If God is or isn't . . . ?

Simple philosophical question:

Much is made in this forum of what God is or isn't. Thus I am compelled to ask--

"When we say that God is something, are we also saying there is something It is not?"

Among Christians, it seems there is this vague idea that God is omnipotent, infinitely good, ad nauseum. Icons and poetry describe the nature and appearance of God. It is all, of course, for naught. But when we say something is something, what happens to those thins it isn't? This rarely becomes relevant, except that God is supposed to be everything.

If God is a booming voice, what is silence? If God is everything, what is nothing? If God is a destination, what is the rest of the landscape?

Or, if you prefer: Stand at the geographic north pole, on the axis. Draw a circle of any diameter on the ground (in the ice, snow, whatever), with its locus on the axis point. Now, are you inside or outside the circle? (Any point on a perceived sphere works for this illustration.)

By calling God that locus, you eliminate all other points. By calling God that circle, you eliminate one grouping or the other.

Is God the Devil or is the Devil actually God? Better yet, does it matter? Whatever we call creation, it all is there. It's almost as if the godly Names and their attributes are all just to distract people from finding out how cool the universe really is.

Thanx all,
Tiassa

------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

Brilliant.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Tiassa,

Are you in search of answers or are your questions rhetorical in nature?

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited September 21, 1999).]

tiassa,
I just finished dinner and this was sweet dessert! Yummmmmmmmm

>Is God the Devil or is the Devil actually God? Better yet, does it matter? Whatever we call creation, it all is there. It's almost as if the godly Names and their attributes are all just to distract people from finding out how cool the universe really is.<

I don't know if you're being rhetorical or not, but I'll assume you're looking for answers. Obviously this is a circular arguement, because if God were the Devil and the Devil was God, then Good would be Evil and Evil would be Good. Darkness would be Light and visa versa, far would be near and near would be far, gravity would be anti-gravity, matter would be anti-matter, and on and on and on. I'm..... not even going to go further. It's just nonsense. No offense, Tiassa. I think the universe is pretty cool, and so are you

Dorkamundo

Dork,

But, but, but, but...

If God created everything, and everything (and all concepts and objects) came from God -- that means the Devil came from God too. That means God is both good and evil -- and the devil, being a lesser being, is just pure evil. Kinda wreacs havoc on the sweet ol' goodie-two-shoes in the sky idea, doesn't it?

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Although God created us and could control us, I do not believe that God is much of a control-freak. There is an aspect of God, which we are given, called free-will. Although we cannot see it or measure it in physical terms, free-will is a concept that we know exists because we all have it. Evil (or the devil) is a free-will gone bad... a destructive use of free-will, if you will.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited September 24, 1999).]

I've always loved this little philosophical riddle.

Truestory: it's mostly rhetorical. I would love to say I'm seeking answers but I think the fact that there is no clear answer to the principle might be the point.

Dork: I think you're taking it too literally. In order for God-as-Devil to make Good and Evil trade places, as such, one must assume that the only "good" product reflects the observer's own interpretation. In other words, it's a large universe; we might think a bomb or earthquake or war is terrible and evil, but in the larger scheme, it doesn't really matter. The good and evil of our societies mean almost nothing in the scale of the universe. Thus, what you determine to be good could become evil, and v/v, and the universe would probably never notice.

thx,
Tiassa

------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

tiassa, you sure know how to make your statement, I love it !

about free will.
Isn't there something like providence ? Doesn't god knows perfectly when what is going to happen ? He has to if he is all knowing and infinite in time and space, he knows because he exists allready in the future so assuming that an infinite creature can 'know' anything about a finite creature, where is our free will if everyting is known in gods mind ?

------------------
"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

This is an old riddle and was addressed quite well by St. Augustine.

He was asked that if God is all powerful and so on, can he create a stone too great for him to lift? I'm sure we've all heard that one before; it's a variation on a theme of the questions Tiassa posed.

His answer was thus (I'm paraphrasing here): One cannot ask of God to do something that is a logical contradiction. Attempting to do so simply illuminates the limits of our understanding and not limitations of God.

Of course, this clarifies nothing...



------------------
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
-Mark Twain

Although God knows what will happen when we exercise our free-will, God is not much of a control-freak and allows us to exercise that freedom. The future that God knows is the result of our expression of free-will... God only knows what that will result in in the long-run!!!

In other words Pookums : Gods works in mysterious ways !

That is the last resort isn't it ? The last untakable fortress : we simply can't understand how it works, we just have to accept it as a fact.

Of course you forget that this statement comes from a human being as well, he might claim that he is in direct contact with this supreme being or even the being itself but we just have to take his word for it.
So ok, don't take my word but what if I walk on water ? Or raise the dead ? Or multiply fish and bread ? Would you then believe ? Don't you see how sad this is for an omnipotent being to have to resort to magical tricks to proof his existence ?

truestory :
you are contradicting yourself, I hope you realise that. Or else you simply have a radically different definition of free will then I have.
Let's first exchange definitions before we continue shall we ?
For me free will is the ability to choose between possible directions your life is going to take.
This choice will be influenced by many different factors: publicity, peers, family, all other sorts of media but still you are left with the ultimate decision. Now, if this decision is already know by a superior intellect all we are left with is the impression to have made our own decision while in fact we had as much choise as the tree who was falling...

------------------
"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

[This message has been edited by Plato (edited September 26, 1999).]

Regarding free will: In the Belltown District of Seattle is a large Christian church of forgotten denomination (I forget the denomination, not history). On the corner of the busiest street running by, there is a large marquee board. Among their favorite slogans during election season is the following:

"Liberty is not the freedom to do what you want. Liberty is the freedom to do what God says is right."

Free will?

thx,
Tiassa

------------------
"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

Some view free-will as the freedom to make decisions concerning what direction our temporal life is going to take. Others view free-will as the freedom to make decisions concerning what direction our eternal spiritual life is going to take. The latter is what free-will is all about and it is most important.

God created us and yes, God knows the final outcome of man's exercise of free-will. In a way, some of us who believe the word of God (which we were given as a gift to help us) also know, in general, what the final outcome will be. Some of us will be saved for all eternity, others will be condemned for all eternity. However, God does not micro-manage the spiritual decisions which we make as individuals. God gives us the information and the tools we need to help us choose the right spiritual path. Regardless of what any of us say, we inherently know what that correct path is, regardless of our human laws. God gives us the information and tools (free-will) which enable us to choose the path which leads to eternal salvation with God. Whether or not we do so, is a decision which we all make with our free-will. The only other spiritual alternative is to choose the path which leads to eternal damnation with evil.

Of course, for any of this to make sense, one must first exercise their free-will by choosing to believe in the concept of the soul.

truestory,

how can you "choose to believe"??? You either believe, or you don't. There is no choice. Are saying that anybody could just decide "ok, I'm going to start believing in God at the count of 5: 1...2....3....4...."? If you are making a choice, you are not taking on a belief; you are simply deciding upon the philosophy according to which you are going to live. That's free will.

Faith is not free will, on the other hand. For example, did you choose to learn about souls? Did you arrive at the description of heaven on your own? Did you generate even a little bit of your religion by yourself? No! You were fed your religion, and you made a choice to swallow. But you did not make a choice as to your religion's basic tenets. And let me ask you another question: did you ever face a choice of learning about, say, Polynesian faith before you decided you were a Christian? Or, maybe, Hinduism? Or Wicca, perhaps? You did not make a choice based on selection; you made a choice in the same sense that Soviet Union gave its citizens a choice: you either vote for a representative of the Communist Party, or you don't vote at all. Does that not smack of tyranny to you?

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

LIFE - According to Boris:

"You did not make a choice based on selection; you made a choice in the same sense that Soviet Union gave its citizens a choice: you either vote for a representative of the Communist Party, or you don't vote at all. Does that not smack of tyranny to you?"

I didn't? Oh, yeah, I forgot. Boris seems to be a wannabe god. He thinks he knows all things about all people and wants to create a new race by replicating humans down to their very last emotion - in the form of a machine...

I have no idea what Boris' life experiences have been which bring him to this point, and, I don't know about you, but I don't feel oppressed by tyranical force. In contrast to Boris' Soviet Union example, we do have a choice. Not a choice in the sense of which flavor ice cream to pick at Baskin & Robbins... However, it is not eternal salvation or nothing. It is eternal salvation or eternal damnation. You are very much involved in this process. You have been given the information and you have been given a free-will, so... You decide, er... choose... er... pick...

Just an after-thought... Hmmmm... I wonder what type of god Boris would be?

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited September 24, 1999).]

Wow, this a good one!

TS,

*high five*! Work it, girl!

Boris,

You are being disrespectful, but in ignorance, so I forgive you. : ) I must remind you though that this conversation has deja vu written all over it. Haven't we been here before? If not, then let me remind you that you are assuming that those who are saved in Christ are so simply because they say they believe, or because they want to believe, or because their family believes, or because they want to belong to the church. The Church of Christ, and not a church of Christ, are those who truly believe because they know. You can not know the truth without seeking the truth. And once you look in the right place, you are overwhelmed with evidence of the truth, but it is the kind of evidence that you have to experience personally with God. You are never going to hear me when I say that my life is changed. You won't hear me when I say that I feel as though someone popped my eyeballs out, and gave me a new pair. You don't hear me when I tell you that God answers me when I pray. And truthfully, I don't blame you, because it's something that you have to experience personally to even believe it's happening. BUT, and this is a big but, you do have a responsibility to seek the truth. What else is life for? What is limiting your search is this arrogant assumption that spirituality=ignorance. You assume that every single person who was ever religious in any way throughout the history of man has been so out of ignorance. This is a hideously ridiculous assumption to make. It is you my friend who has not done his homework, because if you had, you would know by now. How long it takes one to figure out that Jesus is the Messiah is the true IQ test. Some never get it. Some who are raised in a Christian household may have an advantage due to "availability", but most do not take advantage, as I did not. There was no way I would commit to Christ if I was unsure. No way. I could attend church with my Grandma. And I could even sit in on prayer meetings. I could pray. I could worship. But if I did not truly believe in my heart then it was all for not, and it was. In order for your salvation to exist, it MUST be an act of free will. And let me tell you, it's an act of free will every day; every minute of every day. It's not easy to be true to God in today's society. Do you notice that the right path is always the most challenging at first? Then when you realize how right the path is, it becomes easy to follow, and you wouldn't ever even think of taking the wrong path again. You can apply that to many things in life, and to Christ as well. Did you forget that I did face a choice about learning about other religions? Most people do within a lifetime. I think that spirituality in general is way, way too much of a topic to ignore. I did not practice, but understand the theology behind many world religions and wicca. I absolutely refused to be spoon fed religion by my grannie. That's just the way I am. I had a choice not to accept any religion or any god. Then I had a choice to accept which god, or are they all the same? No, they are not all the same. Through much study I found that the behaviors which are perpetuated by various religions are very similar, and even the practice of some to be similar in circumstances. The spiritual laws or principles are virtually the same in practice or consequence, but the attribution is what is significantly different. For example, the concept of detachment in eastern religions brings about the same behavior in people as the gospel, it just attributes the law to man instead of to God. Anyway, I'm going on and on, but you really need to ditch the assumption that you are somehow more intelligent, or enlightened than every single person throughout the history of man who has given their lives to Christ, or has worshipped any God for that matter, or even believed in the existence of a spiritual realm for that matter. Really. Do yourself a big favor; it will open many doors for you.

Plato,

What don't you get about the free will? This is easy, dude. Concentrate...God didn't determine the outcome, He just already knows what it is. The little portion of the universe that is ours, we determine the fate of temporarily, from our very souls individually, to our planet collectively, and God knows what we're going to do before we do somehow, but He does not choose for us. Ultimately however, God does step in and determine our permanent fate. Even that is determinate upon what we choose. And knowing all this time how f'd up we all are, and still not imposing His will upon us. THAT is the very definition of free will. You determine your own fate. God IS not good and evil, but KNOWS of good and evil, just as angels do. We were not supposed to ever know. God is the one who determines what good and evil is. That which is of God is good, that which is not is evil. Satan CHOSE to defy God. His decision is what brought evil to earth. Our decision brought evil to us. Satan and his demons are what the very embodiment of evil is for us as humans. If it were not for them, we would not have ever been tempted. There actually are evil spirits and there actually is a Holy Spirit which affects everything we do. You are affected by these spirits whether you invite them or not. You can do things to invite them though. You pray to God for the Holy Spirit. If you meditate without prayer, then you invite other spirits. Satan is deceptive. He does not "seem" to be evil. If he did, then he would defy his very own purpose.

------------------
God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

You assume that every single person who was ever religious in any way throughout the history of man has been so out of ignorance. This is a hideously ridiculous assumption to make.

Click to expand...

Not so hideously ridiculous in <u>my</u> opinion. You keep saying that I am failing to think "out of the box". But may I suggest that it is *you* who is trapped in a box, and a millennia-old one at that? The difficult path is not a choice to believe in the supernatural; on the contrary it is far more difficult to discard the supernatural, to see it for what it is. But it is not a choice I make of ignorance; on the contrary it is all of my knowledge that drives me to the atheistic conclusions. Finally, you are not debating just me; I am also but one of many millions, past and present, who happen to disbelieve. And this time, it is you who are suggesting that some of the brightest and most eruditic minds in history have been more ignorant than a Victorian peasant. To my knowledge, education directly correlates with absense of religious faith -- <u>not</u> the other way around.

you really need to ditch the assumption that you are somehow more intelligent, or enlightened than every single person throughout the history of man who has given their lives to Christ, or has worshipped any God for that matter, or even believed in the existence of a spiritual realm for that matter.

Click to expand...

Oh, but it's not such a bad assumption. I'm not saying that I am smarter than any believer past and present -- however, I do claim to be among a vast group of people, who, on average, are far more enlightened. (Here, "enlightenment" equals knowledge about how the world works.)

Do yourself a big favor; it will open many doors for you.

Click to expand...

Doors open because you unlock them, not because you hope they would.

<hr>

As far as your reply to Plato,

That which is of God is good, that which is not is evil.

Click to expand...

But if God is the origin of everything, then how can something be "not of God"?

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited September 27, 1999).]

I finally figured out that cool quoting mechanism that Boris always uses so here it goes :

Lori,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font>
<HR>
God didn't determine the outcome, He just already knows what it is. The little portion of the universe that is ours, we determine the fate of temporarily, from our very souls individually, to our planet collectively, and God knows what we're going to do before we do somehow, but He does not choose for us.
[/quote]

How can you say such things ? Don't you see that if something is already known then every choice that is involved is simply an illusion ?
Suppose I am hiking down a trail, suddenly the trail comes to a T-fork, if god knows that I am going to choose the right one then all I'm doing is having the illusion that I can take the left one but I will take the right one any how !
This conception takes away the evilness or goodness of any act a human can make ! If god knows that a child is going to grow up as a serial killer then it can not held responsible for its actions : it just handeled according to its predespositions who riside in gods mind. How can there be something like salvation or redemption if god already knows from the beginning who is going to be saved and who is going to be doomed ? This is (I might add) calvinism in its truest form : there are only 144000 people who are going to sit on the right side of the Lamb at the end of time and it is all predesposed ! No salvation, no forgiveness just plain determinism !

------------------
"If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

[This message has been edited by Plato (edited September 28, 1999).]

First i have to say this is one of the best threads that i have read here people.. you are teaching me a lot here. I can't use the big words that you are using, but still...

I just have some thoughts about free will..

If God knows about our "choice", why hasn't he made sure that the definition of God is clear among us? Is it because that since he allready knows what's going to happen that he doesn't care since we are all damned because of the path us humans has taken?

Or can we infact make our own choices based upon our knowledge? The comment I then have is, why is there only 2 "choices"- heaven or hell..? ( Christians point of view)

Why hasn't he appeared to us in a way to make it clear for ALL humans that God IS really here, and given us the options? ( reffering to all the religions and mythologies in the world) If he did, there wouldn't be more religions than one, and there would be no ancient religions either in my eyes...

I do have a feeling that our concept of God, if any is warped in the way that If he created us, then why didn't he "finish" the job and at least tell us who's our father..?

So there must be something, or someone that again created God.. and something entirely different that gave birth to life on earth..