That time is an illusion

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Anarch, Mar 2, 2003.

  1. proteus42 Registered Senior Member

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    Religious philosophy based on the Vedas. Look it up in Google, for example, it's worth one's time.
     
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  3. Slacker47 Paint it Black Registered Senior Member

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    Has anyone actually read the Vedas? That would amaze me.

    Well Anarch, could you please start some sort of claim as to why you came to this conclusion. You seem to have locked yourself out of the rest of society. Its great that you have tremendous introspection, but how did you get there?
     
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  5. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    No. I actually dig Jesus, but Christianity is too widespread for me to avoid ragging on him.

    I have. Why's it amazing?
     
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  7. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Ya uh, you guys... did you know that uh... that one Jesus dude is uh.. "pushing up daisies"? Yeah, he's dead. Oh, and all the jesus people have made it to where I'm not so sure I'm "into" Jesus. I'm guessing if he makes people act the way a lot of jesus freaks act, I'm not really interested in what he's selling you know? Personally, I think he was insane. Have you read the things he said? "I am the truth, the way" or whatever? What an ego-maniacal freak! I can't believe people listen to that kind of crap!
     
  8. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    He was totally fucking mental! I mean, even if he was responsible for the weak, simpering, slavish religion of Christianity, you have to admire him for being so damned mental and succeeding before the internet was even invented!
     
  9. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    But didn't Hitler do the same thing? I mean, succeed befor the invention of the internet? I have a hard time admiring Hitler, except for his apparent monumental tenacity. Hrmph. I guess I really have a hard time admiring Jesus too, thought the rumor is he was kind of the hippies, peace, love, blah. I guess I can admire his success. Funny, I've never really compared to the two from that perspective.
     
  10. genocider Registered Senior Member

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    Well Jesus from Nazaret could be was a little crazy, but I don't think he stablished nothing like a kind of slavery but truth will liberty ourselves. This guy tired to do something to help the others and admire him for that... not for his succes... no succes for a crucified man and to this one, when it was without justice, I only can respect.
     
  11. Anarch Registered Member

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    Sure.

    First, Aristotle says everything can be identified by its essence, and everything eventually evolves into its essence. I think that's rubbish. Plato's idea of the forms is just as useless. I think Heraclites was right - everything is being created, and falling apart, and because we can't identify somethings "essence" (what's the essence of a chair?) and its Form is something we can't really rely on, then how do we identify things? We don't - nothing exists. That is, a thing doesn't exist because we can't identify or communicate it to others, because its identity is an arbitrary construct of the human mind. We can't measure things either. Go on, get a ruler or a measuring tape and see how long your finger is. Can you do it precisely? Sure, say, maybe 10cm or something - but can you do it perfectly? 100.1mm? 100.117469372mm? What is Pi? etc

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    We can't measure anything, we can't objectively identify its essence, everything is temporary anyway, and so I say the world is a dream. Perhaps we're all actors of the one schizophrenic mind which is actually having this dreams.
     
  12. elicash82 Registered Member

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    Time time bla bla bla philosophy

    Go read Kurt Vonneguts Slaughterhouse-Five, I think it gives an interesting concept of what time is. Then again, I think people who can insist on anything being the truth are wrong. I mean in philosophy class I get this shit from a teacher, "Oh so if I think this bear is a cow, it is possible." Ok, well, it could be possible that this bear serves some sort of function that there is no way I could possibly understand with a fuckin Eucalidian mind. Yeah as far as interacting with society it is better not to kill the innocent or rob the food from a starving man. But to say you understand everything that you perceive like that bitch Ayn Rand is BS. Yes I think a child murderer is an asshole and deserves punishment, if someone killed my kid I'd go kill the perpetator myself, but I'm not going to say that I can say with absolute certainty that that is objectively evil. I figure it's evil because I've been brought up to see such a thing as evil for various reasons. Evil may very well be a human created concept. I hope when we die everything is made clear, or one day we'll figure out a way to live forever and do the 2001 thing and turn into giant space babies and understand all of Witgensteins rambling. So my consensus is time could be an illusion, Jesus could be the son of God, and Adolf Hitler could be a hero. It just depends on what these words mean to you and what defines each of these words in your conception. But if you come up to me and say Hitler is the son of God and you want to babysit my kids, I'm not gonna let you and my personal concept of hate is going to be put into action and then I'll (try to) kick your ass.
     
  13. genocider Registered Senior Member

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    "I think people who can insist on anything being the truth are wrong" Is that true?

    Well philosophy is a little thing: only can reveal the reasons of the things and the accuracy of the arguments... not gonna save the world or answer all the questions but make those questions... I can respect you if you gonna kill somebody who kills your son, but I can say too, that there is not a reason or argument in doing this.
     
  14. illxluck Registered Member

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    You wouldn't happen to follow Jungian theory would you? Carl Jung's (insane?) theory of a collective unconscience is rather similer to yours, though your theory on time seems to be your own product.

    If you don't mind me suggesting, it happens to sound like you made a 'shroom' realization? It's common for users of this drug to beleive everything is connected, or one. Like reality is tinted glass and with this drug it becomes translucent. No offense of course...

    I think for your idea to be true, all of reality would have to exist simultaneously. Which it does not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2003
  15. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Well, I can appreciate your point to an exent, but there are a couple of points which you are making presumptions about. I think they are mostly reasonable assumptions, but only when constricted to the currect knowledge of physics, which is damned limited on an "absolute" scale.

    First, while the Jungian theory of a collective unconscience seems quite counterintuitive at first, so do a lot of things that are true. I'm not saying it IS true, just that it's definately possible. For instance, all that is meaningful in a literal sense in abstract. Since we do not know exactly now the brain works, we cannot say that the abstract certainly has a phsycal representation in the brain. As far as we know, there are more dimensions that the brain (not being constricted to "known" physics, utilizes in a manner simply incomprehensible to us, or at least... unknown to us.

    With no absolute knowledge of time or the universe... only somewhat decent (for all we know) theories, it is difficult to make the prediction that all "all of reality would have to exist simultaneously" with any high degree of certainty.

    Please note that I'm am not saying "physics an math are wrong". I'm just saying that I suspect the road to depth and certainty is a long one. Further, it may turn out that our understanding will inherently fall short.

    Just two cents... pardon.
     
  16. machaon Registered Senior Member

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    fill me in

    Can someone please fill me in? I was just run over by a bus and lost six minutes somewhere....
     
  17. illxluck Registered Member

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    Your suggesting for us to question anything that we are not absolutely certain about.

    Why bother? You will never realize the truth. You are suggesting that there is no truth aslong as we don't understand the full complexities of our brain -- which even then we will not be certain of, as it is through our own brain that we interprete it.
     
  18. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    I guess you could get that from what I said. Really you just kind of repeated what I said back to me. Maybe I did the same thing to you. I was really just making an epistimological assertion.
    Mostly becaue IMO, the journey's the thing.
    Will so.

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    I was saying that there is no truth about something until you find out the truth about something, which fundamentally may not be possible. Seems to me that the truth is onion-like with the layers and the peeling and the business.
    One of the possibilities I was referring to regardiong "may not be possible".
     
  19. Anarch Registered Member

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    No, I wasn't on drugs when I made my realisation. I was trying to figure something out and that's the closest I got to a metaphysical solution for it. I did make my realisation by myself, but now you've mentioned it I'll try find out about Jung's collective unconsciousness idea - any books I should read about it? And what do you mean by all of reality would have to exist simultaneously - I'm thinking that all of reality has to exist at once, because it is Being - everything that exists is part of Being, everything that doesn't exist is not - and I don't think you can cut Being up into little sections.
     
  20. Anarch Registered Member

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    If it helps, I've almost finished reading the Bhagavad Gita and I bought a copy of the Upanishads today.
     
  21. Zack_Kinney Registered Senior Member

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    You said: ""I say time is an illusion. Everything is part of one collective imagination of the infinite mind, and we are all seperate incarnations of it, and yet we are all one, us and the universe, which is why there seems to be no contradictions. Life, the universe and individual consciousness is a dream. You walk out the door and watch someone get mashed under a bus, and his consciousness will become reborn through a newborn child on the other side of the planet in six minutes time.""


    Time? ARe you sure it's an illusion? Are you using the terminology correctly? I certainly think you are lost. And how can you certainly confirm that incarnation takes place?

    Time is nothing but a guage for measuring the difference, to distinguish the history, to distinguish the present and the past. In my perception, time is relative.
     
  22. river-wind Valued Senior Member

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    if time doesn't exsist, then how would you measure change?

    If there is no physical object or energy to measure a change in, can you measure the passage of time? Is time simply a state of matter/energy, like density/weight/frequency?
     
  23. genocider Registered Senior Member

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    Well, from my point of view time is the way we can measure the changes and not anything we can measure. It's like use a number to count some onions (three, for exemple): you use a number (wich don't exists phisically) in order to measure how many onions thre are. Although this, if you can consider time as a existent being, you can considere it as the summatory of all the changes that you can find in the history... but I think this is an unnecesary metaphisical position.
     

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