Is God not responsible for everything?

No Christians/Jews/Muslims are going to defend God's holiness?

I'm saying good is responisble for people in hell. He knew that was going to be their destination when he created them. For this reason i do not believe in hell. CAN NO ONE REFUTE MT LOGIC? :bugeye:

 

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I'm pretty sure anyone can refute that logic.

 

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REFUTE AWAY THEN...

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Isn’t this is just a variation on the omniscience versus free will argument?

If God is omniscient then he knows from the beginning of time the final destiny of every individual and note that that is before anyone has had their own “free” say in the matter. This implies that the choice of who goes to heaven or hell has already been apparently arbitrarily decided before humanity had even begun.

It is not so much that hell doesn’t exist but any pre-knowledge of future events makes any attempt to comprehend what might or could be true impossible to determine by non-omniscient beings such as ourselves. Once the complete chain of causes and effects are laid bare like a map then our individual actions would be nothing more than just the result of ensuring the map stays true. We would be powerless to do anything else and the concept of free will becomes a meaningless concept.

The question then becomes why would a god want to create such a meaningless paradigm. And if he knows everything that is going to happen then wouldn’t his existence be equally pointless?

The problems evaporate and life and the universe takes on more meaning once you eliminate the presence of an omniscient creator. Human free will then becomes real, albeit within the probable constraints of determinism.

 

one third the host of heaven chose to follow Lucifer. BTY, Mormons do not belive in just hell and heaven. There are three glories to heaven, and the only way to gaurantee going to hell would be to not keep the first estate(the one third of the hosts I was talking about), and we've already established you didn't do that, and to deny the Holy Ghost, which is very rare.

As for heaven, if you repent after you die, you can go to the lowest, and provided you have not been provided the truth, you cannot lose, because if you didn't know if something was wrong, then how can you be judged on it? This is also the reason we don't practice infant baptism, your not considered acountable until your eight. Seems a little fairer, right?

And took them into account. You might say Satan's being "used."

 

To the original topic...
God created humans, from there, he pretty much let em do their own thing. From there, humans were left to survive on their own, and to help each other. If there is any cause for human suffering, it would be from the selfishness of others. (Unless, of course, god appeared to someone and caused them suffering in that manner.)

 

What rule book? Obviously, the one asking the question is going to imply something from a yes answer. I want to know what the yes answer is.

Vinnie

 

Re: No Christians/Jews/Muslims are going to defend God's holiness?

Noone knew that those people are going to hell not even god. God knew that bad will go to hell, but god doesn't know who will be good and who will be bad, that's human choice, man is responsible for choices and thus responsible for where he/she ends up in. Here is a silly story to illustrate:

John goes to school to study physics, he have choice of taking good hard classes, or tennis and music, or drop out of school, ect. God knows the present that John is an able human who is about to go to the University to study physics. God knows that if John study hard he'll graduate soon and find a good job. God also knows that if John goofs off and spend all his time on sciforum then he'll never graduate, drains his family money, and never have a decent future. So god knowing the outcomes doesn't eliminate John's free will and responsbility.. Same thing for heaven and hell.

 

Re: Re: No Christians/Jews/Muslims are going to defend God's holiness?

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1. God doesn't know who going to heaven or hell?? But doesn't he know everything?

2. I didn't say john wouldn't have a choice, i said john's choice doesn't matter God knows if john will graduate or not, god knew this when john was a baby. God knew this when john was a sperm/egg and god knew this before he created john. It's not john choice in question, it's gods. Why would god create john knowing he wasn't going to graduate? (or in my example, go to hell.)

 

God is not responsible for everything. We humans are. Humans are the ones who built the Babel Tower and Adam and Eve were the ones who CHOSE to eat the apple. Maybe you all should study theology and read bible some more rather than trying very shallow approaches.

 

Re: No Christians/Jews/Muslims are going to defend God's holiness?

Mr. Hero, you are simply not accepting the fact that there is hell just because it doesn't suit your taste. However, just because you don't believe in the notion of hell, will it be selective and stop existing for you? No. It's like the allegory of the forest. Your logic was rather too easy to refute... I guess no one tried.

 

Re: Re: No Christians/Jews/Muslims are going to defend God's holiness?

Youv've criticized my post but failed to refute my logic, just as no one else has. I believe god is reasonable and logical and hell is neither reasonable or logical. Your telling me a kind just god would created people to put in hell?

 

Re: Re: Re: No Christians/Jews/Muslims are going to defend God's holiness?

I refuted your argument in that you have tried to deny the notion of existence of hell simply because it did not suit your convenience. And thus, I refuted it. IF you meant it to be some other way, then obviously, you have failed to achieve what you wanted me to refute.

 

Okay.....

God is good, kind, just, all powerful, all-knowing .

If god is all knowing, then he knows where each person he creates will end up when they die. If Little jessica molly is going to heaven, god doesn't suddenly realize this when she 14,35, or 97 years old. He knows this before, again the key word is before he created her. Thus when god creates people, he knows wheter or not they will be in heaven or hell. Now the question/logic is, Why would a kind, just god create people he knows are going to hell? the answer...He wouldn't. Religion created the fiery hell, if there is one, it's not a place of torture or punishment it's merely total seperation from god.

Rufue away ZACk.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: No Christians/Jews/Muslims are going to defend God's holiness?

And you, with no evidence and less skill, embrace "the notion of existence of hell" [sic] simply because it suits your primitive theology.

To think that you have refuted an argument with a fairy-tail is delusional.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Christians/Jews/Muslims are going to defend God's holiness?

Well, I was not assuming the hell existed, but rather merely pointing out the fallacy of logic in mr. hero's argument. Your criticism has no point whatsoever. Thanks for playing.

 

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counter.parry. and..ohhh....decapitation by ConsquentAtheist .

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Is GOD responsible for human suffering or everything. Ha-ha, No

In the beginning God created all things. He had prepared the land suitable for us. He did not create the whole world as a desolate land for us to live for a couple of decades.

Then our creation would have been for nothing. Why would a GOD build a land that had a very low life expectancy. He produced a land that would produce an abundance of every resource so that man could live not die.

Is GOD responsible for suffering? I do not believe that he is because in the beginning (I feel redundant even though this is where a lot of people should have started) Genesis 3:1 starts why we were on our road to hardships. God created us with free will. He did not want robots that would do as he commanded. I seriously doubt that would be a GOD of love. Then I would be under a GOD that did not care for my thoughts nor my praise. He gave us free will to choose him, life. We all have a choice to be with him and to worship him.

Did GOD create us in his own image to be made in his likeness, Genesis 2:7. Would a GOD create us as lonely creatures, Genesis 2:22. No, he gave us companionship. But man made choices giving achnowledgement to our free will.

He chose to eat of the tree that was forbidden to eat from which GOD had told them not to eat from. Did man choose to eat from what GOD told him not to. Yes. It was not GOD choosing for man but man choosing for himself utterly depriving man of GODs goodness.

He had given Adam the ability to eat of every divine thing GOD had created. Then man, Adam, chose not to believe in GOD's commands which GOD new of the consequences which is why he told Adam not to do before Adam ate the fruit. If GOD was not a caring GOD he would not have told Adam and let him find out on his own. Then GOD sent him away from the Garden so that he would not eat of the tree of life which would have made Adam immortal.

So, Adam was then sent to work for what he is to eat. He lost dominion over the land. This is because of Adam's disobedience to God. He had it all and then he blew it, literally. He could eat when he wanted do as he wished and lived life without a care. All GOD wanted was companionship with Adam. Can you imagine someone creating the greatest place for you to live and giving you all that you need just so that he may have companionship with you.

After mans choice, not GOD's choice, did Adam have hardships. All throughout the bible it was written how man made choices. GOD had to literally put into the bible telling us through his prophets and disciples how to live so that we would have long lives. All of our diseases and hardships come from mans decisions. We have Gonorrhea, AIDS, all types of sexually transmitted diseases because of mans choice to have multiple partners. How many of us would have these diseases if it were one couple relationships throughout the entire planet. None.

I could literally go on with every problem in the world.

WE have literally pulled the plug on our own. Are we to say someone else is at fault for our decisions. I think not. We chose where we would be. We chose to be out of GOD's presence by sinning. And because we sinned we brought destruction unto ourselves. GOD oversaw what we did. He did not make our decisions. We chose what we wanted to do and we either reaped the reward or submitted our own destruction. GOD told us to draw away from sin so that we may live long lives. He was there to help us not destroy us. Where in the bible does it state that GOD put us somewhere to destroy us, nowhere.

And then in the midst of all our sins and our bad choices GOD sent his one and only son to die for us. To send my own son to death for another individuals mistakes would be unthought of for me. I would have said, he did the sin why must my son die for another persons decisions. Of course that is why I do not have GOD's thoughts but mans thoughts. Nowhere capable of thinking as GOD.

But GOD sent his son to take acceptance for everyones sin so that there was a way to be a part of GOD's presence. To know that there is a way to be back with a GOD who only wanted our praise and companionship. Even for me that would have been so hard to do. To give life to a baby that is yours, and he must pay for you. Then to imagine he, Jesus, never sinned. Perfect and blameless but died for what I did. Why? So that through Jesus, by acknowledging what he did for me and believing then there was a way that I may have a place in heaven. All I can say is only a GOD can do that.

Only a GOD can love me that much.

 

Defending God's holiness

Question:1
God doesn't know whose going to heaven or hell?? But doesn't he know everything?

Answer:
Psalms 139:1 God knows all things

Question:2
I didn't say john wouldn't have a choice, i said john's choice doesn't matter God knows if john will graduate or not, god knew this when john was a baby. God knew this when john was a sperm/egg and god knew this before he created john. It's not john choice in question, it's gods. Why would god create john knowing he wasn't going to graduate? (or in my example, go to hell)

Answer:
God gave John life through the miracle of birth, true but it was Johns parents who made the choice to conceive a child by having sexual relations. So then It was Johns parents who decided to have John. Mans decision to conceive a child. Then It was John's parents who created the ability for Johns birth. Then GOD knew that there would be a child born, named John. God also knew John's future. In turn man's choice for a child and GOD knew the future of the child. Its not that John's choice doesn't matter. Again man is trying to slide blame for John not graduating onto GOD. God has set up the ability for man to graduate. (Heaven or Hell) Its up to man to decide to take advantage. Man has that decision, always. GOD just knows the outcome.