in the warming-cooling cycles of the past. If this happens it could break the cycle and it's anybody's guess what the planet will be like a few thousand years later.

    But using nuclear fusion to generate electricity, using only the technology we have today but managing it more skillfully, will not have any short-term environmental impact. It will greatly lower carbon dioxide emissions and reduce or eliminate our contribution to global warming. The impact is long-term, as we continue to bury nuclear waste in places where there could be an earthquake sometime in the next twenty thousand years. It's also possible (although I personally believe the possiblity to be too small to take seriously) that civilization will collapse, literacy will be lost, and nobody will remember what's in those dumps with the funny signs all around them.

    This is why I advocate high-orbit solar energy collectors, beaming down the energy as microwaves, which are harmless enough that cattle can be grazed over the receiver fields even if you wouldn't want your children to play there.
    Recycle what? I don't understand your question. The waste products of both external combustion engines (the coal- and oil-burning turbines in electrical power plants) and internal combustion engines (the gasoline, propane and diesel motors in vehicles) don't have much salvageable energy left in them. Since our engines continue to be more and more efficient, most of the waste produced by these engines is carbon dioxide, which is at the very bottom of the chemical energy chain, with literallly zero salvage value.
     
  14. Gravage Registered Senior Member

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    1,241
    Well, I somewhere read that thorium nuclear reactors will have the capacity to dissolve all the radiation and what it will be left is iron???
    Cheers.
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,646
    Nope. Thorium reactors generate nuclear waste like any other reactor.

    You may be thinking of a device called an "energy amplifier." This device emits a powerful neutron beam that can transmute thorium into uranium. The uranium then undergoes fission and releases more energy than the neutron beam generator requires, resulting in an externally-excited nuclear reactor.

    If you have such a beam you can also use it to transmute nuclear waste into other (hopefully less dangerous) isotopes. But you don't need the thorium reactor for that, just the neutron beam. (Which thus far has not been built due to the difficulty in generating that powerful a beam.)
     
  16. Gravage Registered Senior Member

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    1,241
    Well, it's true that oil and gas companies don't want to invest in research in new sources of energy, because oil and gas are still the most profitable.
    Cheers.
     
  17. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe it's really because they ARE oil and gas companies and so that's where their expertise lies?

    What makes you think their unique expertise in finding, drilling, delivering, refining and retailing fuel/oils, would simply extend to getting energy from wind, water or solar?
     
  18. EndLightEnd This too shall pass. Registered Senior Member

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    1,301
    We are certainly smart enough as a species to find a new source of energy. With all the advances in the past 100 years one of the only things that hasn't advanced is our primary way of obtaining energy (Hmm). And this is for one simple reason, profits (and probably control). The diesel engine was originally produced to run on hemp and seed oil, not petroleum (but that is far to easy to come across and people could grow their own fuel).

    I also remember hearing of oil companies grabbing up huge pieces of land in areas that are ideal for solar panels (southwest USA); because you cant build on land you dont own without permission.
     
  19. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    100 years ago our primary source of energy was coal. In much of the world wood was still being burned for energy.

    If that statement isn't correct I'm only off by ten years at the most. But I'd be very surprised since steam engines were still the dominant providers of motive power and they all worked just perfectly with coal. Railroad locomotives could even burn wood, although I suspect it was probably too bulky for steamship engines.
     
  20. Gravage Registered Senior Member

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    1,241
    I would not argue on this but when it comes to gmo and oil companies it's all about money and nobody cares about ordinary people, they would destroy everything in their path just for their financial or scientific success. Just look what did British Petrolium..., there is no ethics or moral anymore, there are no limits. This is why people don't believe in science anymore, or anything science does.
    Cheers.
     
  21. anky2930 Banned Banned

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    22
    First of all it has high energy density and the other thing it can be created and is available easily in comparison to other fossil fuels.
     
  22. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

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    2,862
    BP had an accident as did a few other oil companies over the years. They took as many precautions that are available to them to prevent this accident from happening. The accident was determined to have been caused by human error as was the other accidents that oil companies have made. To say that science has let us down wouldn't be a very smart thing to say when in actuality it was a human that made the problem happen not all of science.

    I really do not think that any oil company wants to invest billions of dollars into building an oil rig just to watch it be destroyed and lose all of the income that it produced, do you? Do you also think that BP wanted all of that bad publicity that the world was seeing? Science can only show us how to do things but it is up to humans to work as safely and wisely as possible with the tools science supplies us with.
     
  23. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    No, they did not want these things to happen, but they took a calculated risk.

    As you say, there is always a non-zero probability that something will go wrong. You can spend more money on more controls to reduce that probability to an even lower value. But as the probability becomes lower and lower, the next level of control becomes more complex and the incremental cost of implementing it becomes greater and greater.

    There is a point in every project where you say, "Okay, we have to stop implementing more controls now because it will be too expensive. If there is a failure we'll have to deal with the cost and the publicity. But we've done the math and we thing the probability of that happening is so low that we can ignore it. Incidentally, by ignoring it we will save a lot of money."

    This is how these things happen. To the executives of BP, the Gulf spill was a regrettable accident. They made a bet and they lost it, but life goes on and in any case the loss to them is purely financial. Their homes are okay.

    To the people who live around the gulf, the spill was not a regrettable accident, it was a catastrophe.

    The BP executives, in essence, played Russian roulette with those people's homes, jobs, and communities. Not their own.
     

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