why do some theists believe in Darwinian evolution?

Dywyddyr,

Oh yeah! we just do these things without reason, direction, or purpose.

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If we were purposless bags stool, bile, bones, etc, i'd be inclined to agree with you. Then again, there would be no reason to disagree. Eh, we wouldn't even know if we were alive.

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For you, it would seem, but not for me.

Do you know what it is to experience something?

jan.

 

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Jan,

So you have created an idea that science can't dis-prove and that is all the proof you need.

That's like saying there are invisible elephants in my yard, prove me wrong.

You made the claim, you prove it. Otherwise it's just your fantasy.

Futhermore and on the other hand, you ignore the mountain of evidence which would go against your fantasy. So nothing to support and a ton of evidence against, yet you still cling to the fantasy.

You're just not dealing in reality.

 

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Specious argument. It's not what I claimed: all of those things are part of what we do.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

I see, so you don't walk, run, look, eat etc.?
:shrug:

Again, a specious point. YOU made the claim that "understanding god" is our purpose. All you need to understand is the capability to think properly.

 

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jpappl,

Do you think science can determine whether or not everything is caused by a supreme being?

No it's not.

I can't prove it, but I believe it, because it makes the best sense.

Well, I've had fantasies that became reality in the past.
So I'm cool with that.

This is the point.
What is the evidence that go against a supreme, trancendental being?

What evidence?
Please provide.

I don't think you're dealing with reality.
So where do we go from here?

jan

 

Dywyddyr,

I was being sarcastic.

Don't worry about it.

Yeah, I do those things.

No I didn't.

jan.

 

No?

Then you'll have to start being less evasive.

 

How is what wrote, a claim?

jan.

 

Not what I said.
But if that isn't meant as a claim (of some sort) you'll have start being more explicit about you actually do mean.

I also note that you didn't dispute it in my earlier post:

 

@Jan --

What, you mean this response here? That's been there for quite a while now, not my fault if you didn't see it.

As for you having a hard time believing that I was a theist, I couldn't bring myself to care any less. What you, I, or anyone else believes is irrelevant if it doesn't reflect reality.

No, as an atheist I don't see the universe as a body at all. I see it as reality, it is what it is regardless of whether we like it or not, and nothing we believe will change that. Given that this is the universe we observe around us, I fail to see how my vision of it is wrong.

Nice try with the spurious assumption, but you're going to have to get to know me better before you can get away with that shit. There are depth to me which you could not even begin to plumb, unless you try hard enough and long enough.

 

Jan,

No and you can't prove I don't have invisible elephants in my yard. You don't even see the ridiculousness of your argument.

Yes it is. Here:

(Jan) You can't prove that god is not controlling evolution, so it must be controlling evolution.

(Me) You can't prove there are not invisible elephants in my yard, I believe they are there, since you can't prove they aren't, there must be invisibile elephants in my yard.

Do you see the faulty logic.

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

No see link above. It only makes the "best" sense to you because you believe it.

:spank:

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Here is an example. We are here with a purpose correct ? Gods greatest creation and god is omnipotent and omniscient.

Why create and destroy thousands of species, dinosaurs etc beforehand. ?

It makes no sense that an omniscient being would need to do so, or it's not omniscient.

Maybe you can try to answer that logically and then see if your idea still makes sense.

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How about the entire fossil record. Then answer the above question posed.

Why would god need to practice on transitional forms ?

If we are here with purpose (whatever that may be) why use evolution as the process because there was a very good chance that we may not have made it at all.

The evidence is that we evolved. There is no evidence that a god is involved in our creation.

Do you accept that we evolved ? regardless of whether god was involved or not.

You are adding that which does not need to be added to satisfy your belief. The reality is we evolved. The god part is just you fantasizing and is unnecessary.

 

jpappl,

Okay.

You're just reiterating my point.

Relax, i only asked a question.

Yes I can see the faulty logic, but that's not what I said.
I merely stated a point (which you agreed with) but came to no conclusion.
My thoughts on the matter formulates my belief, which I said I cannot prove.

Given the subject matter, I don't think it is circular reasoning at all.
To make a decision as to whether one believes in God, God does not exist, or to come to the conclusion that there is no evidence for God, requires a belief.
You cannot know that there is no evidence for God.

1) Okay, let's go with that.

2a) Irrelevant.

2b) Okay.

3) The natural course of things is they come into being, remain for a time, then die. From any scripture the process of life is come about between the asociation of spirit and matter. Spirit is God's nature, and matter is material nature. The spirit is never extinguished.

4) The choice is made by the individual spiritual spark (soul), which act according to it's condition.

5) It makes complete sense.

The fossil record cannot determine whether or not God exists.

I don't know what you mean.

I don't think "God" used evolution as a process.

What is it about the evidence that convinces you that God did not originally design the forms, for souls to inhabit?

I don't see how we evolved from one cell to this abundance of life forms.
The explanation of the evidence doesn't reveal that to me. If I was to accept it, it would be based purely on blind faith.

Obviously it's not as simple as that, as there are scientists and people with a good fund of knowledge of evolution who disagree. And there are people who believe evolution to be truth, without actually understanding it but accept it anyway.

jan.

 

The fossil record can't conclusively demonstrate that God exists, but think about the God you are positing: he placed many species of animals on the planet, then killed 99.9% of those species, then ensured that those species' fossils wound up in particular layers, whereas fossils of the other 0.1% that are still alive appear only in what seems to be recent geological formations. Even if you dispute that we can know the age of the rocks involved, God sorted them so that the species He destroyed appear generally on the bottom.

Let's also consider that God killed these species and all but one family of mankind in a Flood. Why? Because man was wicked, and the best plan the omnipotent and omniscient God you believe in could come up with was to drown them all. How many of the babies that God drowned were wicked? When he killed off the dinosaurs...why did He create and then kill them?

The system He set up, if you are correct, makes him seem more than a little psychotic.

Yet, theism is not incompatible with a belief in evolution, and many theists do embrace the science.

 

About understanding God.. we all commune with God, its just very very difficult to understand when you are.

 

But then God can be such a cause too.

 

You would probably never say so directly.

But your constant "just try and understand", "you're stubborn", "you do not listen" and "talking to you is a waste of time"
show otherwise.

Another person's needs, interests and concerns are irrelevant to you.
Not only that, you are willing to demonize people if they do not think, feel, speak and do as you think they should.

 

Signal,

Apart from the fact that I don't constantly say these things, maybe the times when I have said them to YOU, it has been warranted?
How long have we been talking about the same thing?
How many threads have you started which ends up being about the same thing?
How many times have I tried to advance our conversation only to be met with the same thing?

What arre your needs, interests and concerns?

No Signal!
You do.

jan.

 

How do you come to that conclusion?
Why is the bible bullshit?

jan.

 

The Christian/Jewish/Islamic God is not incompatible with Evolution in the slightest. If you go by the original translation of the creation story in Genesis The Six 'Days" to create the world was actually 6 'Periods of Work; meaning God started working on his project and stopped but not neccesarily 24 hours. In fact given that to god 10,000 years isn;t even the blink of an eye. The Creation story would cover billions of years easy.

 

Do you think Adam was a part of the evolutionary process, or literally created by God as written?

jan.

 

What has not changed in all those years is you trying to have the upper hand.
What has not changed in all those years is you still treating the discussions at this forum as a matter of theists instructing non-theists.
What has not changed in all those years is you still per default interpreting questions as requests for help or guidance, as opposed to seeing them as attempts to discuss things.

This is how things between you and I, you and others do not progress.

I have changed over the years; for one, I overhauled my communication style, which is connected to a change in my personal ontology and epistemology.
But you don't seem to see it. Probably because in order to see, you would have to have similar qualifications as I do.

And you are the arbiter on what "is warranted" and what isn't ...

If we have been talking "about the same thing," this means that we haven't talked about it effectively, that the real issue hasn't been addressed.
I have tried to zero in on what that real issue is, numerous times, from numerous perspectives, and you have often derailed these attempts back into the same things, maintaining the status quo.

You haven't offered any new perspectives or approaches over the years, while I have.


You are behaving like someone who has "arrived," who has complete knowledge.
I don't know why you're here, but you surely don't seem to be here to discuss and explore.

You have so far shown that you have no understanding for them.